Rights vs. Duties

As I see it the first question is the society being referred to. If it is a dictatorship or slave state of course there are no rights. So I presume we are referring to some degree of a free society.

Obligations have to come first. It is like owning a car. You may have the right to drive it but first it must work. If it is neglected, it may just die making the right to drive useless. So maintanance of the car is of greater importance because it is a necessity to insure the right to drive.

While rights should be considered as the subjective values we strive towards, obligations are what assures we maintain them. So IMO and if considered without pressure, the goal of the state is the first consideration. Next comes the obligations necessary for its creation and maintenance while thirdly is the freedom to grow and enjoy the fruits of these labors.

Why would you assume that?

You claim that rights are natural . . . but now they are only natural in a free society? Last I checked a social contract can exist in a Monarchy or other despotic systems.

Terribly confused.

X

I said that rights are subjective values we strive towards. Whether they are natural is another important question.

Of course the striving for rights continues in a slave state but the problem is the guns of the police that don’t allow it. How many “rights” did women in Iraq have under Saddham? They weren’t allowed. A free society requires obligations so as not to fall into that gutter.

Sorry, I got the Nicks confused so I was trying to fuse your arguments into a cohesive whole . . . hence my confusion.

And women had more rights under Saddam than they do in Iran. It’s all a matter of perspective. They aren’t a binary.

Also, it depends on the state. I mean, in Fascist states some groups had rights, others did not. Alternatively, one can look at Germany before Nastiness Number One and see that Bismarck had arranged for large groups of people to have rights, positive rights even (something which America still largely lacks).

Rights are not dependent on freedom, but freedom can be granted as a right.

Xunian

Moi confused with another?? Such insults. :slight_smile:

I have to disagree. You’d be surprised how quickly rights can disappear and will somehow be explained as “for your own good.” Once they are lost, they are not so easy to get back.

While freedom can be granted as a right, it can just as easily be removed under the pretext of the common good the depth of which the Dictator has proclaimed himself to be uniquely aware of.

Who needs freedom for rights when you have such a qualified expert in what is good to make the tough decisions for you?

Don’t get the Nicks confused. I am Nick Otani, of NickOtani’sNeo-Objectivism. I distinguish between natural rights, conditions of existence for the flourishing survival of humans in groups, and man-made rights which can be give or taken away by Kings or mobs or whatever. Natural rights do not disappear. They get secured by just governments or ignored or violated by unjust arrangements.

And, I think we are still working on securing those natural rights. Perhaps we always will be.

bis bald,

Nick

Und was sind die sogenannte ‘Natuerliche Rechte’?

Und ich muss mich entschuldigen. Ich wollte es nicht, dass ich die zwei Nicken verirrt.

Tschoeoeoeoe.

Die sogenante ‘Natuerliche Rechte’ sind, wie Locke und Jefferson hat genant, Leben, Frieheit, und Glucklichkeit versuchen. Ich nehnte das ‘flourishing survival’ versuchen. Aristotle meinte ‘flourishing survival’ ist ‘eudamonia.’ Mill hat ‘qualitative happiness’ benutzt. Maslow sagte ‘self actualization.’ Aber weil mensch sind so wie wir sind, wir mussen Frieheit zu versuch so zielen. Nicht Wahr?

Is tut mir leid das ich kline Fehler machen wehn ich auf Deutsh schribe. Das tut mir nicht oft.

bis bald,

Nick

Xunian - I think I have a fair idea of your position - that in a western-style democracy, for example, rights are required for practical reasons. And that they are manmade. Certainly the U. S. Constitution requires them, so any alternative I propose within that context would run counter to the present sensibility in the U. S, and of course other similar states. But that’s okay - philosophy is often prescriptive.

Firstly, some of the more salient problems with rights. One is that they are never, in practise, absolute, which causes some practical problems (albeit not insurmountable problems, by themselves). The right to life would be reasonably abrogated by most when an issue of self defense were present, to name a reletively easy case. But self defense is not always cut and dried. To be sure, we needn’t start with specific cases, for we seek a general rule, but moral rules must always be checked against their results. In effect, all ethics is situational ethics. No one would want to live in a society that precludes all killing. No one has, either, just in point of fact. If you are completely pacifist, you will eventually be wiped out, in which case you morality is as extinct as you are, and doesn’t matter any more.

The laws of a given state are, in most cases, more specific than moral rules, but less specific than the outcome of their administration, in that specific cases are regulated by several mechanisms - custom, the extant court system, popular opinion, the specific judge and jury, the quality of legal representation, the press - especially so where civil liberties - rights-specific cases - are in play. Is a specific murder going to be tried as a hate crime? Does the appeal reach the Supreme Court? Is the sentencing (the penalty for the crime) set in stone, or does the judge have leeway? Does the jury decide the sentence? These are all variables that effect the actual outcome.

This is important because, while we have taken care to include duties within our discussion of rights, we have so far not included the penalty for the transgressions against rights. When we do, the notion of rights get much cloudier than it is at first. Every moral judgement, every moral mechanism, of which rights are one, must take into account the penalty, for it is the result, or consequence, of the exercising of the right. This is why Kant doesn’t “work”. Why Rawls doesn’t (although Rawls is an improvement over his mentors - as was cogently pointed out in another thread lately).

Jettisoning rights, and relying on rules, as some Uitilitarians did, is much better. But unlike Utilitarianism, the Social Contract, when stripped of the metaphysics of Rousseau, Kant and Rawls, allows for a true and self-aware responsibilty by actual humans. It allows for evolution - it breathes. A Social Contract need not be bilateral, or multilateral (although this seems preferable) to have this characteristic. It just has to be formulated by humans, for humans, without any metaphysical mumbo-jumbo involved.

It is a tired analogy, but sports generally serve here as an example. There are penalties for infractions, without the notion of rights being necessary. Many infractions can be expressed in terms of rights, but they need not be. If you cheat, it is not important who it is you cheat - the persons do not have rights - only the game does (I mean this figuratively). The violations, when they occur, are seen as being against the rules, and not against the players.

And this is the difference. A Social Contract can be a set of rules, which must be followed. If they are not, it is the rules that are imposed upon, not the individuals. There is no need for rights. If rights evolve by custom, then they are ancilliary to the rules - a result of the rules - as opposed to natural rights, which logically precede the rules.

If child education is mandatory, if that is the “right” of every child, it is for the common good, and not for that child. (This is the common argument against childless folks who do not want to pay school tax.) The child’s rights need not be seen as being abrogated, but the society’s as a whole. If the rules are for the benefit for the group, then no individual’s welfare need be in play as a principle, although the outcome may often be similar to a rights-based social policy. This is not utilitarianism, for the majority is not the object, but the whole. There is a big difference. Utilitarian mechanisms would surely be used - this utilitarianism was not invented, but its precepts observed, and then (over-) developed. Nor, as I say, are rights precluded - they are simply not fundamental.

I would appreciate your comments, Xun, as you seem to have a good grasp of the issue.

faust

I can’t say I’ve ever been convinced that rights even exist, except as an absence of restrictions.
If there were a primitive group of people, living on an island, with no access to concepts like ‘Rights’ or ‘Duties’ or ‘Government’, how would they behave? Would they all sit around and starve to death, failing to procreate or feed themselves, until one of them discovered they had the ‘right’ to do these things? Certainly not- they’d do whatever they wanted, until someone discovered that life was better if they refrained from certain things.
Humans only have 1 right- the Right to do whatever the hell you want as long as it doesn’t violate your Duties and Responsibilities.
Telling a person what they’re rights are just makes them selfish- they see the world in terms of what they can get away with, and are always on the lookout for other people ‘violating their rights’. Instead, tell a person what they Must do, what they Must Not do, and everything is personal. They see their own responsibility in whatever befalls them, and life is better.

So to answer Thirst’s questions:
A racist, a sexist, a homosexual and an atheist all have the exact same obligations on how to treat themselves, how to treat their fellow man, and so on. We have laws and formal restrictions and punishments to handle situations when people violate those obligations in ways serious enough that they harm others. So, the question isn’t about my “right” to have an all-white or all-Christian community. The question is, will my creation of this community put others out on the street with no place to go? Will I be living up to my obligations to God, myself, and my fellow man by doing this thing? If a person justifes their life by always asking “Does anyone have the authority to stop me from doing this?” (which is what talk of rights means), they are living a small, amoral, uninspired life in my opinion.

I realize faust doesn’t want to talk with me and is directing his post to Xunian. However, I think I have a right to say what I think about what he said, if not to him then to whom ever cares.

Right to life means the right to pursue a flourishing survival within the context of not violating other people’s rights to do the same. One does not have a right to violate another person’s right, and those who do do not have a right to escape the consequences of doing so. So, a murderer who gets caught, convicted, and imprisoned does not have a legitimate claim that his or her right to life is being violated. He or she is being kept from violating the rights of others who respect the rights of others. The retaliatory use of force by the government is justified against those who would initiate the use of force against others.

Civil rights are not the same as natural rights, but they are an attempt, by man, to secure natural rights. We cannot always know specifically in all cases where one person’s toes begin and where another’s ends, so we have a complex court system with procedures and lawyers and judges to help us wade through the shades of gray. They are needed when things fall into the boundaries of that wide fuzzy line between what is obviously right and wrong. However, this doesn’t mean that some things are not well on one side or other of that line. There are self-evident truths. It is not merely a matter of relative opinion that Hitler was a threat to the flourishing survival of humans. He did not see humans as equal as humans and deserving of the same rights to life. He was objectively and self-evidently immoral. In the name of protecting human rights, the world needed to be protected from him.

Kant does not say, never kill, even in self defense. If we did allow others to violate rights, we wouldn’t be doing a good job of securing those rights for people. We would be allowing rights to be violated. So, the use of retaliatory force, to keep people from violating other people’s rights, is not a violation of the perpetrator’s rights. The perpetrators do not have a right to murder, steal, or initiate force against others. Others do have a right, through just government, to protect them from such criminals. And, as I said earlier in this thread, the categorical imperative shows how irrational and hypocritical it would be for someone who wants to violate the rights of others to complain that his rights are being violated. Punishment ought to be consequence of the violation of rights as certainly as falling to the ground is a consequence of stepping off a cliff.

A social contract which allows for slavery, even if it has the support of the majority of the people in the society, is morally wrong. There are inviolable natural rights for all humans which transcend majority rule and cultural relativism and common law.

A rule which violate a person’s natural right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is not a moral rule, even if it evolve by custom and has the support of the democratic majority.

One doesn’t have a natural right to the product of someone else’s efforts. One has a right to what one has and produces and comes into possession of by volitional agreement with others, one doesn’t have a right to force someone to give him or her something. A Baker has a right to eat his or her bread or sell it or give it away, but nobody has a right to take it by force from the baker. One has a right to apply for a job and have it if hired, but nobody has a right to force an employer to hire him or her. So, if child education is made a ‘right’ of every child, it means the teacher is a slave. His or her rights would be violated. No, that kind of ‘common good’ planning is communism. It violates the individual rights of some for the good of others. It punishes the talented and reduces society to what was Eastern Europe, or, worse yet, the Borg.

Bis bald,

Nick

Faust,
I’ll do my best to reply. I hoppe you don’t mind if I take it paragraph by paragraph.

“Firstly, some of the more salient problems with rights. One is that they are never, in practise, absolute, which causes some practical problems (albeit not insurmountable problems, by themselves). The right to life would be reasonably abrogated by most when an issue of self defense were present, to name a reletively easy case. But self defense is not always cut and dried. To be sure, we needn’t start with specific cases, for we seek a general rule, but moral rules must always be checked against their results. In effect, all ethics is situational ethics. No one would want to live in a society that precludes all killing. No one has, either, just in point of fact. If you are completely pacifist, you will eventually be wiped out, in which case you morality is as extinct as you are, and doesn’t matter any more.”

Nor should rights be absolute. Steel is useful not merely for its strength, but also for its flexibility. Rigidity is never a good path to follow.
I think of it like a painting. The canvas is culture, the rough sketch is the rights, and the paint is the law.
I believe that feeds into the next paragraph. Let’s suppose that we are painting an eye. Even without adding a hint of colour, the shape of the eye is clearly defined and recognizable. Now, the eye itself can be blue, brown, or any other colour you care to imagine but it still holds the same overall meaning of ‘eye’. I believe this is what you meant by: The laws of a given state are, in most cases, more specific than moral rules, but less specific . . . As long as the colour stays within the lines, the meaning is maintained and the eye-ness of the painting is maintained.

Ahhhh, now what happens when you transgress against a right! To me, an individual cannot transgress against any right, they can merely break laws since I define rights as the State’s duty towards its citizens.
Now, the reasons for breaking a law are many and the primary question which ought be asked is: what was the motivation? Why was the law broken? Is it wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family? Well, what if they don’t like bread, they like, uhhhh, cigarettes. Only now, instead making your family eat cigarettes, you sell them at a reasonable price and use the profits to feed your family. The shift in motivation from the first sentence in that explanation to all subsequent ones is very apparent for, though the result is the same, the reasoning falls to pieces. Now, these reasons can either be valid or invalid and, as long as the system is benevolent, it ought be able to distinguish between right-and-wrong. This is why Judges determine punishment, rather than juries, for they are men of learning and as such ought have cultivated benevolence. Sadly, moral education has fallen by the wayside, so this is no longer necessarily true.

But what happens when the State starts wildly painting with no regard for those lines? Now you have the wild legalism of the despot. For m, this is where it gets hairy. How can the State, which holds a theoretical monopoly on violence, be restrained? It can’t be. So, instead it becomes essential to make these lines the State must stay within an Immutable Law. The idea of crossing them must become Unthinkable. That’s why rights are so called, to make the idea of their violation something which is universally morally abhorrent. When a State abandons such a morality, its people rise up in revolt because they know that something is wrong with the situation.

So then, is fear of punishment the only thing keeping States from becoming unstoppable legalistic juggernaughts? Clearly not, since revolts are rare. Rarer still are successful ones. No, first off because of the indoctrination I mentioned above applies to the leaders as well. However, it goes beyond that. These rights are part of a useful contract. Citizens of a State that respects them, that they have real stake in, will outperform those of a State that neglects them. There was a factory where all workers, from management down, were given equal stock in the company. The experiment failed because workers were actually working themselves to the point of hurting themselves! While leaders might fear the punishment of a revolt, it is ultimately immaterial, since the idea of ‘Rights’ provides a huge selective advantage to States and those with Rights will outcompete those without.

I suppose you could call that Ultilitarianism. However, I would argue that it is more ‘means’ oriented, with the end merely being a happy accident.

To NickO - Firstly, the right to life “means” “the right to life”. That’s what it means. When I use that expression, it is not in response to your dicta - I mean the usage that the words self-evidently express. Your right to pursue a flourishing survival should best be termed “the right to pursue a flourishing survival”. If you wish to call an apple an orange, you are free to do so. But changing the meanings of the words I use does not constitute an argument against them. This is merely a commonsensical observation I make here, and no amount of pseudo-Kantian mumbo-jumbo floridity changes that. I do not mean to be sharp with you, but you must get past the english language if you are to move on to actual philosophising. Dude!

Within your view, are so-called “castle laws” just? You know, that I can legally shoot an intruder in my house late at night as he creeps toward my stereo or my child’s bedroom.

For the record, I always keep a round in the chamber. And I still have not seen from you an argument establishing that natural rights exist.

f

Hi, Xun. One note before I forget - in some U. S. states, for some crimes, juries do indeed determine punishments. And, as a matter of fact, this occurs even when there is no formal mechanism for it. Some U. S. states allow for a jury to consider, say, first degree murder OR manslaughter for a given offense, and juries have been known to choose which crime to convict for based upon the sentence that would be granted - a jury may not wish to see the person charged get the death penalty, for instance, and so may choose second-degree murder rather than first-degree - if that option is available. Which, as I say, it sometimes is.

You have the philsopher’s disease. You wish for the One Fundamental Principle - immutable, unmoveable - you wish to settle the issue. This is the driving force behind Natural Law - and all metaphysics, for that matter. The search for the Prime Mover of Ideas.

You sound like Plato. These learned men.

Philosophy does not drop from the sky. Neither do the decisions of judges. Read Roe v. Wade (the american abortion decision - is that famous everywhere? I do not know). Precedents. It’s all about precedents. Context. The moral rules of any society are born in a context that includes more than the musings of philosophers. But philosophers believe themselves pure - untouched by the hubbub of daily life. Plato could not have been more a product of his times. Yet he would have us believe that he knew pure reason.

No one argued the case for the Ten Commandments. Moral rules are often edicts. The Vatican, the Pharoahs, kings, emperors. In a democracy, the people, collectively, are Pharoahs. It’s going to be an edict either way. Good moral rules are designed to increase everyone’s chances at survival and advantage (advantage over the premoral state) - they are not guarantees. They are rules to regulate our claims against one another, not to eliminate them. We don’t need certainty, and certainty cannot be obtained. We need a regulating force to counterbalance self-interest in a way that benefits the group as a whole - because the group is the context within which self-interest becomes an issue. Moral rules have been used to benefit a minority, and sometimes a majority. Of course. But the remedy to “Might equals Right” is not an immutable law, it is risk management. It’s not certainty, but a process of increasing probabilities.

That’s the age in which we live, and philosophy should not pretend to stand above it - we live in the age of probabilities. We need to put aside the search for certainty, and begin the search for maximal probability. And to realize that the world is in motion - so should our morality be. Good philosophy has alway been a reaction to social life - it should not ignore reality in order to determine reality.

I’ve certainly got a bit of the bite.

But I don’t see where I argued against context.

If I have one principle behind every other, it is culture.

Man’s nature is to coexist and, as soon as that happens, culture arises.

But culture is a fluid thing, ever changing. That’s why ‘rights’ are constructs, they are only valid within their cultural setting. In Ancient Egypt, during the ‘good’ dynasties, there was a right to a burial. Since the common citizen couldn’t afford the funerary rites, it fell to the State to provide them. This right was, to them, immutable. I mean, if the State failed to comply it would be destroying many, many people.

From the modern perspective, this is absurd! But to them it was very, very real. Yet, those rights were a prime motivator for the Egyptian citizenry. I mean, you will definately work harder and fight harder (and more fearlessly) for someone who offers you eternal life.

The Irish say they have a right to self-rule, the British claim they have a right to rule over their territory. The list of conflicting rights goes on and on.

Things are always only valid within the proper reference frame.

And that’s the problem with rights!

So, you mean that these rights are immutable but temporary. I think I am just not understanding your terminology. I thought, by immutable, you meant permanent.

f

The right to life does not mean that someone has to sacrifice his or her life to provide you with what you need for life. If everyone has an equal right to life, it means everyone has a right to pursue life within the parameters of allowing others that same right. It cannot logically mean that people can go around violating other people’s rights

Natural rights that stem from the right to life, the right to pursue a flourishing survival within the context of allowing others that same right, are immutable, permanent, prior to humans. They are conditions of existence for the flourishing survival of humans. And, they don’t conflict with each other. One doesn’t have a natural right to education, to medical care, to the baker’s bread, to the products of the efforts of others. One does have a right to his or her own goods and services and the freedom to distribute them and exchange them for other goods and services without coercion. And a just government will protect those rights, not violate them.

Nobody has responded to my charge that if a social contract supports slavery, even if it has the consent and support of the democratic majority, it is morally wrong. The social contract, in order to be moral, has to respect natural rights.

Ignoring me or misrepresenting me, accusing me of changing definitions because I don’t accept your shallow straw-men definitions, will not refute me, faust.

bis bald,

Nick

We’re not ignoring you, we’re just totally at odds in our assumptions so it is rather pointless.

You say natural rights are eternal, myself and others say they are a human construct.

It seems we’ve failed to convince you on that front and you’ve failed to convince us. However, we can’t really proceed in the discussion with that fundamental disagreement in place.

I think that slavery can easily be a part of human society. Is it immoral? From a modern perspective, certainly. But what if you believe that your’s is the greatest civilization in the world . . . and what if you are nearly right, or at least right in a local sense? Then is it acceptable to civilize your enemies, but with the pricetag being slavery?

Why or why not? The slaves will live longer, safer, and have access to better ammenities. Is that not a better life?

Nick, dude. You seem to be saying here that the right to life is primary, that “natural rights” stem from this right to life. This is the most “innovative” definition of natural rights that I have heard - that they are secondary to some other right. In any case, defining them is not the same as arguing for them. If the right to life is your first principle, then you must argue for that first. Then you must show how it implies these natural rights (and it would be helpful if you at least listed what the natural rights are).

I think you are trying to make this arument. You simply haven’t done so. I will agree that if there is any right, it is the right to life. But read closely - I said “if”. That is not an argument for this right - it is a statement that if we are to allow rights, then this must be one of them. It does not establish a logical priority, however. Your ambition here has outstripped your argument. It is difficult to argue against a series of statements. It is pointless to argue with definitions - for with definitions we are talking rudimentary language, and not an argument - yet.

So far you seem to indcate that aparticipation in a free market is a natural right. I still do not see an argument for this.

I’m not sure why anyone would respond to your charge about slavery. There is some distance between a free market and slavery - or you must argue that there is not. In any event, I do not recall anyone supporting slavery as we usually define it. Why should anyone argue this point, then? Maybe I missed something. But if you are depending on some Hitler-loving slavetrader to come along to provide a foil, you may have a bit of a wait. I am sure they can be found - perhaps some board specializing in Nietzsche.

It’s okay to change definitions - to use one’s own. I only object when you do so without acknowledging it. I believe you did that - but let’s not get into a pissing contest over it.

I am not really trying to refute you - I am asking to hear an actual argument - so I can refute that.

f

Yes, this is what I’m saying, and it is not innovative. It is what Locke and Jefferson meant. And, I did present an argument that you simply can’t recognize, that from the self-evident truth of all humans being equal, qua humans, it follows that they all require the same conditions of existence for their flourishing survival, for their life. Your strategy has been to accuse me of changing definitions and of not providing an argument. You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

My argument is made in the first, second, and third posts of this thread. You simply ignore it, say a few things about my first sentence, and then use an excuse that I think the categorical imperative works to run away. You are not dealing with me.

People who wear blinders will not see everything that is there. A free market preserves natural rights because it is volitional, it does not promote getting things through the initiation of force, the violating of property rights. I explained this. You pretend I did not. This is not very honest.

You are the one promoting a social contract. I am saying that without concern for the natural rights about which I am talking, there is nothing to stop a social contract from supporting slavery, which is a violation of the principle that all humans are equal, qua humans, and have a natural right to the free distribution of their goods and services. You glibly dismiss this but do not refute it. Any honest observer here will see this.

I disagree. I illuminate the definitions to reveal what Locke and Jefferson meant. I think you simplify what they said to knock over straw men.

It’s true you are not trying to refute me. You aren’t able to. You are using misrepresentation and avoidance strategies to evade.

Bis bald,

Nick