# Self-Interest, Selfishness, Altruism
**URL:** https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041
**Category:** Philosophy
**Created:** [October 20, 2010, 1:22am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041 "2010-10-20T01:22:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@PavlovianModel146](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/PavlovianModel146)
#### Post date: [October 24, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/121 "2010-10-24T23:32:21Z")
I’m glad someone picked up on that!
Of course, it legitimately refutes the point made at the same time.
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### Author:  [@treeman](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/treeman)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/122 "2010-10-25T00:36:59Z")
“I am the vine and you are the branches.” Common to most Christians is the view of the church as the “mystical body of Christ.” Just as the parts of the body are joined in common well being so too are the lives of Christians interrelated. All Christians accept that they are "members of one another. “One can be damned alone, but saved by others.” Its the down playing of “holy-selfishness” that puts its own salvation before everything else. Christians are the cells in the “Mind of Christ”, which functions through them collectively. At least thats what they believe.
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### Author:  [@kuze420](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/kuze420)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/123 "2010-10-25T01:01:31Z")
> [@PavlovianModel146](#):
>
> I’m glad someone picked up on that!
>
> Of course, it legitimately refutes the point made at the same time.
have any of you read of mice and men, george shows legitamate sacrifice lyoalty… id say there isnt much self interest for him that he wasnt willing to sacrifice
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### Author:  [@PavlovianModel146](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/PavlovianModel146)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/124 "2010-10-25T01:58:08Z")
> [@kuze420](#):
>
> > [@PavlovianModel146](#):
> >
> > I’m glad someone picked up on that!
> >
> > Of course, it legitimately refutes the point made at the same time.
>
> have any of you read of mice and men, george shows legitamate sacrifice lyoalty… id say there isnt much self interest for him that he wasnt willing to sacrifice
I have read it, but I didn’t care for it. Could you please briefly refresh my memory?
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### Author:  [@finishedman](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/finishedman)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/125 "2010-10-25T02:50:25Z")
As opposed to animals, man kills for the sake of an idea, either religiously for the sake of the Church, or politically for the sake of the sovereignty of the country. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could see the whole human race as one, where each person is concerned for the well being of the other? No strings attached. No boundaries. Seems so simple and I’m sure it takes place on small levels.
Perhaps its elusiveness on a global scale can be reduced to the nature of thought and how we as individuals relate to our neighbors in whatever capacity we find our selves relating. General cooperation seems a valid approach, but in special cases one may behave in such a way where he tries to change the world around him in order to satisfy his interests or to bring his surrounding into a more meaningful state of affairs as he sees it regardless of other’s ideas. … or even involve himself with ulterior motives and pretenses in order to satisfy his predilections despite the concern of others.
Then again, compassion and empathy come naturally. It is easy to see what another person needs, or how to act in a given situation, if there is no concern about a grand self to get in the way. Perhaps the greater part of true morality is simply stopping all the harm that we normally do, rather than taking on any great and noble deeds; that is, the harm that comes from having a false sense of self.
We can live as human beings, body, brain, along with the strong influence of ideas and beliefs contained in the ’sphere of knowledge’, which is that of society, living out our lives as a complex interplay of our replicated thought structure and environment, in the knowledge that that is all there is. Then we are no longer victims of the selfish way in which the self itself becomes falsified. In this sense we can be truly free—not because we can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators that are continually passed down, but because we know that there is no one to rebel.
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### Author:  [@Xunzian](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/Xunzian)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/126 "2010-10-25T16:34:20Z")
> [@Humpty](#):
>
> i’m not convinced the action you described fits the definition of altruism.
How? It perfectly lines up with the definition provided in the OP; furthermore, it is described as “altruistic” in the literature, so it being considered altruistic can hardly be confined to my own idiopathic understanding. How doesn’t it fit the definition of altruistic?
> [@](#):
>
> it cannot have any measure of self-serving purpose.
Why not?
> [@](#):
>
> if you insist that they even HAVE a self, then I must insist that their biological drives are being met by becoming part of the stem, and it is thus self-serving as well.
How is that self-serving? It is a self-sacrificing act, as per the definition provided in the OP. Biological drives can result in altruistic behavior, that is the point!
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### Author:  [@statiktech](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/statiktech)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/127 "2010-10-25T17:11:09Z")
> [@](#):
>
> By those definitions anything perceptible can be argued to promote self-interest. Even in this case, I’d still contend that self-interest is only a viable explanation for actions occurring after the establishment of a ‘self’. Meaning biological processes are only self-serving if we reduce the ‘self’ to material entities, but this is where I think self sustaining to be more accurate – biology doesn’t work toward an advantage, but necessity.
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > Biological processes do not fall in any way into this equation because when you consider acts that are potentially, “Altruistic,” or, “Selfish,” an individual’s private biological function in no way involves another person, so there is no alternative decision to make but to complete the biological action.
Not necessarily. I have a biological drive to eat, which manifests into hunger – but I can choose not to eat even to the point of starvation. Some seem almost entirely mechanistic, occurring without conscious interaction; whereas some do necessitate some awareness (pain, hunger, fatigue, etc.). In the case of the former, establishment of a ‘self’ (an identity) doesn’t seem necessary; existence is the only requisite. As for the latter, our awareness which interacts with the biological drive is our means by which we analyze variables and alternatives. In either case, I would think it entirely possible that one could be driven toward self-sacrificing behavior. Point being that one can maintain a degree of self-interest while engaging in a self-sacrificing behavior, meaning the ‘self’ (even if we are reducing it to its material base) is not the primary interest.
By your definitions, any action can be perceived as self-interested. My contention is that one can be self-interested by nature, while being altruistic in action. The fact that I have a naturally invested interest in my own well-fare does not negate my ability to be selfless in action.
I think we are “crossing streams” [see Ghostbusters] a little with your working definitions because we are talking about 2 different things (in my opinion): A state of being, and the nature of an action. Being selfish doesn’t render me incapable of altruistic action any more than being afraid renders me incapable of courageous action.
> [@Xunzian](#):
>
> It is a self-sacrificing act, as per the definition provided in the OP. Biological drives can result in altruistic behavior, that is the point!
Now it should get interesting…
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### Author:  [@kuze420](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/kuze420)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/128 "2010-10-25T18:09:28Z")
> [@PavlovianModel146](#):
>
> > [@kuze420](#):
> >
> > > [@PavlovianModel146](#):
> > >
> > > I’m glad someone picked up on that!
> > >
> > > Of course, it legitimately refutes the point made at the same time.
> >
> > have any of you read of mice and men, george shows legitamate sacrifice lyoalty… id say there isnt much self interest for him that he wasnt willing to sacrifice
>
> I have read it, but I didn’t care for it. Could you please briefly refresh my memory?
george is a relatively sharp guy. he lived in the great depression and traveled with his friend lenny who was slow, but strong as an ox. george could leave lenny and hold a steady job and live a good life but he choses to stay with lenny and save his neck from all his bad deeds cuz lenny meant no harm. eventually lenny kills the ranchers sons wife and they run for it… george knowing they would kill lenny tried to save him but knew he couldnt tht this time he was going to be lynched and in the end shot lenny in the back of the head not because it helped george in anyway but because it helped lenny.
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### Author:  [@hermit\_philosopher](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/hermit_philosopher)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/129 "2010-10-25T18:29:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> PavlovianModel146[/b]] My main focus here is going to be my assertion that no possible act that a person can commit, even theoretically, can be construed as wholly Altruistic. Therefore, every act a person can possibly make is a Self-Interested Act in one way or another, because obviously, a Selfish Act would also constitute a Self-Interested Act.
Dear PavlovianModel146,
Allow me to present an alternative distinction between altruistic and non-altruistic behaviour, which may support the idea of altruism not being so “sensible”, but definitely rejects the claim that it not exist at all.
The different degrees of “altruism” in your OP, I agree, are not altruistic. This could be because they stem from a perspective of constant self-awareness and active, rational thought [regarding x situation], which means that at all times a causal, sequential understanding of reality [or, at the very least, of surrounding events] is assumed. Altruistic behaviour however, more often occurs in situations where concepts of time and self are not so much in focus and, perhaps this suggests that true altruism requires unconsciously looking at things in an altogether different way?
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### Author:  [@finishedman](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/finishedman)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/130 "2010-10-25T19:18:35Z")
> [@hermit philosopher](#):
>
> Altruistic behaviour however, more often occurs in situations where concepts of time and self are not so much in focus and, perhaps this suggests that true altruism requires unconsciously looking at things in an altogether different way?
When you say unconsciously looking, do you mean without deliberately trying to gain something?
You know, imo, consciousness is just being aware. The ability to create in yourself what is there outside yourself without any emotional attachment and without any purpose to gain something from what is perceived consciously that is sensorial. Any demand placed upon consciousness is probably a combo of genetic predisposition and what society prescribes as desirable.
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### Author:  [@Humpty](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/Humpty)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/131 "2010-10-25T20:42:41Z")
> [@Xunzian](#):
>
> > [@](#):
> >
> > it cannot have any measure of self-serving purpose.
>
> Why not?
Because that’s how it was defined in the OP.
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### Author:  [@statiktech](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/statiktech)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/132 "2010-10-25T21:05:10Z")
> [@Humpty](#):
>
> > [@Xunzian](#):
> >
> > > [@](#):
> > >
> > > it cannot have any measure of self-serving purpose.
> >
> > Why not?
>
> Because that’s how it was defined in the OP.
Are we considering Inherent self-interest as synonymous with self-serving purpose?
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### Author:  [@Humpty](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/Humpty)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/133 "2010-10-25T21:07:14Z")
> [@PavlovianModel146](#):
>
> Altruistic Act:
>
> A theoretical action that is made only [size=150]only[/size] [size=200]only [/size]for someone outside of the self…
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### Author:  [@Xunzian](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/Xunzian)
#### Post date: [October 25, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/134 "2010-10-25T21:28:12Z")
How are we defining the self? That is rather critical to the discussion. Pav? For the sake of the thread, would you please provide a definition of what you mean by “self”? I saw no such definition provided in the OP. In my mind, other slime mold amoebae ought count as outside the “self”, I mean, why not?
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### Author:  [@finishedman](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/finishedman)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/135 "2010-10-26T00:16:32Z")
… doesn’t ‘someone’ refer to a human organism? And, boy, humans are a tricky business.
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### Author:  [@PavlovianModel146](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/PavlovianModel146)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/136 "2010-10-26T01:21:06Z")
> [@kuze420](#):
>
> george is a relatively sharp guy. he lived in the great depression and traveled with his friend lenny who was slow, but strong as an ox. george could leave lenny and hold a steady job and live a good life but he choses to stay with lenny and save his neck from all his bad deeds cuz lenny meant no harm. eventually lenny kills the ranchers sons wife and they run for it… george knowing they would kill lenny tried to save him but knew he couldnt tht this time he was going to be lynched and in the end shot lenny in the back of the head not because it helped george in anyway but because it helped lenny.
Did he have any reason not to shoot him in the back of the head if he was to be lynched anyway? Is that not better than seeing him lynched?
---
### Author:  [@PavlovianModel146](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/PavlovianModel146)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/137 "2010-10-26T01:27:37Z")
> [@hermit philosopher](#):
>
> Dear PavlovianModel146,
> Allow me to present an alternative distinction between altruistic and non-altruistic behaviour, which may support the idea of altruism not being so “sensible”, but definitely rejects the claim that it not exist at all.
>
> The different degrees of “altruism” in your OP, I agree, are not altruistic. This could be because they stem from a perspective of constant self-awareness and active, rational thought [regarding x situation], which means that at all times a causal, sequential understanding of reality [or, at the very least, of surrounding events] is assumed. Altruistic behaviour however, more often occurs in situations where concepts of time and self are not so much in focus and, perhaps this suggests that true altruism requires unconsciously looking at things in an altogether different way?
I don’t know how an individual would commit an action without a focus on the self since it is the self committing the action. Do you have an example?
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### Author:  [@PavlovianModel146](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/PavlovianModel146)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/138 "2010-10-26T01:29:35Z")
The Ik tribe is a good example of many individuals under extreme pressure living in a nearly purely selfish way.
[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ik\_people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ik_people)
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### Author:  [@kuze420](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/kuze420)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/139 "2010-10-26T03:48:09Z")
> [@PavlovianModel146](#):
>
> > [@kuze420](#):
> >
> > george is a relatively sharp guy. he lived in the great depression and traveled with his friend lenny who was slow, but strong as an ox. george could leave lenny and hold a steady job and live a good life but he choses to stay with lenny and save his neck from all his bad deeds cuz lenny meant no harm. eventually lenny kills the ranchers sons wife and they run for it… george knowing they would kill lenny tried to save him but knew he couldnt tht this time he was going to be lynched and in the end shot lenny in the back of the head not because it helped george in anyway but because it helped lenny.
>
> Did he have any reason not to shoot him in the back of the head if he was to be lynched anyway? Is that not better than seeing him lynched?
its better for lenny to be shot, but it was harder on george, he was so loyal even in the end killing him. maybe if you have time reread it, it may change your views of selfishness.
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### Author:  [@PavlovianModel146](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/u/PavlovianModel146)
#### Post date: [October 26, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://www.ilovephilosophy.com/t/self-interest-selfishness-altruism/29041/140 "2010-10-26T03:50:40Z")
> [@kuze420](#):
>
> its better for lenny to be shot, but it was harder on george, he was so loyal even in the end killing him. maybe if you have time reread it, it may change your views of selfishness.
Alleviation of guilt, then. He’d have felt guilty had he allowed Lenny to be lynched when he could have just shot him and made it quick. Didn’t he even have Lenny close his eyes and picture something, (if I remember right) so Lenny didn’t even know the bullet was coming?
Wait, did he know it was coming but just acted like he didn’t, was that implied?
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