Saying Yes and doing No.

The one who led me to Nietzsche, Jim Morrison, wrote the following poem:

[size=95]Time works like acid
Stained eyes
You see time fly

The face changes as the heart beats
& breathes

We are not constant
We are an arrow in flight
The sum of the angles of change

Her face changed in the car
eyes & skin & hair remain
the same. But a hundred similar
girls succeed each other[/size]

Suppose that, instead of a hundred, only three similar girls may succeed each other: past, present, and future. Now in order to will the eternal recurrence, one would have to will the eternal recurrence of the past and present girls, but not necessarily even the one-time-only occurrence of the future girl—let alone her eternal recurrence. One may without scruples prevent the occurrence of any relatively near-future similar girls precisely because the eternal recurrence guarantees that an identical girl—indeed that identical series of past and present girls—will exist in the relatively distant future… This is what Nietzsche means when he says:

[size=95]We have to be destroyers!—— I perceived that the state of disintegration, in which individual natures can perfect themselves as never before—is an image and isolated example of existence in general. To the paralyzing sense of general disintegration and incompleteness I opposed the eternal recurrence. [Source: The Will to Power, section 417; translation Kaufmann. Cf. http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?p=2296212#p2296212.][/size]

One may at the same time will the eternal recurrence of a being, for instance the “she” referred to in the poem, and the destruction of that being. And in fact, its destruction is a precondition of its recurrence!

This is obvious but I feel it deserves to be said in this case: A things eventual disintegration or destruction will be required for it is to reemerge in another (hypothetical) cycle, but that does of course not mean that it needs to die by our hands, or in a hurry.

Agreed.

That is a bit disturbing. :confused:

“Let’s worship the TRUE God of the universe, ENTROPY!! And raise his son the Devil to rightful Lordship so that we can all become stronger!!” :evilfun:

Seriously?
But that does seem to be the new way of the Western World.

“Every man for himself” is the end of every man.

James, will you please explain your quote. Who said it and what does it mean? And what does entropy have to do with ‘every man for himself?’ I’m really at sea over this one. :slight_smile:

I don’t understand what part needs explaining.
Nietzsche’s quote, “We need to be destroyers” creates entropy (destruction and disintegration).

But then he adds, “in which individual natures can perfect themselves as never before”, implying that men will become stronger by being destroyers… of each other, thus, “Every man for himself”.

The truth is that when people begin attacking everyone around them, not only do they generally lose, but everyone around them does as well. The only people who win are the ones smart enough to not get into the fight. Those who emerge victorious are those who merely watched the fools destroy each other. And then they come in a take the spoils of whatever is left (“The Devil”). The OT explains it in Deuteronomy (like I said, as a Catholic, you seem to have an odd education :slight_smile: ).

A Nietzschian empire generally cannot be produced and even if it manages, it will destroy itself pretty quickly. It is a “negative particle” in society and thus metaphysically restricted by size and any positive particle that manages to get even close to the same size will totally annihilate it.

James,

I do not agree with what you say. That’s irrelevant, after all. So I am not really focusing on my disagreement, it is just to declare my side - unsurprisingly pro-Nietzschean.
Rather, there are things in you remarks and in the way you represent N.'s thought that are questionable.

I used to see entropy as inevitable slow death. Destruction is more an outbreak of energy… That would seem to me as contrasting entropy.
Anyway, I guess that N. never considered entropy when he wrote that. I guess that your take on this quote brings it quite out of the intended context. That’s not to say that your interpretation is not legitimate, rather that you seem to miss the point.

It’s perfectly OK to find that N.'s thoughts are morally disturbing – that was intended. But morally disturbing does not mean stupid (quite often the opposite). Indeed there are very little chances that N. could have ever endorsed the blind-destruction scenario that you suggest. That would be sheer nihilism - and his idea was that his philosophy was the processing and overcoming of nihilism.
N. anticipated the concept of destructive creation (which was actually formulated by Schumpeter and confined to economics). It’s fairly supportable to maintain that for N. destruction is always, in the short or long term, creative, that destruction is intrinsically creative, that it is the first step of creation. (Sure, pain and suffering are also intrinsically involved – btw, eventually we all suffer and die).
“Every man for himself” is indeed a sentence compatible with N.'s thoughts, but your interpretation lacks of all the finesse N. usually displays. Assuming that “for himself” is always and necessarily translated to “definitive annihilation of the rest” – which eventually amounts to creating a desert – is not really what he promoted. It’s slightly more articulated…

Well, not really. Many believe that N. saw the Roman Empire as the historical event closer to the implementation of his moral and political philosophy. Now, not only it did exist, but it was more than short-lived. (Frankly, in many respects I think that the American Empire has followed the same tactics and politics - knowingly).
Regardless ideology, what you label as «“negative particle” in society» is the actual engine of a healthy (life fostering), expanding and eventually hegemonic society, while what you deem “positive” is rather the social equivalent of entropy.

I believe N was refering to being a destroyer of old ideas, not of actual people.

As do I, Dan~. It’s when N. is interpreted literally, and his philosophies are taken as ‘gospel’, that they can be misunderstood and misused. I’m not a Nietzshean scholar–far from it–but I believe N. to have been a thinker within his time–and a thinker who was trying to throw off the shackles he felt had been placed upon him by the German religiosity and philosophies of his time. He threw out a lot of what was believed, but he did keep some because he agreed with it. If you read German history leading up to N.'s time, I think he’s much easier to understand. But again, I’m no Nietzschean scholar.

I’m not so certain that I do miss the point. Entropy refers to the collection of all causes of disintegration. No doubt he and probably anyone during that era would have merely certain things in mind no matter what they said. But the idea that spreads always surpasses the speaker’s intent. If he were speaking of only destroying Christianity, he certainly didn’t make that clear. And once you start a fire in society, you are not in control of it, no matter what you think. He seemed to be thinking that as long as you keep the fire burning, only that which doesn’t burn can survive and thus “men will be stronger than ever before”. He is expressing some known psychological disorders which are symptomatic of a backlash, over-compensation from extreme stress - going too far due to feeling too oppressed. Obviously he was led to believe that it was the Christians who were oppressing him. His followers seem to have been given that same impression.

Actually the Nazi’s were born out of that fire and Nietzsche seems to have been merely one of the matches. And look where that led. How long did their empire last?

Since the 1970’s in America entropy and destruction has been promoted throughout the media and society in the form of presumed oppression, retaliation, retribution, vengeance, liberation, and the good of being bad. The same Nazi like establishment wreaks the benefits. A social fusion reactor that fuels a trillion dollar economy at the expense of the population. And it constitutes what the Christians were calling “Eternal Hell” (a society built upon suffering, misery, disease, and death… but economically stable and thus eternal).

Morality wasn’t my issue. Sanity was.
And actually stupid and immoral really do mean the same thing. You are just not aware as to why.

By being super destroyers? We are to annihilate nihilism by being annihilators? Is that like destroying Christianity by being good Christians?

Well, I am not seeing the “articulation” in those reporting from him as though he is their prophet. And being “creative” isn’t an excuse for destruction, “I only blew up that building because I was being creative”. One can be very creative without mass destruction.

Those similarities exist, but neither the Roman Empire, nor America were built on the notion, “We all need to be destroyers”. In fact, both were built upon quite the opposite, “We all need to be builders, inventors, and creators”.

By who’s theory? Whoever, I would be glad to straighten him out.

Overall a good answer, some of the points that you raise are challenging and you say a number of things that I agree with.

Now, I have no pretension to change your mind, probably because I know that I have not the “articulation” it takes - and even if I had it, I simply would not…
We clearly differ and will continue to differ. Actually, I guess that I am about to offer you even more “good” reasons to differ.

I still think that your meaning of entropy is a bit peculiar and that you miss the point.
As for the former, you provide a sort of definition and that’s helpful. I can infer (maybe wrongly) that entropy is for you a threat to “order” and that preservation of order is of great value to you.
The latter is more complex to discuss and I am going to try to explain why I think differently – just that.

As others do, I also interpret that destroying refers mainly to ideas, beliefs, mindsets, religions, morality… things that leave no bloodstains. But not exclusively.
N. was not advocating murder, or genocide. Yet, he did not condemn them either. Or, better, he did not condemn those acts as violations of sacred rights.
N. does not values the life of individuals in the way the Judeo-Christian heritage or Enlightment do. Some lives are more expendable than others. Nevertheless, that is not in itself a good reason for killing, or persecuting or other destructive acts – but their lives, or the respect of their “rights”, are no moral restraints.
“Philosophizing with the hammer” maybe requires no direct casualties, yet it’s no surprise if there are some sooner or later.

I guess that this is going to comfort your view of an eternal-hell society «built upon suffering, misery, disease, and death…». All your moral judgements can happily graze on this pasture.
I can guess that parallelisms with Nazism and words like unter- and über-menschen are in order here.
To cut a long story short, as you said, indeed N. was one of the matches used to start the fire. I contend that Nazis made an ideological use of Nietzsche, while their general philosophical interpretation was quite shallow (not to bar that there could have been Nazis deep into N., but I am most sceptical that they could consistently be Nazis because Nietzscheans – they probably deluded themselves in the reverse arrow). I don’t dwell on this specific subject because it would require a long analysis, and this post is already overly long.

You are also right noting that neither the Roman nor the American empires were built by “superior destroyers”. (On the contrary, «destroying Christianity by being good Christians» is excellent – so it happened according to N.).
As long as the scope of destruction is strictly limited to physical annihilation, it’s indeed difficult to detect any superiority (and that explains also why N. is no nihilist). Being creative cannot amount to blowing buildings, or anything else, as its fullest expression. (Btw, being creative, qua being creative, looks for and requires no excuse…). But I still maintain that there may be qualitative differences in destruction, only that you need to extend the scope of the process, destruction can be meaningfully appreciated in a given framework, not in an absolute and narrowed one.
This is where, IMO, you miss N.'s point. You want to miss it. You posit that destruction, social unrest, violence are always and necessarily a mistake (“no matter what one thinks”), and this judgement relies entirely on a moral ground (the golden rule neminem laedere…), because it is always wrong, stupid, even insane to deny the supremacy of morality - even after the death of God.
On this you are right one more time: indeed I am not aware of that.
Worse, I repel any awareness of that. To me this is the denial of the history of mankind - and the denial of its future.
(I wonder what the story could have been like if Jefferson and the others convened in Philadelphia were as adamant as you in this conviction. They were betraying their king, promoting social unrest, even war… it seems pretty destructive, after all – and with little guarantee to withhold control).

One last remark.
You interpret “we must be destroyers” as a suggestion, a program, an order.
It’s open to interpretation, but I don’t think so. I tend to interpret he meant that the time had come when it was necessary to be destroyers, that “necessity itself was at work” (a necessity of fullest and perfected natures).
Actually some followers, like myself, do not really mean to promote a destructive spree, or necessarily rejoice about the idea to bring about chaos and destruction (thou, honestly, that could be – I don’t vouch for anybody else).
We just believe, maybe quite foolishly, that we recognize “necessity at work”.

Good posts, attano. I enjoyed reading that.

This may be a crude way to put it, but I think it was important to Nietzsche to have a well-developed appreciation for all forces in life. Developing appreciation, valuing, is like developing taste and it is important.

I have no problem with “changing my mind”. I just can’t yet image anything that you could rationally say that would do that. My foundation is rationality/logic, so if you can maintain that as the basis of your argumentation, I wouldn’t have any choice but to change my mind. Egocentricism and blind faith are not my “thing” (despite appearances).

That is an issue of semantics and not really worth arguing over.

First, I am not “anti-Nietzsche”, but from all I hear from his zealots, he presented only a cause to destroy and no restriction as to how much or at what point to stop. The result of such a preaching is that it doesn’t stop, hence “entropy” by whatever definition you want to give it. And the result is the Jewish “Abyss” for all who participated, “lemmings all jumping into the Abyss”. Is a blind destroyer/hater better than a blind creator/lover?

Perhaps you missed my point. Nietzsche didn’t appear to be “the match that started” anything. He appears to be merely one match that was feeling the heat of a smoldering forest (the strife in European politics and society). It is that strife in totem that “raised order from chaos” in the form of Nazism. When anyone stresses Life too much, Life fights back. Too much inappropriate order will cause an urge toward chaos. Too much inappropriate chaos will cause an urge into order. It doesn’t care who caused what.

On the contrary, Nietzsche is the one who needed to give such distinction. It is apparent by those who worship him today that he said nothing of how to actually create anything good, but merely how to destroy anything current with the presumption that creativity will be the result. That notion is directly out of Hinduism’s Shiva, “The Destroyer and thus Creator”. It is a naive concept, but not totally incorrect. But it is most certainly a worship of Shiva and/or the Christian “Devil” or the Jewish “Yetzer-ha-ra Satan”.

The problem that I am seeing is that each of those were destroyers intended to be balanced-out by something. But I am not hearing any “balance” from the Nietzsche fan club. You say, “he meant only ideas”, “he meant only that evil Christianity”, or maybe he meant only whatever we want to believe at the time. The problem is, “what did Nietzsche, himself, point out as the limit for being destroyers”? How much of a devil did he actually have in mind? Did he actually say?

Without such a limit being proposed, you end up with today’s obvious worship of lust, wanting, sex, greed, gluttony, and so on, all merely serving a higher master simply taxing the population and thus becoming extremely wealthy and in “power over all they survey” (sound familiar?).

Oh really? Can you please quote where I said that? Further presumption?

Entirely your imagination. First you have taken the quote out of context (which brings your own motives into question). When I said “no matter what one thinks”, I was specifically referring to “having control”. So why did you pervert that into “violence is always bad”, which is not remotely related?

I’m afraid it doesn’t work like that. Please keep things civil, James.

…“when in the gutters of Rome…”

:slight_smile:

…and daydreaming/fantasizing our lives away. :sunglasses:

thanks

Quite agree, taste matters.

That may be, but Nietzsche didn’t mean “we” in the sense of “every man”; rather to the contrary. As Fixed Cross wrote in his “Subhuman/Superhuman” thread,

The large majority will never be destroyers in that sense:

[size=95]The philosophers agreed with one another in knowing themselves to be the greatest criminals; they move the boundary stones; as new lawgivers, they are unavoidably called evil by those with the laws on their side, the large majority, or, as Nietzsche said, “the farmers of the spirit” who work the old fields in the old ways (GS 4). [Source: Lampert, Leo Strauss and Nietzsche, page 74.][/size]

Those who belong to the large majority may at most be destroyers in the sense of transgressive sacrality: see http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/viewtopic.php?p=2318026#p2318026.

Paradoxically, the Rational is closer to the Artisan than to the Guardian. The Rational, too, in a sense “rejuvenates [the order] by shaking its foundations”—though in a much more radical sense than the Artisan:

[size=95]those natural cataclysms which ensure that humanity will not fall final prey to human inventions, those beneficent cataclysms, cataclysms of grace, whose goodness toward humanity consists in their annihilation of civilized human life and the enforced return of humanity to its natural primitive conditions from which the earth can again be repopulated and recivilized. [Source: Lampert, ibid., page 145.][/size]

One can also interpret this to mean that we are to be our own destroyers - of our false selves, of our old and useless beliefs - whatever does not work for us anymore.
The image which comes to me is of the phoenix, which becomes destructive to himself, totally annihilating himself within the “flames”, becoming a total state of disintegration so that he can rise again, perfecting an d re-creating himself.
And that IS quite an [isolated] image and example of existence, given our propensity to drag our old selves along out of fear of loss and death and destruction.