"Religion is not about God"

…Is the provocative title to a book by Loyal Rue…who would name their child “Loyal” is another topic, as well as whether this name in itself messed up the life of the child enough to determine his position about “God”, whatever he conceives It to be.
I am not proposing here to make a chapter by chapter book discussion. I just wanted to share a passage which struck me based on my recent history on this site. He says that:
“Implicit in a person’s goal hierarchy are the following principles:(1) to ameliorate goal-incongruent encounters, and (2) to sustain or enhance goal-congruent encounters.”
This will remind some of Freud’s Pleasure Principle, only here “pleasure” is echoed with “goal”, so that 1 can be seen as the drive to relieve discomfort or displeasures, and 2 as the drive to sustain comfort and/or pleasure.
He says that these “meta-goals” generate “coping-process”, what I would call coping mechanisms, and which are divided into two sub-processess.(1) Is action in the world, problem focused strategy- what one might do or think if presented with an emotional (potential action) experience. You see a bear running at you and you feel the emotion fear, and the sub-process is to run like hell. (2) Are emotion-focused strategies, and these coincide with an inability, a powerlessness to solve the actual problem. The author says that:
“the point(…) is not to alter the world directly, but to alter some aspect of the self.”
This reminds me of Nietzsche ideas on “sublimination” or the redirection of emotion. The example Rue gives are: to distract oneself from an emotional feeling, to alter one’s goal hierarchy, and reappraising the original encounter. Then he says that:
“There exist several so-called emotional states that might be more appropiately classified as coping strategies. Hope, for example, is widely recognized as a distinctive emotion. We might wish to say that hope is in the lineage of desire, and therefore qualifies as a secondary emotion. But hope is not consistent with the appraisal pattern for desire- that is, it is not sustained by an appraisal for positive future expectations. Indeed, it is desire in spite of negative or highly uncertain future expectations, the very appraisal feature that decomposes desire in favor of sadness. Hope is desire where there should be none. In other words, a more coherent way to see hope as a viable mental state is to view it as an artifact of the coping process.”
…“to alter some aspect of the self…” That stayed with me.

As some of you might have read in my humble rant, certain facets of religion, which are constructed as universal to religion but which really are not, can come under criticism. Hope has been one of those aspects. It has been tied to “pride”, “ego” and “sin”. And it was interesting to me that “Hope” was understood by Mr Rue as a coping mechanism that seeks to re-arrange some aspect of the self. And even more that “Hope” is not tied to desire and expectations but that it is independent of desire and expectations.
Just as Hope is a coping mechanism, we can consider Religion as another coping mechanism, which is likely to be persuasive when the encounter facing us is with some situation which we cannot alter…if I cannot run away from the bear (broken leg) then at that point I become very much religious and in my fear pray to God for deliverance from this danger. To pray, to hope, are ways in which religion allows us at least the illusion of indirectly negotiating our problems which we cannot directly affect.
To go further with Hope; it is desire where there should be none. But why is that? Because that “hope” com,es tied to new narratives, new conceptions of how the world works, which are originated indirectly- not from direct experience with the world as is, but with a Reality behind the apperance of reality. The point to alter some aspect of the self is a means to alter also something in the world. This is that “reappraisal of the original encounter”, that he spoke about. He wrote that “hope is not consistent with the appraisal pattern for desire-”
But that should be examined. One hopes because one defers to something that is outside of our cognition but which is real. I hope that I get a job, even if I have been turned down several times and have no reason to expect, based on my experience, that this should change that, because deep down I also recognize that my past and present, which are available to my experience or recollection, are missing something. I avoid sadness by an appeal to the Unknown, an unknown that could delivered precisely the unexpected. This is a re-apparisal. It is also possible to match this to self-regulation, meaning that then Hope would be hope in something still Unknown, but with which we can negotiate. “I give you X and in return you give me Y”. X can be something that is hard for us, like loving our enemies. In fact Rue deals with Christian agape love, the love of those who are unlovable, again, as another coping mechanism, which it might be, but because it offers a trade, and therefore serves as a means to “cope” or “solve” a given “problem”. We pray, we love, we hope, as an idirect set of means to reach a direct end, a goal.
To Hope is is to expect in spite of reality, to expect where said expectation is unwarranted, and this expectation in the face of uncertainty (faith) we offer God as a sacrifice, as a self-sacrifice, a modulation of our self, a deference to something Greater yet Unknown.

What do you all think?

“I hope that I get a job”

I wonder if some of the hope discussion rests on matters of definition. One problem with the above statement is that it suggests a possible disconnect between the initial desire and the application of means to obtain that desire. Another problem is the question of what happens if I don’t get a job. Is that a cause of psychological distress? Probably, but does it really need to be? Would I stop functioning as a living breathing person? The presence of too much hope might indicate that my happiness necessarily depends on whether I get a job or not. Those are the issues with hope as I see it. Hope in its other senses doesn’t strike me as a problem, i.e. that aspect of mind that isn’t “sunken” - that sees possibilities and wills (and therefore acts to create) a better world for instance.

Everything rests on matters of definition, but the statement is only representative of a probable situation, not the measure of all situations. Personalize it according to your own biography and see if it sticks. There is often a disconnection, at least from the person’s opinion, between his means and his desire. Whether this is actually so or not doesn’t matter and we are dealing with a psychological state that arises from an opinion and not from the objective world, or the world outside of a person’s opinion. same goes with your questions about the job seeker. If you don’t identify then YOU don’t don’t but you should not deny that there are people who do feel this way, who actually do hope to find a job, and not so much because they fear that they shall stop breathing, but for indirect effects: No job-no money, no money-no food on the table, no food on the table- no satisfaction of hunger, no satisfaction of hunger-you die of hunger…so it is not some superficial concern.

I think you’ve misunderstood me. In fact I do identify - completely. I’m just saying I can do better. Isn’t that in itself the positive side of hope? I’m trying to identify the bathwater in “hope” and keep the baby. I think maybe I’ve missed out on a lot of conversation on this subject. You seem overly upset with my response, and I can’t figure out why.

Anon, please excuse me if I have been unintentionally rude, but I was not upset in any way shape or form.

— Isn’t that in itself the positive side of hope? I’m trying to identify the bathwater in “hope” and keep the baby.
O- But I was not trying to toss the water nor the baby…nothing was being judged as worthy of defenestration, at least not ny me. In fact, I have been defending Hope for a while now. To me there are no “negative” or “positive” things about Hope. Hope is a way we cope with life- that is in itself a good thing that requires no further solicitation for an apology…but that is what some pretended.

Makes sense to me.

My philosophy rests on some psychology terminology (was one of my majors at university), so I describe it according to “cognitive dissonance” (:the sense of conflict between two different cognitions–two different goals… a feeling one needs to escape the situation, along with the uncertainty of how to do so… etc.)

“Religion”, or “Spirituality”, or “Myth”, is indeed not so much about God, but about a “metaphysical” story/purpose to reality, in order to accommodate the symbolic mind’s need to label things “right” or “wrong” in order to plan for situations (with minimal “bad”…IE “cognitive dissonance” or–as one example–“goal-incongruency”). In order to feel comfortable with a planned action, one requires some “right” result (some “right” ideal/purpose/goal).

“God”, in a lot of cases, is an experience (a “voice” or “insight” attributed to some other), that one interprets as fixing a problem (which has been or would’ve caused cognitive dissonance).

First there was the “ancestor spirit” that drove the body (with absolute mental certainty/lack of doubt) during fight-or-flight-induced dangerous situations… then different gods associated with specific mindstates associated with certain tasks and/or social roles, then the monotheistic God as the superego most fitting for the environment (which was/is heavily dependent on government and/or social systems). I think the “Christian” God is a bit different though… as I interpret “him” along with Jesus in the New Testament; I see it as being much more psychological-based–the Kingdom of God is in you = the world you see arises from “in”/through/from you.

Well matt, one has to remember that the writers of Jesus biography, if not Jesus himself, grew in a post Alexandrian worldview. Greek philosophy and religion, with it’s famous “Know Thyself” probably could have had an effec in the way that God was then narrated.

Definitely. Just as the Greek tragedy was used as a catharsis of pent-up emotions (based off the Dionysian cult rituals of getting intoxicated to the point “Apollo” could no longer properly function, and then dancing “the jitters” away, but improvised to still keep people in line with a more complex social structure), I believe the Jesus story (generally, not much different from Dionysus) is itself a (tragic) story where the believer associates their own desire to be good (and the difficulty and suffering that comes with that)–a very significant thing; THE most significant thing in one’s life–with the ultimate significant symbol (a relateable human being who is the creator of everything incarnate).

Not to say the New Testament teachings don’t bring up some new (and very useful) stuff, but many themes/symbols are majorly based on Greek tradition.

Sometimes I wonder about the distinctions we can make between Dionysios and Apollo…after all the “voice” or “influence” of Apollo was felt by his Oracle in much the same way as a Dionysian reveler would have, with enthusiasm, with self abandonment, not some detached Plato-like rationalization–that was the job of other men just outside the “possessed” Oracle. If she was sophia, then these men were philosophers, and it is them that attenuate the dionysian quality of the encounter with Apollo into a conprehensible brew. Sophia/Apollo easily mingles in Greece with Dionysious.

Well (though this ignores what I think is a practical distinction of contrasting Dionysus and Apollo), I guess one could say it is all Dionysus…

but Apollo is a “side” of Dionysus which is making/experiencing “a distinction”.

IE Dionysus is experiencing (as a result of carnal factors)
Apollo is experiencing the classifying of some (mental) object according to abstractions (as a result of carnal factors).

Not to say Apollo is bad, or not deserving consideration… but Dionysus can’t be ignored (after all, all Apollo really does is guide Dionysus’ penis into “good” holes, haha).

That is a way of looking at it. Nietzsche may have made too much of a distinction on his way to making a philosophically useful construct. But when you think of the festivals to Orpheus, Dionysious, and the method of delivery of Apollo, all of them temporary madness, one wonder just what maintained the two Gods distinct. Perhaps it was the audience.

Dionysious was available to all, while Apollo had a more up-scale clientale. The reason for the madness is also different. The Oracle is intoxicated in order to deliver truth that can lead to eventual, future action, or straight up tell you about the future and it began from the command of knowing thyself, and obviously your station. Dionysious was more like a way to separate your self from your station to forget, rather than know thyself and becoming one with the Divine

…Have you ever been to a Pentecostal Church? Paul spoke of different gifts, but gifts are passed on in some way. I guess that in the Greek world this gift was passed on through the magic of madness. And I mention Paul because in the Pentecostal Church you can have those that enter into a trance-like-state in which they find themselves perhaps (I don’t particularly know of the experience in a subjective matter) in close contact to God and away from themselves, or free of themselves…interesting that Paul was founding Churches in Gree soil…how much sycretism must have taken place that survives to this day. But any way the other gift is the gift of speaking in tongues, and I guess this must have been similar to what the Oracle of Apollo did.

God then, it seems, has more than one audience and so more than one demands placed on It, but it seems that supplying the demand used to require a radical delivery. Which makes sense. How many people pray to God but really cannot tell if there has been a listener to his pleas. Instead the possessed has a tangible out-of-the-ordinary quality to his rapport with the Divine and thus can feel a certainty that calm prayers may not deliver.

I believe religion is an attempt to conjure order out of chaos. It’s all about taking action to alter your circumstances…
You go to church
You get down on your knees
You bow your head
It’s about “artificial” effort to effect fate when no clear immediate action is apparent.

This thread says religion is not about God, i believe religion is not about God, God is not a religion, he is a person. a person have a philosophy which he belief, the belief of god is the philosophy of God. religion is not the philosophy of God but the history of the pass, record by human which can be prone to error since no human is perfect, religion is a literature a history but what humanity need most is the philosophy of God for man and the universe, is economic idea for the development of humanity and the plan for the future. Religion fail to answer all that God is not the way religion perceive him.