S/A Knowledge Part 4 Cause and Effect

Cause and Effect

 In the last post, it was asked whether we could know cause and effect through the S/A theory of knowledge.  Hume claimed cause and effect were unknowable.  Hume seemed to state we essentially see the world in moments, or what I like to call snapshots.  Hume's claim is we can only know things from those snapshots, and any claim of necessary connection between those snapshots over time must be formed apart from our experience.  To Hume, we could only know things which we learned through experience.  Any connection between those snapshots which we form is not learned through experience, but by our own mind, or nature, and is something we cannot truly know.  

 I do not want to dive into the intricacies of Hume, but the basic problem that I see with Hume’s argument is it does not go far enough.  Hume claims we can know what we perceive, or experience, yet how is it possible that we discriminate among what we perceive?  A camera by nature does not discriminate among what it “perceives”.  It cannot attempt to show that this part of the picture is a table while that part of the picture is a lamp.  If Hume claims we can know things only from experience, that knowledge must come from our ability to be aware of discrete experiences in a whole.  This ability cannot simply arrive from experience.  If the initial ability to discriminate among existence is not formed from experience, yet we truly know things from our ability to identify these discriminate experiences, then we could not know anything from our experience.  Thus, if Hume’s argument is taken to its logical end, if we cannot know of cause and effect from lack of experience, we also have no recourse to know anything by our perceptions either, as the ability to discriminate among perceptions is an ability ingrained within us.

 Hume himself would have derided such a skepticism, as such skepticism allows no insight into how we actually experience and interpret the world.  If we are to buy into such skepticism, then we are left with nothing.   Under the synthetic/analytic (S/A) distinction of knowledge I can know what I perceive, and I can know what I experience.  I both can analytically and synthetically know the perceptions I experience, and the cause and effect I experience.  When I label a discrete experience, part of that label is how that discrete experience fits in with the rest of the world.  A leg interacts with the world by pushing off the ground to propel its body.  Cause and effect are built into much of our analytic knowledge, and all we need to do to synthetically know cause and effect is to necessarily justify it in our experience.  If cause is what allows an event, or effect to occur, I only need to give necessary justification that the leg pushing off of the ground caused the body to move.  If I can do so, I have given steps of necessary justification to cause and effect, making them viable terms to use within knowledge.  

 Yet, I do respect Hume for noting there are certain things we cannot synthetically know.  I cannot personally synthetically know the sun will rise tomorrow.  Someone may argue that with measurements and math we as a society can know the sun will rise tomorrow.  This is very true, IF the laws upon which we base the measurement of the universe stay the same.  Hume countered that there is no way to know that what we have synthetically experienced before will ever be synthetically experienced again.  We all analytically and synthetically know of a thing called “change”.  This is the fact that our experiences at one moment will not be the same as the next moment.  However, fortunately for us no one has ever been necessarily justified in demonstrating the known laws of the universe change.  Someone has always demonstrated that what we thought were laws were incorrect, but to our knowledge, the discovered function of matter and the universe has remained unchanged.  

 This means that science does not have to be a process of induction, but of necessary justification.  Within the context of society, we know the law of conservation of mass and energy.  Within the context of society we can know, with the proper instrumentation and measurements, how fast something will drop in a vacuum up to a certain degree of accuracy.  G.E. Moore once claimed he could prove two hands existed in the world because he pointed to his right hand, then his left.  Many people laughed at him, including myself.  Yet with the understanding of the S/A distinction within knowledge, Moore's claim, though not enunciated in the concepts above, was not so far off the mark.

 With the S/A distinction of knowledge, we can know everything?  Unfortunately, there are still many situations in which we do not have the tools or time to necessarily justify a claimed event.  I see a car pulling up to a stop sign and think, “The car is going to stop.”  The car may, the car may not.  Especially with regards to the future, how can we as humans attempt to claim necessary justified belief?  Though we may have to resort to induction, induction that does not have a firm base of knowledge behind it is no more then guess work.  This leads us to the next step in necessary justification; necessary justified induction. 

Necessary Justified Induction

 Though I have claimed synthetic knowledge is possible, and science tries to discover necessary justification first, sometimes within science and math we reach a limit to knowledge.  We see a storm which could produce lighting, yet we can't precisely show the path the lighting will take at any particular time.  If I am to calculate such a probability of the path of the lighting, it must be done with incomplete synthetic knowledge.  This inductive decision is forced upon us due to a limit to possible experience, and limiting the science involved simply because there is a limit to our knowledge would end the possibly of further useful discoveries.  Quantum physics comes to mind.  Do you like cell phones?  Without quantum physics, a theory which has a fair amount of induction in it, cell phones never would have been invented.  

 An induction is a guess at a situation.  Yet an induction that we feel is closer to the truth is one which has a reason behind its guess.  If I say, “That man is a bachelor because he doesn't have a wedding ring on his finger,” you will be more inclined to agree with me than if I stated, “That man is a bachelor because his breath smells.”  Both are inductions, but one induction sounds more plausible than the other.

 Within math and science, arguably the most respected form of induction is probability.  Probability is an attempt to determine the likelihood of an event that is outside of our means of necessary justification, but with convincing arguments as to why this probability can occur.  For example, if one could know all the forces which would be exerted on a coin when it was flipped, one would know that it would either land heads or tails.  However, a person cannot know all of the forces involved, so a probability is formed to give us a better chance of predicting what will happen.  Even though the exact forces of a pennies flip are not synthetically known, we can still establish a cogent probability from the synthetic knowledge we have.  

 In the case of the coin, we can synthetically know that the force of a thumb flick will send the penny tumbling through the air.  Further, we synthetically know that a penny is relatively well balanced, so the flip rotation is uniform.  Finally, we synthetically know that it is almost impossible for a person to flip a penny from the same height with the same force uniformly, and even a slight variation in the forces can cause the penny to land facing another side.  Due to these things which we are necessarily justified in believing, we formulate the odds of a penny being flipped as having a 50% chance of landing on either heads or tails, as none of the forces that we know are involved influence one side being face up over the other.  

 Though one may calculate these odds, what if I flip the penny ten times and it comes up ten times as heads?  The reason for the formulation of the odds was because of the necessarily justified information we used above.  If the information involved in the penny flip is the same as above, then the odds should be 50%, even though all ten tries the penny flipped to heads.  It is a low chance that with 50% odds, a penny would flip onto one side ten times, but this does not necessarily justify that the odds aren’t 50%.  Any refutation of necessarily justified odds must be necessarily justified as well.  

How would one go about refuting odds?  If the premises one used to construct the odds in the first place are necessarily justified, then new information introduced which would invalidate this necessary justification would most likely impact the odds.  Thus the same challenges to synthetic knowledge apply to the challenges to odds.  For example, let us say a person has mastered how to flip a penny so that it will come up heads 99 out of every 100 flips.  If this is the case, notice this eliminates the consideration within the calculated odds that people will not be able to control how they can flip the coin.  With the new information of a person being able to control the flip, the odds of 50% are not necessarily justified, and refuted when this person is involved.  Thus, odds are changed when a necessarily justified refutation of earlier claims enters into play.  
 The S/A theory of knowledge leads us not only to a necessary justification, but also a means to valid cogency.  As many of our decisions are inductive, I find this to be an invaluable contribution, and believe the tool of valid cogency is one of the best consequences of the theory.  

Personal Identity

  The last point of S/A distinct knowledge I will address is the specific identity that leads into personal identity.  A specific identity is when an identity is classified as someway separate from all other identities.  The most basic form of a specific identity is a specific “that”.  A specific “that,” is a very a non-general identity which is different from all other thats.  What causes us to first label a specific“that”?  It is the fact that a specific“that” interacts with the existence around it in a unique way.   

 Specific identities come about when we want to keep an identity in our head as something different from all other actual and potential identities.  As an example, let us say that I see two identical metallic orbs.  While I am facing North, one is to the right of myself, the other is to the left of myself.  To give a specific “that”, I must find something which makes one orb distinct from the other.  The only property that is different between the orbs is their location.  Their location is their relation to one another and other existences, and what they are interacting with at the time.  Currently, it seems that the important difference about each orb is only the property of its location.  Yet what if each orb changed exact locations?  Someone moves them very precisely as I watch.  Is the orb on my right not exactly the same as the that on my left?  If such a perfect mirror could exist in nature, there is still one thing which we use to distinguish a “that over there”; its past.

 There are two ways in which we may form a personal identity.  We determine a personal identity from the fact that one identity is separate from all other existences that we know of, synthetically or analytically, by its current properties.  The second way, is we include the past of the existence within the identity.  I can enter into an antique shop, find a table with a particular flower pattern on it, and label it as “that pretty table in the antique shop”.  This analytically entails a definiens which is a personal identity.  I know “that pretty table in the antique shop” without any reference to its past, but simply by the fact that it is an identity in the shop which is different from any other identity at the time.

 After stating that I synthetically and analytically know “that pretty table in the shop”, I go up to the store keeper who has worked there for over five years.  We talk about the table, and the store owner tells me the table's past.  The table used to belong to a grandmother of his, and its proper name (what the analytic context of those knowledgeable about tables label these types of tables) is a mahogany jasper, as the table is made of mahogany, and the flower design are jaspers.  In fact, his grandmother liked the table so much, she called it “Betty”.  His grandmother used to have the table set up by the front door, and she would always put her famous chocolate chip cookies on it in the evening for guests to help themselves to when they walked in.  

 Now that I have such information, I can include this information in with “that pretty table in the shop”, by now calling it “Betty”.  However, after learning the further past of Betty, I ask myself, “Did I really know Betty to begin with?”  It depends on what type of context I am talking about when I stated I knew Betty.  Within my context of my first experience with the table, I did indeed know what the table was at that time.  I also knew enough about that particular table to set it apart from all other types of tables within that room.  What I could not know was its past according to certain peoples experiences.  When I first labeled such a table, the past was inconsequential, so further knowledge of the past does not negate my knowledge of the table, but only adds to the knowledge of the tables past.

  This is important to note because I can say that I know something very specifically without intending to communicate that I know everything about it.  There is nothing wrong with stating I know Betty, but that I know Betty differently then other people.  The only way I could misstate my synthetic knowledge of Betty is if part of its definiens would be contradicted by further experience of the table, or the synthetic reality of the table did not correctly match my analytic definition of the table.  Thus, in an alternative example, if I examined the table more closely and found it to be a dresser, than I would be forced to admit I wasn't necessarily justified in it being a table by making a snap judgement.

 Thinking back, how is it that I and the store owner reconciled our two different analytic contexts of Betty?  The analytic context about the identity may be different, but two people's different contexts of a specific“that” have certain properties about a specific“that”'s definiens which makes up the identity that each of us must necessarily link to the same existence.  The main factor was that we were both referencing the same table in the corner of the shop.  As we have evidence that we are discussing the same existence, our identities can be put out for each other to increase or change the knowledge of the table.  

 Yet the above examinations of specific identities are still simple.  One tricky problem within philosophy that questions specific identity is: Theseus' ship.  Theseus buys a ship and sails the seven seas with it.  However, as he sails, planks of the ship begin to rot.  One plank is replaced with another over the years, until one day, not a single plank of the original ship makes up the current ship.  The big question is, is this still Theseus' ship?  

 If what we have explored above about specific identity is correct, a change in the existence of an identity only adds to our understanding of the identity, and does not take away from it.  Notice that Betty had actually changed over the years before I encountered it in the shop.  At one time the tables colors were more vibrant.  But the past of the table does not negate my identity of the table, only adds to my knowledge of the identities past.  It may be true that the existence of the table has changed, but the existence of the table has not changed so much that the identity or classification of Betty is destroyed.  I can learn new things about Betty, the fact it was used as a place for cookies by a grandmother, then later the fact that it has a gash on its underside.  This information only adds to, and does not negate the original identity of “that pretty table in the antique shop”.  

 The same goes with Theseus' ship.  I could board Theseus' ship for the first time one year after Theseus has bought it.  By this time, several of the original planks have been replaced.  If I walked around with one of the swabbies and he told me, “Yar, this here mast were blown down in a hurricane!” I would understand that the context of “this mast” would not be the original masts existence, but the identity of the ship's mast in general.  Neither the fact that the entire mast was replaced, nor the fact that this had changed the existence of Theseus' ship from when he bought it, would make myself, or Theseus for that matter, state that the ship I am currently on in the story is no longer Theseus' ship.

 Yet this is not really the truly tricky part.  Let us further imagine that as the planks of Theseus' ship are removed and replaced, but the original planks are kept in a storeroom.  Once all of the original planks are replaced, the original planks are taken out of the storeroom and rebuilt exactly as they originally were.  Which ship is Theseus' ship?  

 When we ask this question, we are essentially asking, “What do we analytically mean when we say, 'Theseus' ship'”?  Fortunately, once we define what we mean by Theseus' ship, we have our answer.  If we define Theseus' ship as the one Theseus currently uses, then his ship is simply the one Theseus synthetically uses.  If we define it by ownership, we say both ships are Theseus', if he still owns the planks.  If we say Theseus' ship is the original existence minus the new nails, then the rebuilt ship is his.  Of course if we state Theseus' ship is the original identity, how long into the identity do we consider the identity “the original”?  As soon as Theseus bought it?  As soon as a plank had noticeably aged?  

 The answer is, “It's up to us.”  Theseus' ship and personal identity is not really an issue of synthetic knowledge.  It is a problem of identifying the appropriate analytic knowledge.  The appropriate analytic knowledge is that which would enable the best communication and usefulness of the term within the analytic and synthetic context one is in.  If I'm sailing on Theseus's ship one year after Theseus' bought it, stating the ship is not really his ship as the existence has changed, creates an identity which disagrees with the general use of ownership and the current reality.  Such a statement only confuses communication and goes against the current analytic context.  I'm sure Theseus lawyers would also agree.
 However, if Theseus laments after repeated replacements of planks, “Its not really my ship anymore,” then we understand Theseus considers the repairs to have destroyed the original existence of the ship to where it can no longer be called by its original identity.  Thus Theseus' ship now and in the past become important identities.

 With specific identities explored, personal identity is found to be simply a specific identity.  Who am I?  What do I mean by this?  Who I am right now?  Ten years ago?  Do I mean the existence, or the identity?  Theseus' ship relates to us well as scientists have discovered that every single atom in your body is replaced over the course of eight years.  If we took those original atoms and reconstructed yourself as you were eight years ago, which person would be you?

 Like Theseus' ship, how you wish to establish your own identity is up to you.  Me?  I'm not the same person I was eight years ago.  I have memories of that dead existence.  All I can do is honor that existence's memory and his wishes for the future.  In my definition of personal identity, I am synthetically justified in stating I am not the man I was eight years ago.  Yet if I define myself as being the same as I was eight years ago as long as I have some of the memories of myself eight years ago, then I am necessarily justified in believing I am the same person as I was eight years ago in that way.

  Thus if someone says they know me, yet they only met me today, I understand what they mean.  They don't mean they know my past, they don't mean they know every single thing about my existence, they simply know me enough at that time to be necessarily justified in separating my identity from the rest of the identities in the world.  Any further experience of me will simply increase their knowledge of me.  I am the same as a “Betty”.  

 This ends the coverage and basic application of the S/A theory of knowledge.  The last section is an examination of some of the general critiques thrown at theories of knowledge, and an examination of where philosophy can go from here if this theory is correct.  I hope you've enjoyed the read so far, and I appreciate all the feedback!  (Continued in S/A Knowledge Part 5 Final Critique)

this theory relies on a fallacy. your “necessary justification” is saying we will just ignore the inductive fallacy that we must commit when we make claims about the future.

-Imp

Thanks for the critique! You’ll have my reply tomorrow.

Impenitent, I believe your criticism of this section is essentially a defense of Hume. You seem to state I circumnavigate Hume’s claim that, “We can only know what we immediately experience,” through a definition game. I will attempt to show this is not the case.

 First, a very important part of my claim is the first section you quoted.  You returned with, “[b]no, we can not know anything but the immediate experience. logically for hume, that's all... [/b]“

 Reread however that I am stating Hume's logic cannot lead to any knowledge at all.  I'll put it into different words, as I admit I may have not been clear.

 As you commented, Hume sees knowledge as a moment to moment realization.  Any connection between moments is done completely in our head.  There is nothing within our observations of the moments that force a necessary link of causation.  I liken it to taking photographs.  Hume seems to believe that we take snapshots of our life, then order them in our head.  However, there is no necessary connection between the snapshots.  The snapshots themselves do not ensure that the positions of the previous snapshot caused the current positions of the next snap shot.  I agree with this.

 However, with Hume's thinking, Hume cannot claim that we can discriminate and know about anything within any one snapshot we take.  Let us say I take a picture of a house.  In that moment, I claim I know that what I see is a house.  What in the experience that I perceive designates it to be a house?  What apart from my mind or nature, purely within the experience of the perceived light, causes me to discriminate among the light and actually claim, “I know this to be a house?”  If Hume's reasoning stands for why we cannot know a causal connection, (one picture necessarily causes the position of the next picture) then his reasoning also forbids anyone from discriminating within the experience we currently have (one picture necessarily allows us to discriminate, or know anything within it).  

 Essentially Hume must ask, “What within our current experience necessarily causes us to know things within the experience?”  A camera has no knowledge of its snapshot.  It simply takes the picture, and cannot know or comprehend of a house within the mix of light.  That is because nothing within the experience of the light necessitates that one discriminate within the light, and make claims of knowledge.  Hume may have stated we can only know our immediate experiences, yet if we have no necessary recourse to discriminate among our experience, just as we have no necessary recourse to connect causal events, we cannot claim any knowledge at all!  I could not even communicate to you the idea of experience, as all humans would be are camera's taking pictures.

 This conclusion is absurd.  If we could not discriminate within existence, we could not even communicate!  Yet we are communicating, and we know this.  Therefore Hume's theory of what counts as knowledge is useless to us, as Hume describes only experience, not how we know from our experience.  

 The S/A theory of knowledge states we can only know from our experience, as the only input we have is experience.  Yet the theory goes farther by actually explaining how we discriminate within our experience to form claims of knowledge.  I claim we can know things from our experience, and any knowledge not based upon experience falls into synonymy or absurdity.  This is far superior to Hume, as Hume's reasoning cannot explain how we know from our experience, as there can be none under his logic.  The only necessary thing Hume can show is that we experience.  As this fact does not give us what knowledge is, or the method upon which we discriminate among existence consistently, the S/A theory of knowledge can fill the void.

 You next reply with, “[b]we are left with nothing, but we don't want to admit it... analytical knowledge is nothing but a game of definitions that tells nothing about anything beside the definitions. synthetic knowledge is trying to match the language with that which is experienced which never is completely done... forever chasing platonic forms... [/b]“
 
 This leads me to believe you did not read the section where I go over analytic knowledge.  There I demonstrate that you can have analytic knowledge that falls under circular synonymy, or meaninglessness, yet you can also have analytic knowledge based upon experience that allows the S/A distinction of knowledge to occur.  As you have not criticized that part yet (and I don't blame you if you skipped, this thing is a long read) check it out and see if you agree or disagree with my assessment.  Also, check out my definition of what necessary justification is within part one, as you cannot understand what I mean by necessary justified induction before you know what I mean by necessary justification.    It has very two marked steps to it, so can easily be confirmed or refuted.  Though I may be using the terms synthetic and analytic propositions within the paper, I have established a new way of using these definitions by creating the new terms, synthetic and analytic knowledge within the earlier sections.  If these three terms stand, necessary justification, synthetic knowledge, and analytic knowledge, I believe I can defend all the points you made.  Until you can show you understand and effectively criticize those terms, I believe my points in the rest of this section stand, or at least cannot be honestly addressed yet.

consider it done.

it is a nice effort, but the argument fails…

as I said: “this theory relies on a fallacy. your “necessary justification” is saying we will just ignore the inductive fallacy that we must commit when we make claims about the future.”

-Imp

At this point, it is clear you have not read my previous sections in this paper. As such, you are attacking straw men. I do not use Kant for anything other than some of his contributions toward the idea of analytic and synthetic propositions. I clearly told you in the last reply that I created three new terms, and that the argument relies heavily upon them.

 I am not criticizing Hume through traditional knowledge, I am criticizing Hume through my proposed S/A distinction of knowledge.  Yet if you do not understand my theory, and how I am using it to criticize Hume, how can you argue against my points?  You need to understand where I am coming from first.
  
 Some examples that show you need to read the rest of the paper are:  “[b]calling an experience something does nothing but name it. names are nothing but a language game which exist entirely outside of experience... [/b]“  My paper clearly argues we can have analytic knowledge, almost identical with definitions, that are formed from experience.  These definitions can then be used to establish synthetic knowledge through necessary justification.  As you have not attempted to refute the argument I gave at all, you don't know where I am coming from.  To say my point is wrong before even reading it, because you've put forth your own argument...doesn't work.
 
  “[b]nice attempt to introduce a priori synthetic judgments in the back door.[/b]”  Once again, if you read the prior sections, you'll find my knowledge is based upon experience.  If this is similar to a priori synthetic judgments, it wouldn't be introduced through the back door, it was introduced earlier in the paper. 
  
 The final straw man:  [b]I have criticized kant before... check out [journal.ilovephilosophy.com/Arti](http://journal.ilovephilosophy.com/Arti) ... f-Faith/36   I read it and I understood it. kant never refuted hume. necessary justification is neither necessary or justified. illogically connecting names to that which exists outside of naming as to trap the essence of the thing named is folly... [/b]

  I am not repeating Kant, but have an entirely new theory.  Please do not assume I am presenting the same arguments as Kant, when I am not.

 Now to Hume again.  After you read the prior sections, come back and this will be a little more clear.  

I said: However, with Hume’s thinking, Hume cannot claim that we can discriminate and know about anything within any one snapshot we take.

You said: sure he can, but that it is only known immediately and in the attention span. nothing more.

 You'll find that my theory can be condensed down to:  I experience.  I also discriminate among experience.  I see things in front of me, then I label them.  This is analytic knowledge.  Synthetic knowledge is when I, through necessary justification, link my prior identification to a later experience.  Though I give this summary, read the rest of the paper and how I got to this summary before you criticize it.  
 
 When Hume claims we know things from experience immediately and in the attention span, what does he mean?  I see a house and I know that is a house right then and there?  How do I actually know that what I experience is actually a real house?  What process did I go through?  Did I simply say, “I know it is a house?” with the only justification being, “I experience the impression as such?”  That seems a big leap of faith there.
 
 Hume states that within experience, we have impressions.  If you'll notice, Hume's use of the word “impression” seems identical to my use of “discrimination” when I refer to existence.  The moniter is a discrimination I make within the entire existence I experience.  Hume would say I have an “impression” of the moniter.  
 
 But what within immediate experience necessarily leads to an impression, or discrimination within existence?  According to Hume, there is no reason, we simply do it.  Just as we make connections through cause and effect.  As the same reasoning that refutes cause and effect can be applied to impressions, the use of impressions for knowledge, in the traditional sense, is as fallacious as using cause and effect.
 
 According to Hume then, and correct me if I am wrong, it would seem that we have knowledge of our impressions of experience, not knowledge of the experience as a whole.  Yet, we have established that anyone basing knowledge off of impressions is the same as using cause and effect.  Any such claim to knowledge does not come from the experience itself, but from our own minds simple innate ability to impress upon experience.  If this is the case then, Hume gives no means of knowledge in the traditional sense, and hit theory is useless in establishing a traditional knowledge.  Thus in answering your point, Hume cannot say we “discriminate and know about anything within any snapshot we take”.
 
 A camera simply takes a picture, but it does not have any impressions.  I am stating, in earlier sections of this paper, we do have impressions, or we discriminate among existence.  This innate ability allows us to establish definitions, then attempt to match these definitions to future existences.  This is the interplay between synthetic and analytic knowledge, and necessary justification is how one can differentiate a belief in synthetic knowledge, versus having synthetic knowledge.  Read the rest of the paper and you'll see, “[b]and here you make an unwarranted leap of faith that the thing in itself exists as perceived...[/b]”...that I don't believe knowledge needs to be identical with the thing in itself.

then with what does your “knowledge” have to be identical? a preexisting idea?

-Imp

Impenitent, you need to stop flatly assuming you understand what I am talking about when I have told you you are missing some points. Twice now, I have asked you to reference how I define synthetic knowledge, analytic knowledge, and necessary justification within my paper. Twice now, you have not cited my words, but Kants. You assume my paper is Kant in a different way. Yet you never demonstrate how this is. All I see is, “You are Kant and I have refuted Kant.” That is a straw man. You should know this. If you want to discuss with me, you need to go back through, see how I define the terms being used, then enter this conversation either A) disagreeing with my labeling of the terminology as such, or B) disagreeing with the logic the terminology results in. You have done neither, and have only assumed the ideas presented here.

yes I understand that. the link from analytical to synthetic is still not created… just because you call it such, does not make it so. “

 Actually, I made this very clear in the first sections.  After discussing Gettier, I demonstrate that we can know analytic propositions.  As such, I theorized they could be used as a link into synthetic knowledge.  I show how they can be used as a link through necessary justification.  You have not written my definition of necessary justification once, or argued against it as I have defined it.  Further, I show the only analytic knowledge which is viable within this link, is analytic knowledge based upon experience.  I do not simply claim a link between the analytic and synthetic from thin air.  As you have not refuted the reasoning behind the link, I assume you do not know what I am talking about.

and you are trying to establish synthetic knowledge based entirely upon analytic definitions. it doesn’t work that way.

 “It doesn't work that way.” Is not an argument that addresses the topic I have presented.  I demonstrate in section one why synthetic knowledge is based upon analytic knowledge.  You need to present a reason why I cannot argue for this link within the terms I use, not Kant.

I have read it many times (and in many forms before yours)

 I'm not claiming you haven't read Kant.  I'm also not claiming what I've written is Kant.  Lets focus on the meat of this paper, and stop pulling arguments in that I don't use.

"yes you are but you aren’t familiar enough with kant or you wouldn’t make this claim. "

Considering you haven't taken my ideas, my words, then demonstrated my words to be identical to Kants, this claim is wrong.  If you wish to show that my words are Kants, then show it.  But assuming my words are Kants without demonstrating them to be such, is fallacious.  Go through my section one and two, find how I define synthetic knowledge, analytic knowledge, and necessary justification.  Then demonstrate why they are identical to Kant.  Otherwise any reference you use to refute Kant, will only be seen as a straw man.

no, that is not analytic knowledge. analytic knowledge is playing with the definitions of terms.

 Once again, straw man.  You've set up the definition of analytic knowledge the way you want, not in the way I defined it in the paper.  If you disagree with the way I have defined analytic knowledge, demonstrate you know my definition of analytic knowledge, then demonstrate why the arguments I used to arrive to this conclusion, are flawed.  You have not done this.

I said: Synthetic knowledge is when I, through necessary justification, link my prior identification to a later experience.

You said: “which is nothing more than a kantian a priori synthetic judgment.

 A priori means, “independant of experience”.  Within the terms I have defined, synthetic knowledge would be when I link my prior identification of an experience, to a later experience.  I do not support any a priori synthetic judgement anywhere in the paper.  The statement above was a summary, and not as specific as it could be.

I said: When Hume claims we know things from experience immediately and in the attention span, what does he mean? I see a house and I know that is a house right then and there? How do I actually know that what I experience is actually a real house? What process did I go through? Did I simply say, “I know it is a house?” with the only justification being, “I experience the impression as such?” That seems a big leap of faith there.

You said: "it only exists momentarily "

What does that mean? What is “it”? Knowledge of the house? How do we know such knowledge exists only momentarily if we do not even know how we obtained knowledge of the house? How do we know anything from our experience? You ignored all that I said above and simply repeated the same line you did last time. Show me how it exists momentarily, and I will gladly discuss. Saying it doesn’t make it so.

and that’s all you have… the impression. making the leap to saying the impression is identical to some idea is a leap, not proof. making the leap to claim the idea of the impression is Truth is not proof. you have an impression that lasts a moment. nothing more. that’s why hume is the dustbowl empiricist… everything vanishes as if it were a dustbowl…

I agree that linking an impression to an idea, without a valid reason is a leap, not proof. I actually show how we can make that connection with the valid reason of necessary justification. You need to demonstrate why my use of necessary justification in making this connection is flawed. You have not done this. Further demonstration that you do not understand my paper, comes about in claiming that I imply linking an impression, or a discrimination within existence to Truth. I never do. In fact, I state that this theory of S/A knowledge gives us the best we can get, but that Truth, the capital T, cannot be found under this theory. The knowledge we obtain may in fact not be truth, but it is the best tool we have of possibly obtaining it.

I said: But what within immediate experience necessarily leads to an impression, or discrimination within existence? According to Hume, there is no reason, we simply do it. Just as we make connections through cause and effect.

You said: “there is no cause or effect. there is the expectation of the future resembling the past. that tells us nothing about the experience itself or what we experience (the thing in itself) but it tells us about our expectation or habit.

What are you arguing against here? I have written previously that I agree with Hume’s assessment that cause and effect cannot be gleaned merely from our experience. To clarify, what I mean by experience is the picture. There is no mind behind the picture. There are just several pictures, as Hume is claiming. Any necessary connection is wrought by our mind, as Hume claims. I was simply showing above that the same reasoning applies to impressions. Impressions, or discrimination within existence, are from a mind that is interpreting a picture. There is nothing within the picture, or experience, that necessarily causes us to discriminate, or have an impression, within the entire experience. A camera has no impressions, and is a pure “being” of experience. The impressions are also, “expectation”, or “habit”, which means using impressions as a form of knowledge also fails under Hume’s reasoning. Because this leaves us with no means to knowledge, and in fact, leaves no real definition of knowledge, the reasoning that our mind cannot be used as a means of legitimately labeling the world, or obtaining knowledge as I demonstrate within the paper, is not refuted. I claim knowledge is from the mind, but that this mind must use existence as its template.

 As this is new material, I don't think that comes across clearly within this small section.  I am not refuting Hume's assessment of traditional knowledge.  I already agreed that traditional knowledge was dead with Gettier.  I am refuting that Hume's assessment of traditional knowledge applies to the S/A theory of knowledge I have proposed within this paper.  Not Kant.  =)

 I hope this shows that we are both in agreement that Hume refuted traditional knowledge, but that Hume did not actually leave us any definition of knowledge in the process.  You seem to agree with this when you refer Hume as the dustbowl empiricist.  If Hume claims knowledge is experience without a mind behind it, I must disagree.  Otherwise a camera would know what picture it took.  I am claiming that knowledge comes from our experience, and that this knowledge obviously must form from the mind.  However, there is a huge difference between making whatever we want to be knowledge, and a system that can consistently work and bring us closer to better communication, and control over the world.  This system I have proposed explains, and helps further our ability to label the world.  We do discuss ideas, we do know things, and this system explains how we can know such things without running into many of the problems I see.  

 My final request for further conversation is, put my words into your understanding before you argue against them.  For example, “If I understand you right, you're saying x.  If this is what you think, then I disagree because of y.”  This seems to be our biggest source of disagreement; that we are not understanding each others terms and points.  Peace, I'm enjoying the conversation.

as am I…

-Imp

Impenetent, you negated your entire argument through these words: “I don’t accept your definitions” In saying such, you confirm my claims that you have been using a straw man argument. All of your argumentation is still against Kant, not as I define the terms. Your whole foray into Kant is needless, as you simply don’t accept my definitions. That’s all you need to say. If you don’t accept them, then we cannot enter discourse, and you cannot criticize my points I make through the definitions I use.

 Your main reason for disagreeing with my definitions is because they are not Kant's definitions.  You continually have tried to demonstrate, simply by stubborness, that my S/A distinction within knowledge is somehow an a priori synthetic judgement.  I have told you repeatedly that I do not believe any synthetic knowledge can be obtained a priori.  If you had read my previous posts, which it is very clear by this point that you did not, you would understand this.  You say you have read it, but you have not cited any of the previous posts, and your lack of understanding where I am coming from only adds to the evidence.  

 You seem to be the sort that comes to a debate with the full intention of proving someone else wrong with the tone of insulting someone.  I'm not going to get drawn into the ego business.  Any good philosopher comes to the debate with an open mind, but yours has been closed, by your own admission, to my ideas almost from the start.  Even though I disagree with you on your tirade into Kant, I do appreciate your critique of the way I presented Hume.  Looking back, I believe I need to state my intention of including Hume within the paper, is that his conclusion leaves no actual theory of knowledge, and this leaves us nowhere.  My intention was to show that knowledge comes from the mind's interpretation of existence, and that we can find the best way to establish an interpretation of existence that allows us to better function in the world.  The way I have written on Hume now could imply that I disagree with Hume's conclusions on traditional knowledge, which I do not.  For that, I thank you.

  However, you have left the discourse with your admission that you are unwilling to look at the definitions I have established.  You have a problem with my use of the terms, analytic and synthetic knowledge, yet if I called them analitica and synthetica, the meaning of the definitions would still be the same.  Yet, you cannot agree to the meanings I have placed forth, and the only reason why you disagree, is because they are not Kant's meanings.  I agree with you on almost everything about Kant, the problem is it simply isn't what I've proposed in this paper, and doesn't critique what I am trying to put forth.  This is unacceptable in honest discourse, and we cannot continue the discussion.

good luck with the paper, I’ll be interested to hear how your professor critiques it…

-Imp