religion as fear of the unknown

this just a thoght i had while smoking a cigarette… i’ll hope it makes a valid point and i’m looking forward to discuss it.

fear is a normal reaction towards unknown. fear is also expereinced by animals (i say it now, since it may be an argument to some of yours counter-arguments).

first, fear is irational and unrational. being confronted with unknown, fear is one thing we know for sure that does not help. it triggers some chimical reactions that may improve our physic abilities (ie the “rush of adrenaline”) but it also limits our capacity to ration, which is more useful when the unknown is not a dark forest. it is unrational in the sense that presence or lack of rationality does not disable/enable you to experience fear.

being born into this world, we have to know it. it is a normal thing for animals to know their environment and for people to know theirs. Unlike the animals, people have a spiritual dimension (i used spiritual to avoid a term like rationality or inteligence, terms that are more specific). we do not know how this world was created or why we were born, so our first reaction is fear. Rationality is something that we learn. We have within ourselves the capacity to learn rationality as the birds have the capacity to learn to fly, but we still have to learn it. Before learning rationality, creating a god is a good solution for the unknown. we no longer need to fear the uknown, since now we explained it, hence it no longer is unknown.

so, i find the birth of religion a normal consequence to a condition that humans (and animals!!!) share. i would further assume that the prmitive man was not very different in terms of behaiviour to an animal. It had a different brain, with some special features, but before he learned to use those special features, he was not far from the animals. As he created his first explanaitions for the world (the first religions), he also learned to use the special features of his brain. Then he refined his religions, with the help of his new abilities. Thus, we moved from primitive religions to more complex ones. Pretty much like we moved from greek and roman gods to chrsitianity. 2000 years ago, it made some sense to have god that walks the earth, but nowadays that would seem, well, irational. There is no doubt that mithology influenced christianity. Society does influence religion as much as religion influences society. What has changed, I think, is the fact that we can now see the succesion of religions. We can see how politics divided christianity in orthodox and catholic and how certain social realities divided catholics into protestants, puritans and so on.

Having developed our special fatures in the brain, we no longer need a religion-type of explanation for our world; not because we have other explanaitions, but because the more rational we are, the less we fear the unknown. I think that the number of atheists is constantly growing. I’m not saying that god will “die”, but i do believe that religion will give up its role as explaining the unknown or - to be more accurate - the impossibile-to-know.

My urine stain says otherwise: it’s green now.

Humanity hasn’t actually developed the special features of the brain and there’s something to be said about that later. Fear is a very rational response to the unknown. It is, further, very natural. It might disable our ability to rationalize situations, but usually infers that the situation should not be rationalized—in the first place. Example: You’re under attack by a pack of wolves. Do you think it through, go over your options, or do you run away?

I understand what you are trying to say, but a belief in God and religion as a rationalizing force is one of the most rational things a person can do. Religion has an idea and attributes certain qualities within the world to this idea, very rational—deduction.

I would go as far as claiming that religion is more simplified now than it was a century or more (or less) ago because it has become even more rational. The Gods did not walk the earth two thousand years ago; even according to Roman standards (The Titans did at one point, however). The Romans attributed certain names to the very ascribed characteristics of God we have today: omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, love, wisdom, beauty. Religion does not actually try to put classifications on the world, it merely says that; “above all other things, there must be a God”.

Since many seem to be laymen when it comes to theology in its entirety, you should read up on the sub-categories of the science. God isn’t just religion, it’s a process, it’s a system; it’s a rationale.

I’ve thought mainkind gave up reasooning based on urine some few hundred years ago.

There is nothing rational about fear. It’s more like an instinct. Runing away from wolves is far from rational: do you honestly believe that you can outrun them? Rationality funstions based on inputs. Knowing nothing of wolves (not even how fast they run), then indeed you would try to outrun them. Knowing that you cannot outrun them, you probably try to climb a tree. Knowing that they go for blood, you would realise that making one of them bleed would make the pack attack it, so you can get away. Fear cannot always be overcome by ration. And for most cases, it doesn’t not offer the best answer (a thing that rationality is supposed to do).

I’m not saying that religion is not rational. It is, since no serious religion is self contradicting. But their assumptions are arational (they are assumed and not the result of a rational process). There is nothing rational about the claim that God exists. It’s a guess. I was just trying to make another guess (sic!) on why do people need an explanation for the world they live in.

Hi Thinktank

I agree with you to some extent… but:

what you are forgetting is that everything is a guess…

the rule of gravity is a guess… it might not be there tomarrow… and there is no way to prove that it will… cuz none of us can see the future…

however… the rule of gravity is a justified guess… we have very good reason to believe it’s a rule…

  1. we have identified and know gravity through experience…
  2. We have never experienced the non-existence of gravity…

god however… is not a justified beliefe…

  1. It would not be logical for all religions to be true… thus some, or all, religions are false…
  2. We have not identified nor experienced god…

we cannot rationaly believe in any religion… and here is where i agree with you… When it does happen that someone chooses to believe… It’s not a rational choice… it’s an emotional/instinctual choice…

it could be fear of the unknown… it could also be lonelyness, wanting someone to talk to without being a “loony”… it could be desire for eternal life… it could be any number of things really… maybe it’s just the way the believer was braught up… old habbits die hard, ya’know…

anyway… it’s a good argument you have there… :smiley:

Mad Man: We have experienced the non-existence of gravity, ever since we went into space. And we have experienced God, or at least, a good number of us believe we have. There are already two threads which are exploring this matter, it is irresponsible to just assume that nobody has experienced God for the purposes of your argument.

We don’t experience the ‘non existence of gravity’ in space - you can ascertain the effects quite plainly. Astronauts appear a feeling of weightlessness, but they still have mass, and gravity doesn’t vanish.

There’ll probably be a hundred more threads about this, and if the internet surives a hundred years, there’ll be a billion more. It’s a fundamental issue for most of us that are philosophically inclined. While the opening thesis, ie God is the fear of the unknown, may be a bit simplistic, I assume it’s meant to serve as a stimulus for dialog and perhaps as an agent to help the poster catalyze his/her thoughts.

Those of us who aren’t superstitious (don’t mean that pejoratively, btw) will always be curious about the psychology behind religiousness. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with exploring the yearning for purpose that religions are created to fill.

tsk tsk… you should read more carefully… I said:

Before you can experience “god” you must identify “god”… so prior to assuming a religion was true… how did you expeirence “god” which you had not identified?

if you have experienced god… Then you must be able to describe the sensation…

How did you expeirence him? through sight? Hearing? Touch? Smell? Taste? Maybe telepathy?

or was it simply emotional?

then you must connect this experience with an “identety”… hmm… how would you connect an emotonal/sensationl experience to an almighty being?

“i felt a tingling in my fingertip!!! God exists!!!” or “i hear a voice in my head!! It’øs GOD!!! and he’s saying christianity is the right religion!!” or “I woke up one morning and just KNEW god was real!!”

so i’m pretty sure the people who have “expeirenced” god are full of sh*t… all it proves is that people sometimes experience things they can’t explain…

Can you justify that? I see no reason to believe it. Presumably as a child I experienced the sky long before I knew what it was.

Again, you’re asking me to repeat things that I’ve written at least 3 different ways to 3 different people in the past week, I suggest you go back and read it. I will say that you’re just completely off the ball here. “I experience light bouncing off the backs of my retinas!!! The sky exists!!”

How do you ‘experience’ the sky?

Do you know what God ‘is’?

Shalom
Bob

ask jimi… he kissed it…

-Imp

By seeing it.

Hi Uccisore

so you identify the sky through sight? or do you identify it through properties?

you experience it through sight… but how do you identify it?

If you expeirence and identify it through sight alone… a picture of the sky would then contain the actual sky within it…

if not you must identify it through properties… it must be above the ground… within a planets atmosphere… or whatever.

I experience “Hot” through touch… and identify it through properties… it must have a temperture of above x before i call it “hot”…

How do you experiece and identify god?

in the absence of the singl, most simple, “truth above all truths”, each system of believes is based on axioms. Based on those axioms we build our paradigms. And we eventually become the prisoners of our paradigms. Take god’s existence and few other things about him as an axiom, and religion (at least xtianity) wont seem ilogical at all.

well, how did we identify gravity? we expersinced it a lot, but what does it mean that we identified it? We also don’t experience particles going through our bodies, or small electromagnetic radiation, but we sure know that exists.

that doesn’t make an invalid choice. you are free to make decisiont with whatever part of your body (and please undertsand it as intended).

Hi thinktank

We identified gravity as a LAW… The law of gravity… the reason gravity can be experienced is becasue gravity is identified as “matter atracts matter”… if someone were to push you forward… you are not experiencing “gravity”… as the experience is not caused by the identity of gravity “matter atracts matter”… it is casued by you being pushed…

If you were to jump and then fall back down… the falling down part would be caused by gravity (given that there is matter beneath you)…

As for the electro magnetic radiation and particles… we HAVE experienced them!! not through the sensation of touch… but through sight… How else do we KNOW they exist?

True, but that’s why we have mental institutions… that’s where we put people who make choices outside reason and logic… they cannot function along with the rest of us “rational” beings…

And cages in the zoo… that’s were we put creatures who make choices based on instinct rather than reason…

I have 3 rules… and these rules are the ground on which i stand

Mad Man P’s Agnostic Rules

  1. I am 100% certain of rules 1-3 but I am certain of nothing else
  2. I will only believe that which has been demonstrated, or deduced from that which has been demonstrated
  3. What i believe might be wrong.

There you have it… Given that you are limited and finit the way that I am… then you will become irrational once anyone of these rules is denied…

includind rules 1 and 2?

Hi Thinktank

nice… Ur comments are thaughtful and insightful… a plesent shift

What is the identity of Gravity if not it’s law? How can you claim that you have experienced gravity if you do not use this identity (definition) ?

now this is an interresting question… one might ask… is it rational to hate someone, if you cannot identify WHY you hate them?

Is it rational to love someone, if you cannot identify WHY you love them?

When will you call something “love”? is liking someone the equilivent of loving someone a little? your inability to communicate the identity of love to me… is not the same as there being no identity… for obviously you know when your in love… so you must be able to recognize it based on an identity…

I’ve looked love up in a dictionary… and this is what it says:

I take it you are refurring to the 1st identity of love… well… there you have it… that’s the identity… Would you agree?

I can’t… I don’t believe loving someone is your choice… just like feeling hungry is not ur choice… These are your natural reaction to thus far non-specified, presumably very complex, set of events…

No i’m not… but I am implying that it is irrational to choose with instinct, rather than reason/logic… and that you would never be able to justify the choice other than by saying “I just wanted to”…

No… Rules 1, 2 and 3 are 100% certain… everything outside rules 1-3 is potensially wrong though…

Rule 3, can also be formulated as "any beliefe which is established via rule 2 is not nessisarily true… "

i understand gravity law as Newton’s law on atraction. The definition of gravity for the general public would simply be “the force that atracts all objects towards Earth”

yes and no. based on that definition, would claim that someone is not in love if does not exhibit those charatecteristics?

rationality is an aproach just like any other. why should it be the only one accepted? more, rationality (as in rational choice theory) has serious restrictions when you try to apply it in every day life.

I’m not sure I know what you mean. How would I describe the sky if I wrote an essay about it? How do I discern it from the ground? What exactly are you asking me?

Ah, yes. I acknowledge that the sky has certain properties that a picture of the sky doesn't (and others that they share, or else it wouldn't be a picture 'of the sky'). For example, it's above me, it's blue, it's made up of empty air, etc.
 Just the same: through prayer or meditation, one has the experience of being in touch with a Higher Power, which at different times to different people, has seemed to encourage, advise, condemn, or comfort people. There's other examples as well. 
 How does one ascribe properties to God? Any number of ways- these experiences allow some properties to be put on God, such as "God has an interest in communicating with me", "God is powerful" and the like. Once people decide that God exists in general through experience, they can make claims about God through [i]natural theology[/i], which you ought to check out.  Also, some folks claim to have been given special information (revelation) about God, such as Jesus for example.  
I feel like I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know. 

Then you’re a very strange person. I have proclaimed many many things to be hot, without having the foggiest idea what the temperature is. What is x, by the way? I find that when I come inside from being out in a blizzard, I identify many things as hot that I otherwise wouldn’t.

Hi thinktank

If you expand on that… the nessisary precondition for newtons law is the NATURAL law of gravity which is “matter atracts matter”. so in the end Gravity is a result of the LAW “matter atracts matter”…

I dont recall the relavance of this line of argumenation, however… :stuck_out_tongue:

It depends purely on ur own subjective definition of love… Perhaps only one of the mentioned charectaristics is nessisary for it to be “love”… or perhaps 2 or more are nessisary for it to be “love”… perhaps you feel all charactaristics should be exhibited before it is love… you tell me

I know my definition… what is yours?

When would you call something “love”?

ur answer is the equalivent of ur subjective identity of love…

I’m not arguing that rationality is “better”… only that the lack of it… is naturally IRRATIONAL… and so when you make a desicion not based apon rationality… then I am entitled to claim that ur desicion was irrational…

Now you can ignore me… and assume being irrational is “better” or equally good… or you can frown and admit that u made a mistake, cuz u believe it’s better to be rational… it’s ur choice…

“why should the rational aproach be the only one accepted?”

Cuz otherwise we would accept EVERYTHING… we would accept that you walking up and killing my entire family in front of my eyes for no rational reason whatsoever, was as justified as me killing you in return.

also… allot of lawyers would be out of jobs… :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

Hi Uccisore

I mean… how would you recognize the sky?

or as you say “How do u discern it from the ground” or a picture of it… or a memory of it… ?

Excuse my asking… but what is empty air? is that the same as “exclusivly air?” or as in “empty space?”… and what is contained in “air?”

One could argue that there is no such thing as grass, dirt, sky, beer, cars, ect… it’s all just mass… so in order for us to tell the difference between one type of mass from the other… we must catagorize them, give them identity, and we call that languedge…

the spoken languedge consits of identeties and logic… such as I = (x+y) = me

Sky = (“~me” + “above me” + “blue” + “empty air”)

you follow?

Now I want the same formula for God before I can make any kind of statement about god…

So god is “that which encourages, advises, condemns, or comforts people. ect… in respons/reaction to prayer” ?

So far “god” has been defined as a specific case of “a psychologically self-induced emotional reaction” if this occurse after the act of prayer, then it is known as “god” ??

What is the precondition for the capability of experiecing a higher power?

or rather… what is the precondition for rationally beliving that one has experienced a higher power?

Facinating… I don’t know if you noticed this little jump of yours… you just asserted something without justification… you are now assuming the “higher power” has personality so that it can “have an interrest”…

A delusion would have the very same properties (given one assumes personality)… so far there has been made no distinction…

You are aware that x usually stand for “unknown value” right?

So something is hot if it is (x) degrees… this degree is x becasue it is an uncertain/non-solid value… like you said… you might be coming in from a blizard and ur body tempreture is low… ect…

follow?

Cheers

:smiley: