Saving God

[jchristian]

W i l l T h e R e a l G o d P l e a s e S t a n d U p ?
By John Christian
[ Extract from http://www.savinggod.com ]

Before you start to read the articles on this site, I mention “God” a lot in this site. I want to clarify what I mean by “God” since there are so many variations of meanings.

Church Days
I was raised heavily involved in the mainstream Christian Church. For those raised in similar environments, you would no doubt be aware of the many variants of the God figure that is preached from the pulpits. The Catholic God forgives when you give confession, the Baptist God forgives when you call on the name of Jesus. One God will love and accept you if you’re baptised and the other if you give 10% of your income to the institution. Even within the confines of the one basic religion of Christianity there are many faces of the one God indoctrinated into the minds of the loyal Sunday congregation.

Islamic Connection
My wife was born into a Turkish Family with strong Islamic influence. The Muslim religions are just as widespread and seemingly contradictory to each other as Christian denominations are. Even the Islamic icon Mohammed stressed that after he is gone the Muslim religion will separate into smaller sub-religions and that actually none of them will be the true Islamic religion.

Jewish Version
The Jewish religion talks of the God of the Law, a God who judges by the book and no margin for grace.

Please Stand Up!
So who is GOD really? Each religion will fight to the death that they have the correct interpretation of the Bible, Koran or Torah or whatever - so it doesn’t make for a healthy debating environment to attempt to discuss these matters between parties. I’ve been there. I was once in a conversation where a Christian friend of mine wanted to label my beliefs with name. Was I a Christian or since my marriage am I now a Muslim? I began to explain to him what I have come to believe after having the pleasure of getting to know the Islamic religion quite well as a result of my marriage. I mentioned to my friend that I didn’t believe there was any difference between the religions - there is only a difference in peoples egos. He said of course there is a difference – Christian’s worship the God of the New Testament, Islam worshipped the God of the Old Testament. I told him I didn’t know God thought - “Shit, I gotta change my religion, get baptised, repent and all that - 0 B.C. is coming quick…”. I’ve studied the 3 main religions in some depth. One the surface they are different, widespread like the base of a pyramid however as you get more mystical in each, they all meet at the apex of the pyramid to tell you one thing. God simply IS!.

Lets Get Down To It
Almost all these religions agree that God is everywhere and in everything. My personal belief is that everything we do, see, smell, hear, touch, feel, believe, create and everything in between are facets of the God that pervades every atom of the known universe and beyond.

What is a stark contradiction between the religious versions of God is that most religions agree that there is nowhere where God is not and yet still continue to make a seperation between God and the world – and most importantly – God and ourselves. There is no difference.

Every morning we wake, we are basking in the glory of God – God is the eternal energy that cannot be created or destroyed.

So now you know what I mean when I say God, its safe to read on. However, I would love to discuss any of this in the discussion forums.

T h e C r e a t i v e P o w e r
By John Christian
[ Extract from http://www.savinggod.com ]

As I have evolved in my path, one question has always begged an answer regardless of what beliefs I held at the time… That question is simply in regards to creation - “Why All This?”.

Many Moons Ago
When I was in the Church scene, the question “Why?” took its form into something like:
“Why would God – who is perfect and all knowing – create a world where the inhabiants are sentenced to death from birth and a percentage of them will burn in hell, the lucky others wise enough to know their creator would spend eternity with God in eternal bliss?”

Double-Speak
It didn’t make sense. What kind of God needs such an egotisical boost? What kind of God who is capable of everything and anything feel the need to satisfy his ego in such a convoluted manner? It didn’t make sense. Then, as I moved away from Christianity to my own personal path, I had found an answer – at least if only a temporary one.

Good and Bad
The answer to my big “Why?” became

“If God was perfect, he needed imperfection, good and bad, black and white, to know himself.”

I was happy with the answer and I managed to get some good sleep after this if only for a little while.

Square One… Again
Then I came into the belief that good and bad didn’t really exist its only energy that exists - theory crushed again! For example – in some cultures its BAD to eat all the food on your plate when you’re invited for dinner, but in other cultures its GOOD when you do the exact same. So what is bad? What’s bad for me might not be bad for you and likewise with what is good. So what is bad and good? It’s only a energy coupled with how we perceive that energy. Therefore Good and Bad is an illusion, albeit, a very good one.

Back to the Drawing Board
So there is no good and bad – so my big “Why?” answer had become voided. After a number of other failed attempts I tried to understand the nature of God. If God is everywhere and in everything then I turned to everything for the answer as to why God decided to create this world in which we live.

Evolution of an Idea
Then a thought came to me that I first laughed at… however it started to make sense the more I thought of it…

To me, there was no perceivable reason why the God force would WANT to create this creation and others we are unaware of. If God was perfect, then there is no need to create a single human being - Let alone the Universe. If something is perfect then it lacks NOTHING. If you are perfectly content, you don’t even need to speak. The only reason you speak is because you are not content with your thoughts. Think about it, its true.

So, putting two and two together gives rise to a previously unheard of theory. God HAD to create this universe. There was an underlying need that had to be filled by the act of creation.

Creation Alarm Bells
Telling most people that God HAD to do something is ludicrous, which is why I laughed it off. God is the ultimate - what does he HAVE to do? And yet, here we are a seemingly perfect being which was not content with his thoughts - the result - CREATION!

And so? Why was God not content that he created life as we know it, I hear you ask?

The answers I believe are in creation. This is a world built for pro-creation and evolution. The World is a breeding playground. The world is a built for breeding. From the reprodution of cellular bodies, plants, animals and humans and the majesty of the cosmos. It’s the one facet of our world that is instinctual in every lifeform this planet (and most likely many others) has.

We humans are built magically for human reproduction. The intricacy of the human genetalia, the inbuilt need to pro-create and make babies and the wonderful design of the womb. But we are not alone. The plants live only to reproduce and the survial instinct of animals are for one thing – continuation of the species. Not only this but the networking between all degrees of life to help in one way or another to aid the reproduction process. For example the tree grows fruit to attract the birds to eat the fruit to survive and therefore reproduce and who then pass the seeds in their faeces which are then resoiled into the earth for reproduction of the original tree. The world is alive for one thing and one thing only – to reproduce.

Drawing a Conclusion
So does this innate character of the world give us some insight into the nature of its creator? If God is everything and if the one purpose of everything living is to create, and God HAD to create this creation - Then GOD MUST BE REPRODUCING! That is the reason for creation and that is the answer to my big “Why?” at the present time. There was a threat to the energy that we call God that called for creation which therefore allows that energy to be maintained.

Think about it… It will keep you up at night I am sure. It certainly also will create more questions…I am happy to discuss this theory in more detail in the discussion forums. Look for them on the left hand menu, at the bottom.

Yours

John Christian
http://www.savinggod.com
john.christian@savinggod.com

SavingGod.com is looking for contributors. If your interested. Let me know

[Pax_Vitae]

Hi John, just to let you know I’ve moved your post from Philosophy to the Religion forum, as it should attract more interest here. Also, many of the questions you’ve raised in your post have been discussed on this forum. I hope you find some topics here that will interest you.

[kesh]

jchristian, with a wide look at religion and its different doctrines would you say you take a pantheistical view of “God”. Or take more to different ideas
and views on the direction of religious ideas; like say what are your views on a “Nestorian” outlook. I do take to the belief that we must see god also as a human. Like say if a horse imagined a God it would be a horse.

[jchristian]

Kesh,

I like your quote in your sig.

The thing I hate to do in call myself something i.e Pantheistical. I have my truths and untruths. I’ve gone through my “label phase”… i wrote about this on my site…

savinggod.com/savinggod/publ … ?pageid=42

i quote from the last part of that document…

… So finally, for all those that want to classify me: I am John Christian, part of the whole. I am not a Christian, Muslim or Shaolin Kung-Fu Master. I am John. You’ve probably met me in the street and not recognised me. I was the guy that caught a bus with you the other day. You don’t have to mock me to understand me. I am willing to explain on more loving terms. I know you want to understand, but you probably won’t - so go on… go play… make a funny comment about me to get your love… I understand. Love is a precious thing. Can you say that? “Love is a precious thing”.

John Christian
savinggod.com
john.christian@savinggod.com

SavingGod.com is looking for contributors. If your interested. Let me know

[kesh]

jchristian

I know you want to understand, but you probably won’t - so go on… go play… make a funny comment about me to get your love… I understand. Love is a precious thing. Can you say that? “Love is a precious thing”.

Sorry, but i must ask - what are you going on about “love”? is this a love is God thing?

God is eternal and infinite, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he is always and everywhere. Every soul that has perception is, though in different times and in different organs of sense and motion, still the same indivisible person. He is omnipresent not virtually only but also substantially; for virtue cannot subsist without substance. In him are all things contained and moved; yet neither affects the other: God suffers nothing from the motion of bodies; bodies find no resistance from the omnipresence of God. He is all eye, all ear, all brain, all arm, all power to percieve, to understand, and to act; but in a manner notat all human, in a mannner not at all corporeal, in a manner totally unknown to us.–how can i argue with that?

Hal la looya praise the Lord! youve saved me jchristian.
“love is a precious thing”

…now when do you take?

[jchristian]

I agree. But shouldnt knowing that make you ask why the need for creation?

[system]

First,

God is eternal and infinite, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he is always and everywhere. Every soul that has perception is, though in different times and in different organs of sense and motion, still the same indivisible person. He is omnipresent not virtually only but also substantially; for virtue cannot subsist without substance. In him are all things contained and moved; yet neither affects the other: God suffers nothing from the motion of bodies; bodies find no resistance from the omnipresence of God. He is all eye, all ear, all brain, all arm, all power to percieve, to understand, and to act; but in a manner notat all human, in a mannner not at all corporeal, in a manner totally unknown to us.

j. What if this is a lie, and simply my ability to use “words” that give you sensations in a transcental way to put but across a statement. This statement can not be proven wrong through logic; like there are pink elfs in my back garden! but nothing i use as senses can sense them and neither can any other animal. This does mean i have pink elfs in my garden? and if its down to belief - well i believe black is red; theres no way you can prove me wrong! Hmm… creation, why not try to find out scientifically? if we stop at a belief that could be right, But could be wrong;
why dont we just try and see if we can find out something objective, some a apparent reality to it all, instead of just excepting a “truth” that might not be. If a answer for the original creation is what your looking for, look in the science section and you’ll find some interesting “causal analysis” on creation. We are created from electricity and chemicals all propagated right, which has been tested - why we dont understand things that arent energy that we are. 5% of the universe is matter, 65% dark energy and 30% dark matter; perhaps you are sensing this dark matter or dark energy as that eternal force.

[kesh]

forgot to login jchristian. but why not take a different look, instead of simply a spiritual one?

[jchristian]

5% of the universe is matter, 65% dark energy and 30% dark matter; perhaps you are sensing this dark matter or dark energy as that eternal force.

Or, maybe its called “dark” because there is unknown properties to these agents. Maybe these unknown agents are spiritual?

My view, I would like to believe, is based more in science than airy fairy spirituality. science today is not what it was ten twenty years ago. scientists now (even the skeptical ones) believe there is something spiritual tieing this world together. for more info - i suggest the holigraphic universe by michael talbot.

John Christian
savinggod.com
john.christian@savinggod.com

SavingGod.com is looking for contributors. If your interested. Let me know

[Frighter]

the problem is alot of people look at science today and throw up their arms and say HA! science cannot explain it all, therefore there must be something beyond science that it cannot explain!

let science progress 10,100,1000 or hell even 1 million years into the future! science is nowhere NEAR explaining everything, and to jump on the faith bandwagon to explain things we dont knowabout is premature i think.

[Marshall_McDaniel]

— Welcome to the forum jchristian.
— “Love is a precious thing.”

— I am an atheist, however, due to the inherent nature of the God question i have to agree with your conception of God. The mere attempt to delineate God corrupts his image, it is this that religions still have not learned. The World’s major religions could learn a lot from the negative theologists, Pseudo-Dionysius, and the Mystics. Trying to posit God on earth produces hypocrisy due to the fact that man is incapable of such a noble task.
— You have rightly sensed that a label can be used as a way to dispense with someone’s thought. We think we have forever captured something in the small, narrow, time-bound, petty thing that is a word. That said, i greatly appreciate your thoughts, they seem like natural religion, they almost seem, forgive the term, “Deist”. I have, at times, become enamoured of natural explanations myself. Where you posit God, i simply posit Nature, but i feel we have a common attitude.

[jchristian]

Hi Frigher,

the problem is alot of people look at science today and throw up their arms and say HA! science cannot explain it all, therefore there must be something beyond science that it cannot explain!

let science progress 10,100,1000 or hell even 1 million years into the future! science is nowhere NEAR explaining everything, and to jump on the faith bandwagon to explain things we dont knowabout is premature i think.

its actually funny you bought this up, i was discussing it on my forum just last night…

extract from savinggod.com discussion forum:

i agree 100%. but then what is physicality? is it not just a set of rules for the behaviour of matter?

when we hear the word spirituality, we tend the think of non-physicality… but really, what we should be thinking about in simply an unknown set of rules. we didnt know why we stuck to the earth as it was spinning a hundred miles and hour, until the apple fell on newtons head. if you had of heard two people philosophising about gravity before it was quantified, i am sure the conversation would have looked something like the one we are having now. but now gravity is an accepted physicality. maybe one day the makeup of the universe on a spiritual level might also be quantified and then deemed physical because we have it in a set of rules that can be handed out in school textbooks.

what i am trying to get at here is that there is no seperation between the physical and spiritual… they are one and the same and more than likely a whole lot more than we can ever concieve… so in essence, i agree, everything is physical, but on another point - not everything physical has been quantifed and dissected, especially on the micro-micro cosom and macro-macro cosom…

the god i talk about is everything, he cant be physical and spiritual, he just is… its our human minds that say, ok this is phsical, i can quantify this with my five senses, this is the way it is… everything else is spiritual or nonsense because i cant draw a box around it and give it definition…

many ancient religions worshipped the sun for example… they couldnt quantify it… it was spiritual to them… now its just a star that provides energy, we have quantified it and therefore removed it from the books of deification.

in 10, 50, 100 years, what other things will change status from unknown “spirituality” to accepted fact?

lets look at dimensions for example… another dimesion is not a spiritual theory, although more often that not classified as one… i use the radio example… a radio tunes in at a certain frequency, change the frequency and you change what you hear. dimension theories are just the same… infrared and ultraviolet rays are just outside of vision frequencies… but they are there… what are beyond these frequencies… gamma and xrays… and beyond that … and beyond that??? AD INFINITUM. we are in the eternal cosmos right now… but our human makeup (the five senses) have greatly hindered our perceptions of the entire universal properties.

a dog for example lives slightly in another dimesion to us humans, dogs can hear sounds at a higher hertz frequency than we can… this is only a minor dimensional offset (only sound) and therefore we still see the dog in this dimension… but what about a being that resonated at a much higher frequency than we humans do and therefore had a whole new set of senses… is this a spiritual being? of course not… just one not viewable/hearable/tangible in this dimension we live in.

i hope i havent babbled

[lharrison]

I do not belive, that the innate character, you personally describe, gives us much insight, into the nature of god.

Our thoughts are not his thoughts , our ways are not his ways, so to atempt to understand his motive for creation would be beyond our capability

He does say in his inspired work , the bible, that he created us for his Glory

or his pleasure.

Reproducing, indicates, a copy, to produce further members of the same species.

God created us in his image, God is spirit, Man resembles god in certain respects, such as possesing an immortal spirit, without being equal with him.

What is more important to me is why we feel it so important to understand
the nature of gods purpose for creation.

If it is for his Glory than what can I do to Glorify God

[system]

Sorry, I was too lazy to read your entire post. But God is not reproducing, you are thinking in 3-d sense. God is experiencing.

It’s about the journey, not the destination.