Science vs Religion

richarddawkins.net/article,331,A … NYTimescom

Reposted from:
nytimes.com

Maybe the pivotal moment came when Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in physics, warned that “the world needs to wake up from its long nightmare of religious belief,” or when a Nobelist in chemistry, Sir Harold Kroto, called for the John Templeton Foundation to give its next $1.5 million prize for “progress in spiritual discoveries” to an atheist — Richard Dawkins, the Oxford evolutionary biologist whose book “The God Delusion” is a national best-seller.

Or perhaps the turning point occurred at a more solemn moment, when Neil deGrasse Tyson, director of the Hayden Planetarium in New York City and an adviser to the Bush administration on space exploration, hushed the audience with heartbreaking photographs of newborns misshapen by birth defects — testimony, he suggested, that blind nature, not an intelligent overseer, is in control.

Somewhere along the way, a forum this month at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in La Jolla, Calif., which might have been one more polite dialogue between science and religion, began to resemble the founding convention for a political party built on a single plank: in a world dangerously charged with ideology, science needs to take on an evangelical role, vying with religion as teller of the greatest story ever told.

Carolyn Porco, a senior research scientist at the Space Science Institute in Boulder, Colo., called, half in jest, for the establishment of an alternative church, with Dr. Tyson, whose powerful celebration of scientific discovery had the force and cadence of a good sermon, as its first minister.

She was not entirely kidding. “We should let the success of the religious formula guide us,” Dr. Porco said. “Let’s teach our children from a very young age about the story of the universe and its incredible richness and beauty. It is already so much more glorious and awesome — and even comforting — than anything offered by any scripture or God concept I know.”

She displayed a picture taken by the Cassini spacecraft of Saturn and its glowing rings eclipsing the Sun, revealing in the shadow a barely noticeable speck called Earth.

There has been no shortage of conferences in recent years, commonly organized by the Templeton Foundation, seeking to smooth over the differences between science and religion and ending in a metaphysical draw. Sponsored instead by the Science Network, an educational organization based in California, and underwritten by a San Diego investor, Robert Zeps (who acknowledged his role as a kind of “anti-Templeton”), the La Jolla meeting, “Beyond Belief: Science, Religion, Reason and Survival,” rapidly escalated into an invigorating intellectual free-for-all. (Unedited video of the proceedings will be posted on the Web at tsntv.org.)

A presentation by Joan Roughgarden, a Stanford University biologist, on using biblical metaphor to ease her fellow Christians into accepting evolution (a mutation is “a mustard seed of DNA”) was dismissed by Dr. Dawkins as “bad poetry,” while his own take-no-prisoners approach (religious education is “brainwashing” and “child abuse”) was condemned by the anthropologist Melvin J. Konner, who said he had “not a flicker” of religious faith, as simplistic and uninformed.

After enduring two days of talks in which the Templeton Foundation came under the gun as smudging the line between science and faith, Charles L. Harper Jr., its senior vice president, lashed back, denouncing what he called “pop conflict books” like Dr. Dawkins’s “God Delusion,” as “commercialized ideological scientism” — promoting for profit the philosophy that science has a monopoly on truth.

That brought an angry rejoinder from Richard P. Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia University Medical Center, who said his own book, “Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine,” was written to counter “garbage research” financed by Templeton on, for example, the healing effects of prayer.

With atheists and agnostics outnumbering the faithful (a few believing scientists, like Francis S. Collins, author of “The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief,” were invited but could not attend), one speaker after another called on their colleagues to be less timid in challenging teachings about nature based only on scripture and belief. “The core of science is not a mathematical model; it is intellectual honesty,” said Sam Harris, a doctoral student in neuroscience and the author of “The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason” and “Letter to a Christian Nation.”

“Every religion is making claims about the way the world is,” he said. “These are claims about the divine origin of certain books, about the virgin birth of certain people, about the survival of the human personality after death. These claims purport to be about reality.”

By shying away from questioning people’s deeply felt beliefs, even the skeptics, Mr. Harris said, are providing safe harbor for ideas that are at best mistaken and at worst dangerous. “I don’t know how many more engineers and architects need to fly planes into our buildings before we realize that this is not merely a matter of lack of education or economic despair,” he said.

Dr. Weinberg, who famously wrote toward the end of his 1977 book on cosmology, “The First Three Minutes,” that “the more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless,” went a step further: “Anything that we scientists can do to weaken the hold of religion should be done and may in the end be our greatest contribution to civilization.”

With a rough consensus that the grand stories of evolution by natural selection and the blossoming of the universe from the Big Bang are losing out in the intellectual marketplace, most of the discussion came down to strategy. How can science fight back without appearing to be just one more ideology?

“There are six billion people in the world,” said Francisco J. Ayala, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California, Irvine, and a former Roman Catholic priest. “If we think that we are going to persuade them to live a rational life based on scientific knowledge, we are not only dreaming — it is like believing in the fairy godmother.”

“People need to find meaning and purpose in life,” he said. “I don’t think we want to take that away from them.”

Lawrence M. Krauss, a physicist at Case Western Reserve University known for his staunch opposition to teaching creationism, found himself in the unfamiliar role of playing the moderate. “I think we need to respect people’s philosophical notions unless those notions are wrong,” he said.

“The Earth isn’t 6,000 years old,” he said. “The Kennewick man was not a Umatilla Indian.” But whether there really is some kind of supernatural being — Dr. Krauss said he was a nonbeliever — is a question unanswerable by theology, philosophy or even science. “Science does not make it impossible to believe in God,” Dr. Krauss insisted. “We should recognize that fact and live with it and stop being so pompous about it.”

That was just the kind of accommodating attitude that drove Dr. Dawkins up the wall. “I am utterly fed up with the respect that we — all of us, including the secular among us — are brainwashed into bestowing on religion,” he said. “Children are systematically taught that there is a higher kind of knowledge which comes from faith, which comes from revelation, which comes from scripture, which comes from tradition, and that it is the equal if not the superior of knowledge that comes from real evidence.”

By the third day, the arguments had become so heated that Dr. Konner was reminded of “a den of vipers.”

“With a few notable exceptions,” he said, “the viewpoints have run the gamut from A to B. Should we bash religion with a crowbar or only with a baseball bat?”

His response to Mr. Harris and Dr. Dawkins was scathing. “I think that you and Richard are remarkably apt mirror images of the extremists on the other side,” he said, “and that you generate more fear and hatred of science.”

Dr. Tyson put it more gently. "Persuasion isn’t always ‘Here are the facts — you’re an idiot or you are not,’ " he said. “I worry that your methods” — he turned toward Dr. Dawkins — “how articulately barbed you can be, end up simply being ineffective, when you have much more power of influence.”

Chastened for a millisecond, Dr. Dawkins replied, “I gratefully accept the rebuke.”

In the end it was Dr. Tyson’s celebration of discovery that stole the show. Scientists may scoff at people who fall back on explanations involving an intelligent designer, he said, but history shows that “the most brilliant people who ever walked this earth were doing the same thing.” When Isaac Newton’s “Principia Mathematica” failed to account for the stability of the solar system — why the planets tugging at one another’s orbits have not collapsed into the Sun — Newton proposed that propping up the mathematical mobile was “an intelligent and powerful being.”

It was left to Pierre Simon Laplace, a century later, to take the next step. Hautily telling Napoleon that he had no need for the God hypothesis, Laplace extended Newton’s mathematics and opened the way to a purely physical theory.

“What concerns me now is that even if you’re as brilliant as Newton, you reach a point where you start basking in the majesty of God and then your discovery stops — it just stops,” Dr. Tyson said. "You’re no good anymore for advancing that frontier, waiting for somebody else to come behind you who doesn’t have God on the brain and who says: ‘That’s a really cool problem. I want to solve it.’ "

“Science is a philosophy of discovery; intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance,” he said. “Something fundamental is going on in people’s minds when they confront things they don’t understand.”

He told of a time, more than a millennium ago, when Baghdad reigned as the intellectual center of the world, a history fossilized in the night sky. The names of the constellations are Greek and Roman, Dr. Tyson said, but two-thirds of the stars have Arabic names. The words “algebra” and “algorithm” are Arabic.

But sometime around 1100, a dark age descended. Mathematics became seen as the work of the devil, as Dr. Tyson put it. “Revelation replaced investigation,” he said, and the intellectual foundation collapsed.

He did not have to say so, but the implication was that maybe a century, maybe a millennium from now, the names of new planets, stars and galaxies might be Chinese. Or there may be no one to name them at all.

Before he left to fly back home to Austin, Dr. Weinberg seemed to soften for a moment, describing religion a bit fondly as a crazy old aunt.

“She tells lies, and she stirs up all sorts of mischief and she’s getting on, and she may not have that much life left in her, but she was beautiful once,” he lamented. “When she’s gone, we may miss her.”

Dr. Dawkins wasn’t buying it. “I won’t miss her at all,” he said. “Not a scrap. Not a smidgen.”

He sure is a dick.

If by dick you mean genius, then yes. But if by dick you mean amazing author and scientist, then yes. :stuck_out_tongue:

Funny thing is, the Evangelist Dawkins confronted in one of his documentaries (I forget the titles and names right now) was recently caught paying for male prostitutes and for drug possession.

The hypocrisy of the religious mind is fascinating.

Dawkins has been extremely adept at explaining the how, but steps off into the soft stuff over his head in trying to tell the world why. For all his denunciation of religion, he simply dresses the doll in different clothing. But hey, it sells books.

Michael Shermer’s response to this statement would be that “how” and “why” are the same questions, just a matter of semantics. We ask “why,” then we figure out “how.” Science addresses both questions often in the same ways.

Science cannot properly oppose religion and vice-versa, as each deals only with a portion of the questions that can be asked and neither can properly invade the other’s territory. Science deals with questions of fact about the observable, objective world and the operational workings of nature. Religion deals with questions of value and purpose about the world as we experience it and live in it. These are questions the scientific method is incompetent to address.

“Why?” is a nonsensical question. There is answer for “Why?” At least there is no answer that is going to make people all warm and fuzzy inside.

I disagree. Replacing the word “religion” with “philosophy” in your post would have the same effect, and be much more accurate.

Religion tells you what your purpose and values are, it doesn’t question them. In fact, most of the time it strictly prohibits such. But I would agree that science isn’t sufficient for dealing with every topic on the planet.

That’s because real science doesn’t claim to be more than it is, the pursuit of knowledge.

Science versus religion? What?..

I find it extremely funny that some have called Dawkins a genius when in fact his ideas bring nothing new to the table. Dawkins has simply managed to popularize the idea. And aside from his ideas i find him to have an insensitive character, and a very pompus attitude. That is neither good for the progress of science, nor the abolishment of religion. I wouldn’t be surprised if the next thing i hear in this forum is that Dan Brown is a genius (not that im comparing the 2)

Science is exactly what James said, it is simply the pursuit of knowledge, or more specifically, the truth. It has the ability to come across as many wrongs and flaws in that pursuit as religion does. Religion DOES NOT prohibit the pursuit of knowledge, that is an absurd comment to make. Religion does put rules and regulations in ones pursuit but so does science. So does any belief which someone might have, and every person has beliefs. Whether it be in religion, science, oneself, a tree etc; they all shape and form the way in which one goes about their pursuit of knowledge and truth. Again, neither religion or science can claim to be absolute truth about everything, but it is people who can claim THEIR absolute truth. That is a right of every human being, and it should never be taken away. I personally believe it is a great shame that people, whatever they believe in, can put a man like Dawkins on a pedastol when he shows such disrespect and disregard for ones personal beliefs. I say to Dr. Dawkins, stick to being a scientist and stop being a social commentator, because you character has proven you useless in that regard.

Yes, he is. His childish resentment speaks volumes about why he believes what he does. His inability to apply his own scientific criteria to his own beliefs and claims speaks volumes about the quality of his intellect and just how far out of his depth his literary agent has let him become.

The continued observation of anomalous phenomena refutes the existence of natural laws. It’s highly amusing that Dawkins would accuse someone else of ‘bad poetry’.

Come the revolution, he’ll be forced to lecture on the Piltdown Man and no other topic. That’ll learn 'im…

When will the arguments without evidence end? Where is your argument for such a statement? Let me share my counter-argument.

Evolution not being taught in schools, or not even being a widespread and widely accepted idea. Stem cell research. THE CHURCH REJECTED THE IDEA THE EARTH ROTATES AROUND THE SUN. They didn’t even issue a public apology until a couple of months ago for the entire debacle. Where the fuck did you grow up?

He’s frustrated that the unintelligent people of our nations have such a loud voice to be heard. He’s frustrated that logic and reason do not dictate our society or culture. He’s frustrated that although you think you have a perfect counter-argument, you can’t even address the issues, you simply skate around them, all the while satisfying yourself that somehow you’ve countered the arguments he brings to the table, in reality doing no such thing.

So he’s not the most patient man. I wouldn’t be either if I realized the only reason people can’t see the truth is because we’re raised in a way that wouldn’t allow us to realize the logic of an argument if it smacked us across the face, because the children of American aren’t talk to ask the why, they’re taught to choose a belief and accept it, and then become insanely defensive if somebody questions their cockeyed beliefs.

SOME religions do what you said. Others do not. It’s not a generic and inevitable drawback of religion, it’s a flaw in a number of religions that originated in ancient times. However, while this is a flaw that needs correcting, it’s also one that science is not in a position to correct, so once again we don’t properly have a conflict between the two.

It’s not absurd. Just take a stroll through history, there are plenty of examples where religion has attempted to stymie discoveries about the nature of reality. Religion is designed to make us stop asking questions about certain universal mysteries because it purports to have the answers already.

In such different ways though. There are no grey zones between science and religion. They’re poles apart. When it comes to the pursuit of truth religion relies on preconceived notions and requires no evidence, the only rule being unconditional belief. The rules of science are much more demanding than that. I doubt Dawkins is too concerned about obliterating the “right of every human being” to believe whatever they personally want to believe. The problem is that religion claims to be in possession of certain truths, based on nothing much more than say-so and further, that it has a tendency to shout those so-called truths from the rooftops and demand they be given due regard. But why should they? What Dawkins[and others] are really on about is religion not deserving it’s exalted place as a purveyor of truth.

I really feel I need to keep calling people on this sort of generalization. There are religions in which the above statement is true. Unfortunately, those include the religions in which many people in the West are raised, and against which all people who call themselves atheists are in rebellion (which is why they call themselves atheists). But this IS NOT a part of the definition of religion, nor is it an inevitable feature. It is not a feature of Buddhism, Hinduism, Neopaganism, about half the New Age, the Quakers, the Unitarians, the Sufis, or really the majority of religious traditions on the face of the planet.

It is, of course, a feature of conservative Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant. And the context of those religions is the only one in which the phrase “science versus religion” even makes any sense. So this thread really ought to be titled “science versus conservative Christianity.” That, at least, is a real conflict, not an unfair generalization.

I’ve been meaning to read “The Selfish Genius” but I haven’t got around to it yet. :slight_smile:

No wonder you like dawkins, your about as raged as he is over other peoples beliefs. Let’s not turn this into a “who the fuck are you” “your a fucking idiot” “go back to your fuckin bubble” etc type of argument, it makes everyone look bad alright.

Now, here is what i have a problem with when science tries to label religion as a negative outright, such as it doesn’t allow for the pursiuit of knowledge, which you have done here. And then you give me an answer about SOMEONE(s) who were religious and stopped the prusuit of knowledge. THAT IS NOT THE ARGUMENT AT HAND. Peoples actions in the name of science or religion is not the problem here. It’s like that guy who said earlier in the thread that becaudse ted haggard had turned out to be a homosexual, one who bought a prostitute, as well as buy crystal meth, he will never be ceased to be amazed at the hypocrisy of the human mind. You 100% science, or excuse me, Richard DAwkins, people; take single situations and blow up into generalizations. Talk about stepping around the issue at hand. Do we really want to get in an evil debate? If we did, religion would probably win, but its also been around much longer, and thats not even the point. Science created the idea of social darwinism and uegenics, those things can be attributed to the deaths of 6 million jews. The idea of survival of fittest has created desperate poor people who aren’t given a chance to be considered real human beings because of the corruption of capitalism.

THe point is, those things don’t matter in this discussion, its a seperate topic. We are talking about religion itself and science itself. And in that practice it is a common belief among intelligent people to approach it with sensitivity and respect, while still standing strong for you position. Where the fuck have you been?