Self-organized Criticality; the Efficacy of Ideas and Ethics

Dunamis, would you mind sharing your age? Just curious.

Anyway, it is not ‘a retreat’:

You said:

To which I replied:

Which means:

‘Placards’ refers to the boards Brechtian directors use to give a ‘gestiche’ to a particular scene that in itself allows for no discussion as to the nature of the scene. It does not refer to you or your threads in general. It really is quite an effort when you insist on being so sensitive to all remarks. I am not your philosophy teacher that you hated from college, or whoever it is you are beating up in your mind while typing to me.

I certainly know what you mean about ideas and wanting to share them. I want to share them and get underneath their surface. You in turn did not want to discuss this, merely share it. What use is that, I replied, comparing you to Brecht, who similarly denied discussion of his ideas.

I’m not trying to police your thread. Even though I have the capability to police your posts you can be sure I have never done it and that I don’t plan on doing it. There is a fine group of moderators doing that job for the forum already. The only reason I read it is because it interested me. The only reason I replied is because it interested me enough to want to prompt you for more. Mock questions? I assure you I have no time for forming mock questions, as you have noted I do not reply much to many threads (I was a member long before you and have less than half your total post count) and this is because I am busy. If I enjoyed posting ‘mock questions’ wouldn’t I be doing it more regularly such as some other posters do? Just consider it, anyway.

Honestly, what a waste of both our energies. If you’d like to continue this then perhaps we can do so in private messages, if only to spare the other members from being embarassed on our behalf.

Ob.,

You said: It’s not acceptable in my opinion for you to post with the intent not to discuss.
I said: And some just to share a prospective idea, with little thought that discussion is possible.

Note. You do not get it. It was not that I had no intent to discuss, but had little thought that discussion was possible, if you mean by discussion, “debate”. There is not enough form to the thought, no real position, so to actually debate it. Of course it is meant to be discussed, if you simply mean to be in conversation. Noel provided an excellent example of how discussion could be had.

I certainly know what you mean about ideas and wanting to share them. I want to share them and get underneath their surface.

As far as I can tell, there is no “underneath the surface” of this idea, since it is only sketch of the possible relationship of certain kinds of systems to local effects and global prediction. There is no necessary and proven theoretical link between sand heaps and the result of sharing ideas. It is practically a ‘trope’ meant to stimulate thought. Some systems display these characteristics. Perhaps the sharing of ideas among populations do as well. What is there to say, really? If you thought that you were “getting underneath the surface” by asking about the rate of the flow of sand, you completely missed the point.

What use is that, I replied, comparing you to Brecht, who similarly denied discussion of his ideas.

I thought your point about sand flow was superfluous to the point in question, as well as your idea that this was a gravity based idea that could not be applied to other things. As I said, you might as well have asked what color the sand was. If you felt that I was shutting down rich avenues of penetrating thought, I simply experienced your questions as nearly meaningless.

Even though I have the capability to police your posts you can be sure I have never done it and that I don’t plan on doing it.

Please do exercise this capability. I look forward to those who actually have the autheticity to actually use what they threaten behind veils. Moderate me.

If I enjoyed posting ‘mock questions’ wouldn’t I be doing it more regularly such as some other posters do?

I have no idea what the reason for your post was. But I have yet to comprehend what the clarification of the rate of sand has to do with the principle being offered. What would it even matter if the curve changed? Honestly, it just sounded like someone who wanted to sound intelligent and make some kind of expertlike distinction that had nothing to do with the nature of the post itself. If I am wrong, and if yes the rate of sand is vital to the concept presented, please do explain, so that I too can learn.

Honestly, what a waste of both our energies. If you’d like to continue this then perhaps we can do so in private messages, if only to spare the other members from being embarassed on our behalf.

I have no fear of others being embarrassed on yours or my behalf.

Dunamis

…It’s been mentioned, more than once, that Brecht’s mistresses constituted half his genius in being co-creative. I dare not pronounce on the assumption but certainly he was a lucky bugger! If there is any truth to the story, Brecht’s reticence would be an act of self-preservation.

…so, Mr. D! ever consider getting a ‘second’ half as good as the first or better still, partitioning the second half into manifold forms of inspiration as if they were reincarnations of a Hindu Goddess travelling on beams of light…until the batteries run out! :smiley:

Du, I really am not whoever it is you hate. Get over that and maybe we can coexist peacefully. :slight_smile:

My question regarding rate of sandfall, which it now appears you chose to be rude about because you didn’t understand, is an attempt to bring the idea under closer scrutiny, particularly as to its application to philosophy. Your OP accepts the idea and asks, sort of, us to consider the implications of it.

My feeling is that at best, it’s a metaphor that doesn’t fully carry the responsibility and at worse it is useless even for its own cause - because possibly the only reason a pile of sand behaves in the manner wanted is when the rate of grains falling onto it is not a true constant (since you find this question meaningless we might never explore that). Constant is important here because that is the word used by the metaphor itself.

I see now that for you, it doesn’t matter that the metaphor may be a bad one, rather that you enjoy it and it made you smile and that’s really all you wanted to share.

Obw:

What’s so difficult in understanding this metaphor? Making the connection, which should be fairly easy, shouldn’t be compromised by a few objections to the applied laws of physics used in the demonstration of the metaphor.

It is the point of the metaphor for one to make associations without relying on exact scientific conditions involved therein. Hell, if that wasn’t the point, metaphor would be impossible. And in using metaphors, there is no way to really find better ones, if , by nature, a metaphor is associational and not a direct description of the events themselves, in the first place. A ‘better metaphor’ is a matter of interpretation and not something that can be achieved objectively as if it could lay out the point in notational logic.

What I gathered from the metaphor was the comparison of ethical activity to something like the distributive rates of ordered systems, and the tendencies to approach or escape an equilibrium. The metaphor was attempting to show that although individual movement within a whole can appear disorganized and chaotic, the effects nonetheless play a part in the total arrangement of the whole.

I think Dunamis was trying to say that ethics are to be considered objective in the sense that individual acts do create enduring effects, even if apparantly and immediately they cause disorder.

Very simple.

Too simple. The metaphor does not carry the responsibility it should when we’re talking about ethics. Acts of ethical value do not effect one another like grains of sand, nor are their effects always as unpredictable as the sand pile metaphor suggests. I’ve already noted that I misunderstood the point of this thread, and that the OP doesnt wish for it to be analysed as to its usefulness, merely its beauty/art/romance.

Ob,

Acts of ethical value do not effect one another like grains of sand, nor are their effects always as unpredictable as the sand pile metaphor suggests.

Besides the boldfaced apparent authority with which you state this, the truth is you have absolutely no idea if ethical acts function under similar Self-organized Criticality as do grains of sand. You have no idea if helping an old lady across the street will bring an avalanche of goodness, or not budge a grain, or even produce adverse effects, counter to its ethos, under such a model. The possibility of course does exist that the interpretive meanings behind behaviors may be organized under models of Criticality. Just because you are unaware of such really means very little. The concept behind such a model, and the pervasiveness of such threshold structures, is suggestive that the models we have taken for granted, are simply local models of a much larger process. The point is that such kinds of relating do organize and map things that commonsensically have been understood in other ways, or simply not understood at all.

Acts of ethical value do not effect one another like grains of sand, nor are their effects always as unpredictable as the sand pile metaphor suggests.

The model, if you read it carefully, does not suggest that the falling of a grain of sand is “always” unpredictably in the sense that your criticism implies. In fact if you took an individual grain of sand, calculated its mass and velocity, you could predict locally what its effect would be along the lines of classical physics. It would strike this grain at such and such an angle, impart such and such a force. This aspect of its effect would not be “unpredictable”. What would be unpredictable would be its effect upon the entire system. It is there that the local vs. global metaphor becomes illuminative, if even possibily instructive. That you foreclose the possibility of this illumination or instruction, is the mark of a closed mind.

and that the OP doesnt wish for it to be analysed as to its usefulness, merely its beauty/art/romance.

What is opaque to you is the “usefulness” of beauty/art/romance (and whatever other terms you would like to lump as “un-useful”). They are acts of Homo sapiens to order and confirm the universe, such as it may be conceived. Because these form a polarity for you, instead of understanding that all things fall under “use”, including ethical and ideational acts, you are confused by the application.

As Kauffman notes on the possible globality of such models,

“I suggest in the ensuing chapters how life may have formed as a natural consequence of physics and chemistry, how the molecular complexity of the biosphere burgeoned along a boundary between order and chaos, how the order of ontogeny may be natural, and how general laws about the edge of chaos may govern coevolving communities of species, of technologies, and even ideologies.”

As Noble Prize Economist Kenneth Arrow wrote,

“Stuart Kauffman gives us a rich and compelling picture of the new principle of self-organization in understanding the emergence of order in complex systems, whether life or society or the economy.”

Or as Noble Prize medical researcher Barry Blumberg wrote,

“Stuart Kauffman lucidly argues that, in addition to Darwinian selection, another force, the emergence of self-organized order from apparent chaos, determines the beautiful systems that make up the world and cosmos.”

Or as the Noble Prize physicist Philip Anderson wrote of Kauffman’s work,

“…there are few people in this world who ever ask the right questions of science, and they are the ones who affect its future most profoundly. Stuart Kauffman is one of these.”

Or as you say, its too simple…and not very “useful”. Odd how Noble Laureates in multiple disciplines see relevance, where you see uselessness.

Dunamis

None of those figures are referring to this particular metaphor, which is the singular object of my mild criticism in this case. I am not offering an objection to his theory (how on earth could I, layman as I am), only his choice of metaphor.

Tell me how brilliant the man is as much as you like, you won’t find me disagreeing that he has an acute mind. This metaphor, as it is presented by you, is too simple for it to be of use to the study of ethics, normative or otherwise, thanks to the clear lack of any positive correlation between an ethical act (source of the metaphor) and the falling sand (the metaphor). It does nothing more than obfuscate a perfectly decent d-n explanatory sentence (the one we have to ‘resort’ to having overcome the allure of the useless but beautiful artistic metaphor, such is the nature of most metaphors). This is not to say they are not emotive. You think emotion is helpful here and I disagree, which is an obstacle between us rather too fundamental, I feel, to overcome on an internet forum.

Anyone reading this should also note that Kauffman has no specific interest in ethics or philosophy in this case. Dunamis is doing a great job of lending scientific weight to a philosophical notion he rather likes, but nevertheless to imply your own interpretive application of another’s idea is supported by those who only supported the original, uninterpreted, unapplied, idea, is never a good idea.

Hopefully it is obvious that my objection is to the interpreted application of this metaphor by Dunamis, and I have no authority when it comes to an analysis of the metaphor for the purpose it was originally intended.

obw,

None of those figures are referring to this particular metaphor

Unfortunately, this “particular metaphor” is the core metaphor of his contribution, and the question is only how far it can be applied. The “simplicity” (which you object to) happens to reflect the pervasiveness of the phenomena. The line of Self-Organized Criticality Kauffman argues, seems to govern everything from Species extinctions to technological revolutions and economies - and he argues his points with precision and data, not vague hypotheses. This thread points to the possible extension of such a model to both ethical behaviors and idea communication. The “positive correlation between an ethical act” and the model is that Self-organizing systems are thought to work under such models, and since ethical behavior supposedly is a normative behavior, it certainly would fall under the self-regulating structures suggested here. That you do not see that can’t be helped. But people more brilliant than either you or I actually do. This doesn’t of course mean that they are right, but it does, at least to one who does not slam the door at the hint of the prospective, weigh in for consideration and contemplation.

Dunamis

Sorry about that, I took my time on an edit.

obw,

Hopefully it is obvious that my objection is to the interpreted application of this metaphor by Dunamis, and I have no authority when it comes to an analysis of the metaphor for the purpose it was originally intended.

As you have not read the work you have no idea how “it was originally intended”. If you want I can go and dig out the quote which specifies the extension of this idea by Kauffman to ideological development. I can also show where he specifically enjoins the concept of Ethics to such Self-organization. But since you are arguing in the dark when it comes to “original” intent, would it really be worth while? You have closed your mind and imagined an original intent that suits you.

Dunamis

You can post them if you like - I’ll do my best to follow in your footsteps and ‘take pleasure in your views’.

However, I am not about to start discussing something off topic, such as the original intent of this metaphor.

obw,

However, I am not about to start discussing something off topic, such as the original intent of this metaphor.

Amazing. You just put it on topic. Now that I point out that it, the pervasiveness of application, is central to his thesis, and not deviant as you suggest, suddenly its “off topic”. Just amazing.

Dunamis

Are we discussing the original idea of a MacArthur fellow as it pertains to the science of complexity or are we discussing your own interpretive application of the same to Philosophy? Which is it? It cannot be both in this thread.

So far, the original post and my subsequent posts have been on choice 2. If you want to start talking about choice 1, then it will be off topic in this thread.

Obw,

Are we discussing the original idea of a MacArthur fellow as it pertains to the science of complexity or are we discussing your own interpretive application of the same to Philosophy?

What you don’t understand is that my “own interpretative application” is contained within his thesis. I don’t believe there is anything I suggested that he would object to at all. That you would like to imply that there is a dramatic distinction (a 1 and a 2) in order to save yourself the embarassment of disagreeing rather dismissively with someone beyond your station, is almost humorous.

So far, the original post and my subsequent posts have been on choice 2. If you want to start talking about choice 1, then it will be off topic in this thread.

Whatever. If you feel that you have contributed anything to this thread other than simply being difficult, close-minded and confused, I suggest you are wrong.

Dunamis

Of course Kauffman would not object to self-organisation becoming (if it has not already) the new ‘biggie’. This says nothing more than what any biologist would say - that they expect everything to be a derivation. Ethics get lumped in here. As a philosopher, and not a biologist, I should rather hope you know better than to let such an implication (whether it be made explicit by you or created by you) fall uncontested.

But then again perhaps you are not bothered by this. I am starting to think Philosophy is not your main subject?

Obw,

Ethics get lumped in here. As a philosopher, and not a biologist, I should rather hope you know better than to let such an implication (whether it be made explicit by you or created by you) fall uncontested.

The thing is, Obw, Kauffman does the lumping, not me. And what he also lumps to Criticality is technological evolution and economics. Note, among the praising Nobel Laureates is an Economist. The stretch from technological innovation and economies, and ethics and idea communication is not great, and perhaps not a stretch at all. But to imply that you are objecting to my personal supposed over-extension of his work, what you call my “own interpretive application”, instead of his work itself, just to save yourself the embarrassment is both a product of your ignorance as what he contends - implying that this is somehow my invention - and your sadly closed mind, closed unless impressed by credentials. Now that you see credentials, you backtrack, trying to cover your ass. Nothing I presented here is not already presented by Kauffman himself.

Dunamis

Show me where Kauffman makes this statement. So far all you have done is interpret what you think he said, and argued that you ‘believe’ he wouldn’t have a problem with it.

obw,

I have no desire to dig through two texts - which you will never read - to form an argument for that which if you were the least bit knowledgeable of his position, would be clear. The only reason why you would like to argue this point is that you are embarrassed to have summarily dismissed the idea of a recognized man of brilliance as “too simple”. I won’t waste my time trying to deflate your already impugned ego. But in the OP is sufficient observation made by Kauffman to the human consequences of such a pervasive model. If you had read it, you would have already have known Kauffman’s position. He restates it in prospective detail multiple times in application to multiple disciplines - economics, ethics, technology included - in both At Home in the Universe and in Investigations.

“In such a poised world, we must give up the pretense of long-term prediction. We cannot know the true consequences of our own best actions. All we players can do is be locally wise, not globally wise. All we can do, all anyone can do, it hitch up our pants, put on our galoshes, and get on with it the best we can.”

Dunamis

That is obviously not confirmation of your claim that you are merely echoing his own words and not creating your own interpreted application of them. Its not confirmation of anything except that you see what you want to see in it.

I already know that Kauffman does not state what you think he does. My limited* study of this kind of nature/natural systems/structures (proofreading a paper on spatiotemporal fractal structures included) did not include a great deal of Kauffman but from the journal references I have seen over the last five years I have enough to know that it is not Kauffman but those around him who make these kind of intercorrelative designs upon his already fundamental theories. Firstly, I had a nagging doubt that the sand pile was a Kauffman idea and it took thirty seconds to confirm that. Secondly, he wasn’t interested in saying anything about ethics, and he certainly doesn’t imply it in that one phrase you insist on regurgitating.

I doubt you have read the material yourself, for you cannot support your claim without apparantly having to trawl through two separate texts, despite having said you could easily do so only a few posts back. However I do sympathise as I don’t enjoy reading the speculations of an overenthusiastic biologist any day of the week, regardless of how many world defining peptides he has found this month. All respect to his expertise in his own field, something I am no authority on.

The name Kauffman is synonymous with mathematical biology, and before you claim that mathematical is a saturated and thereby irrelevant term in this case, I remind you that it isn’t for Kauffman himself who would have it no other way. Your assumption that he would not mind your interpretation is of course a contradiction to your later backtracking by means of “It’s not an interpretation, it’s his own words.”

I’ve attempted subtlety to point you towards a possible crticism of the idea that SOC in any way applies to normative ethics. If you had any sort of an ear to any sort of a wall you would already know that Kauffman is not in particular focus for many Philosophers (of mind or otherwise) and for good reasons. Not least of all, he is a pain to read in a philosophical sense. After one has cut through the ‘art’ (no doubt why you love him) there is very little left for a philosopher to consider. You will claim this is me being closed minded, however you would be wrong as it is no fault to close a door on something that makes no attempt to pass through in the first place. You’re attempting a direct analysis of something that shouldn’t be directly analysed by this field, it’s like analysing Shakespeare’s contribution to the discipline - hence my focus on your specific appeal to this metaphor.

Note again how I ignore your insults - hopefully it teaches you something.

*Possibly, when you say ‘limited’ you mean something quite different to me. I would never consider joining a thread about a topic which I had never studied. That I would ‘have to read it’, given a certain treatment provided, does not mean I have not already done so anyway.