religious people will say that abortion is wrong because their bible says something about and the tradition of their church says something about it.
i would say abortion is ok because a life machine is worthless without a developed consciousness that provides a unique personality to the machine.
neither of us knows what is right. therefore we cannot tell people that what they are doing is wrong or right, becase we dont know. this same thing goes for all of bush’s favorite platforms.
the only thing giving bush his inspiration for enacting this legislation is that his RELIGION tells him that abortion is bad. nothing else provides definitive proof of abortion’s badness. the only evidence he will cite is the lord, which he is constantly in dialogue with through his hair dryer.
if you refuse to believe that he has no basis for banning abortion, tell me about the victimless crime of gay marriage. where does he get the authority for that one. nobody even dies with that one. its all god there, god over ruling the decision of all parties involved.
i cant believe that the supreme court didnt leap in and punch george bush in the face as soon as one second was spent on this RIDICULOUS influence of religious dogma over government. this awful waste of time, if nothing else, it is a huge waste of time.
please somebody explain to me why uttering one word about gay marriage is not a violation of church-state separation.
Where does the Bible say abortion is bad? Bush is a Protestant, which means he accepts the doctrine of [i]Sola Scriptura[/i], which means he goes only by what the Bible says, not decrees by the Pope or some other religious leader.
Now, it is true that religious people tend to believe that abortion is wrong. But you need more to actually demonstrate that it's a [i]religious[/i] belief.
In a theocracy (where we’re headed) there is no separation. That we are currently busy blurring the lines is of concern, but you have to acknowledge that GBs’ “mandate” of 51% of American voters see no problem with a theocracy. Makes you proud, huh?
makes me want to challenge those 51% to amend the constitution to make this place a theocracy. when they do that, fine, screw those retards and i will really leave this retardland and all of america will will regret this ultimate loss.
…wait, what?
i dont follow a religion. i say fetuses arent yet fully human. i am not justified in this belief therefore i cannot mandate that everybody aborts their babies.
bush says fetuses are the same as babies. he, for the same reasons as me, cannot justify this belief, he has never talked to a baby. he claims that he talks to god. if you asked him why he thinks abortion should be illegal, then he will either say “i talk to god” or he will use some retarded god-slang like “i believe in the sanctity of life”
there is no way to tell if a fetus is a life or not unless god tells us. we cannot use information told to us by god in order to make government policy, because not everybody will agree with what somebody elses god said.
uccisore what makes you and bush think a fetus has a soul and should be treated like a human? how do you know that? with so much certainty that you would actually ban our whole country from doing it?
your certainty comes from where? if its god then the gov needs to shut the hell up about it. it has no domain over controlling morality as evidenced by every single other attempt at doing so.
If the belief has nothing to do with religious matters, and isn't found in any religious texts, of course it's not a religious belief. The majority of Baptists believe that they are supposed to drive on the right-hand side of the road (since most Baptists live in the US or Canada). Does that make it a religious belief?
I would agree with you that it could be considered a Catholic religious belief, since Catholic authority has made declarations on abortion, and authoritarian decree is actually considered doctrine in that faith.
I don't know that. What I know is, a fetus is a living thing, and genetically, it's a human being. I also know that we can't tell precisely what point in development a pre-born human being is able to feel pain, fear, or whatever. Since we don't know, we have to choose ethically what side to error on. I believe the wise side to error on is not not kill fetuses, except in the most dire circumstances, since what we know for sure is that they are a form of human life.
While my opinion on abortion isn’t religiously motivated, I still disagree with what you’re saying here. In the case of general ethics, I think people have the right to shape policy regardless of the source of their beliefs. For example, if I think stealing is wrong, I should be able to vote and pass laws about stealing regardless of if I got my idea from The Bible, the Koran, The Urantia book or Atlas Shrugged. The only exception to that, is if the moral belief is an actual religious custom- i.e., I think that the seperation of Church and State would come up if people tried to outlaw eating pork or women wearing pants instead of dresses. I admit that the line between general ethics and religious custom is at times blurry.
You mean attempts like outlawing lynchings, or letting women vote? “Morality” doesn’t only apply to things you disagree with, you know.
it’s found in catholic religious texts, it’s not found in baptist or evangelical religious texts, but religions have alot of unspoken beliefs.
what are you talking about, that’s not a belief it’s fact, and driving law. If they believed that they were supposed to drive on the left side of the road, that belief wouldn’t last very long because they would be hit head on by someone following the rules of the road.
but like I said there are unwritten doctrines in other faiths, like abortion to baptists.
‘belief’ and ‘fact’ are not exclusionary. Most Baptists believe they should drive on the right-hand side of the road. Is it a religious belief?
Most people who are anti-abortion are religious. Is it a religious belief?
Again, I’m asking you to define a religious belief. Is a religious belief simply any belief that religious people have? What is it that makes a stance on abortion a religious belief, other than your say-so?
What I know, is how the words ‘fact’ and ‘belief’ are defined:
A fact is an actual state of affairs,
A belief is an idea with the capacity to be true or false.
A belief could correspond to a fact, or it could not. Hence, there is the [i]belief[/i] that one ought to drive on the right side of the road, and there is the fact it corresponds to. To say that it's not a belief amounts to saying that nobody believes it, which is obviously false. Your usage of 'fact' to mean 'true belief' and 'belief' to mean 'opinion-based belief' is unprofessional, non-traditional, and confusing.
ucci this is crazy. you think theres a reason why youre the only one posting on your side of this argument? no offense.
there are no facts to support your claim that a fetus is equal to a baby. we cant talk to a fetus and ask how it feels about abortion, and i have a good reason to believe that its not a baby the same as you have an opposite belief. you base your belief on the ‘sanctity of the temple of the holy spirit’ and i base my belief on ‘there is no holy spirit, there is only consciousness that is gained only by experience, a fetus is an empty machine’
imagine that it made sense for me to mandate that everybody gets abortions. then imagine i used my line of reasoning to argue for that mandate. you would disagree because i have no evidence to back up my claim. well thats what its like when you say a human life is sacred, i say it has no consciousness, you say it doesnt need one to be sacred, neither of us has any idea.
lets make this argument a tad simpler. with gay marriage, nobody gets hurt, not even people who might turn into people someday. nobody.
there is no reason whatsoever to ban gay marriage other than the fact that its really weird. i imagine a mans naked ass and vomit. the thought of men loving that thing makes me vomit. this is not a reason to stop them from doing what they want, its my fault for having correctly balanced hormones, not their maliciously intended actions against me.
the ONLY reason to ban gay marriage, as cited many times by dumbya, is that ‘marriage is sacred’ ie the hairdryer clearly stated that god hates gay people and will bring plagues and disasters across the land, maybe even hurricanes in florida (retarded jerry fallwell thats what he said) if we continue to allow them to live their lives in peace.