I’ve always been curious about cretin large popular religious groups that seem to embrace a form of idolatry yet claim the opposite. Catholicism and Judaism comes immediately to mind but technically it seems present in all bible founded religions although I do believe that these two have taken it to the highest and most blatant form.
My question to Catholics and Jews would be, “how do you justify and defend such observations by the outside world�
Specifically for Catholics, how do you defend the observation of pure idol worship of so many artifacts like the Cross, Rosary, Saints and the contradiction to use these Saints as a go-between to pray to God when your bible says nothing about all these things, in fact it says the opposite.
Specifically to the Jews, what’s up with Words, either written or spoken, why are they so important and why does it seem to most outsiders that these are worshiped above God. Isn’t the intent more important then the actual words, cant we humans make mistakes? The story of the rabbi and the man who slandered the rabbi come to mind.
Why do Jews worship the pen and inkwell and where is there any room for God when these words and rituals seem to be your God? Most of all, what is God, a Spirit or is he flesh?
Do you Have a Cross with jesus hung on it in your church to which you look upon and pray at while or worship in front of?
Do you ware some sort of religious Jewlry which signifies the Lord your God?
do you not Hold said cross as a symble of Holyness imbeeded with gods Power and of it HImself?
Do you have religious emblems splayed in or around your Home to remind you of God and that you are a Christian?
Do you hang religious simbles in your babies room or did you have them Hung in your room when you were a child?
Do your feelings tword the religious symbals or items in your life hold any meaning beyond: Its just a piece of would or Marble or whatever?
The drawings of Jesus and painting’s of the cross do they invoke within you a feeling? More than just an enjoyment of art? Perhaps a religios want/need emotion of Holiness of sadi piece of art or item?
If you answer was yes to any of these YOU are an Idolator. As your prayer and worship is used on these things and or at them.
The church itself is an Idolator holding up the cross and Jesus’s Images as a thing to Worshiped and thought of as Holy relic…
If the church removed all Images from itself of the religion and worshiped God in barness of floors ceiling with no Images of such God or God’s only then are you worshiping the Spirit…Rather than the Item and the spirit.
And dont say: But I dont “Worship the Item” Because if you hold it in a Holy referance and as itself Holy Unto your God. It is an Item that is a form of worship. The Christians are just as guilty as the Pagans of worshiping “Representations” Of God/God’s.
Because thats what the Crucifiction “IS” a representation of the lord Jesus depicted in an image or carven in wood to be displayed as a “Idol” of Jesus and to be Held as such in reverance as God himself.
Think about it like this.
Would you ever throw your Cross away?
Or sugest to your church to rid itself of the Crusifiction Image that is displayed above the Alter? (And that So many…Maybe not you…DO infact look upon for salvation rather than looking inwards where the Holey spirit id suposed to dwell within each of you)?
Would you tell Others not to Hold there Croses and Pray to them
believeing that by doing so God will here them?
If your answers are No than those Idols of Jesus are just as Important to you as he is…Which means…Your Worshiping Idols.
Recently a book was written called THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE. If you took the fourty days of purpose and made it a law, you’d be adding to religion and making it strict. You should be spiritually led to do the fourty days of purpose. Not just going through the motions. Now with the idea of marring God and being celibate. You see people just going through the motions and slipping through the cracks. With confessing to a priest. You see people just going through the motions.
They lack the Holy Spirit. And pray to mary. This is wrong. Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to religion like only God could.
I consider myself Christian only because I endeavor to follow what Christ taught and firmly believe in these practices as everyone’s path to grow and gain knowledge of God and his Truth.
As far as the rest of your questions the answer to all is NO!
I cant even set in church anymore with all the lies and BS they teach about God and I despise what churches with bibles have done to tarnish and misrepresent the acts and personality of God.
Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit take care of the needs that bibles are commonly used for, I mean, what else was this Holy Spirit for other then to teach Gods will directly into our hearts, this is something that ussicore will not cannot answer, nor any other theist I have asked, seems to be a real stumbling point.
I’m calling to attention to the fact that the written words are not God but man and wondering why people worship bibles, crosses, saints, beads and such instead of God. The other people are everyone but the bible-believing theist IMO. Although I don’t pretend to speak for all of them, however I have herd this questioned more then once by an atheist.
I guess there are not many devout Catholics or Jewish members on this forum, although its hard to tell about Catholics as most that claim to be don’t even practice their religion, they just go to mass a few times a year because they grew up thinking they are supposed to.
Strange that they both seem to be all about worshiping the things of the flesh yet one is extremely strict and the other is so lax that its just laughable.
I dont believe that Catholics worship these things. They certainly hold these to be holy, or holy representations, but God does not exist in the cross in a paticular parrish or an individual rosary or even in the saints for that matter. Yor might be able to say this for the Eucharist, but supposedly Christ exists in the bread and wine (transubstantiation)
Here is why I can say this with some conviction. Burn down a parrish, destroy the cross, break a rosary and a Catholic can still worship God, no , they dont HAVE to go through a priest or petition a saint. Any Catholic worth his salt will tell you that. They, catholics, do in fact believe that these are just symbols and are not directly worshiped but more so a tool to worship God. The removal of these things does not, or at least sould not, affect their faith or belief because they are merley symbols
How are protestants any different in your estimation? Where is there a lack of the Holy Spirit in Catholicism? Also, do you know why Catholics pray to Mary? You make a lot of assertions, just want to know the reasons behind them…
I don’t doubt that people go through the motions, but that can happen with long-practiced rituals. Every organized religion has its symbols, liturgies, totems and rituals; they’re needed as the common ‘group language’. I don’t see practicing with them as the same as worshipping them, though, at least not as I understand people actually worship their gods. Although where you draw that line probably depends on the person.
Then why do they insist on having these icons to worship. Obviously you don’t know much about the history of Catholicism as there was many uprisings in the church over this very thing, enough to fight and die for.
And as far as the Jews are concerned, just take away their bible and pen and inkwell and see what happens to their worship, they really don’t even believe in a spiritual God, their God is the pen and inkwell and parchment, they would die without it.
This, I believe, was answered fairly well by Ingenium
Hmmm…Attacking my knowledge of Catholic history would be like me saying to you, “you obviously know nothing about Catholicism if you claim that they worship idols.” Its cyclical and kinda silly
I think you missed my point however. If for some reason Catholics had no access to the cross, were not allowed to use a rosary and it was confirmed that saints were unworthy intercessors, would this mean the end of a Catholic’s faith or belief in God? I believe a Catholic would say “no”
because God is the object of their worship not these symbols.
Observance of Catholics fondling and petting and fawning over artifacts, their obsessive behavior concerning icons of saints and the fact that they pray to saints and see blood from statues and images in everything from burnt toast to clouds. All of which seems to be condoned and even backed by the church. So many physical artifacts and images are used in worship that its hard to see where there is room for a metaphysical God.
What other evidence would you like, or do you not consider this to be evidence?
See that’s the problem, you don’t see it yet nearly everyone on the outside does, you are worshiping these artifacts, without a doubt you are. Saying you aren’t just isn’t any proof. The fact that you admit that every religion has this attitude is what I was talking about originally, I just pointed out two groups that have taken it to the highest form as a discussion point. How is preying to a saint or kneeling before a cross in reverence not misplaced worship or a form of idolitry?
So you don’t know about the uprisings and strife in the history of the Catholic church concerning these artifacts and how a pope long ago condemned this practice and had agents sent to all the churches to destroy all crossed, statues, paintings and such and after a short time the outcry of the followers demanded these artifacts and the pope finally gave in? Are you unaware of outside opinion and how unified it is about you Catholics silly worshiping practices and how contradictory it is to the very book you base your religion on?
Jews evidently don’t believe in a God that can be understood and known personally and spiritually, not sure they even believe in a spirit world of any kind. Most don’t believe in good or bad or right or wrong only Mosaic laws, 613 of them. All they have is the physical stuff and that is their only connection to God, without their writings and interpretations of ancient text they don’t have any connection to God at all, similar to Catholics without there crutches (icons). So take away all of this and you might see that they have nothing left to worship because they are far to frightened of the idea of God to actually go to the source and look. They, like Catholics, need many buffers between them and God; they don’t even want to really know him, too afraid.
I only skimmed, I admit, but it kinda looks like you just accused Ingenium of being Catholic, and sterling of being Ingenium. Blaze on ahead, you’re on a roll now, for even still, your point remains intact: What could a Catholic possibly know about what Catholics believe? Clearly it takes someone on the ‘outside’, with only a casual interest in every religion and a disdain for books, to tell other people what they worship.