Sexual Amorality.

[size=150]Sexual Amorality. [/size]

Recently I have seen and read many threads pertaining to the morality or immorality of sexual practices on ILP, and all seem to lack, beyond simple rhetorical mechanisms, an ability to convince. This suggests there is something fundamentally wrong with using morality and sexuality in the same sentence.

Perhaps we should take things right back to the beginning and build from there…?

There was a bang, and a lot of energy got very energetic all of a sudden. It wasn’t too happy about this. It decided to do something about it - all the concentrated energy in this baby universe decided to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity. Entropy. It came up with some ingenious ways to do this. Planets for example, suns. All wonderful ways to spread useful energy around in a thin layer of useless heat. And Life. In a large enough support medium, any event that does not contravene the extant physical laws inherrant to that medium, becomes inevitable. Amino-acids form spontaneously in-vitro, if the right chemical pre-cursors and conditions prevail. And later, replicators, DNA strands, single-celled lifeforms… And much much later - Us. Each wiggle and thrash of lifes’ fledgling limbs and pseudopods adding a little more entropy to the pile. Complexity out of simplicity, bought at the price of increasing heat-death that much faster.

Life has only one prime-directive: To create more life.

To facillitate this end, it has two fundamentals precepts:

  1. Self-preservation.
  2. Reproduction.

It has no quality. It has no direction. It has no morality. It does not care about getting better, it does not know what better is. Evolution is just what happens to it when it interacts with the external world. Life creates life. End of story. Then life invented sex. And things got, quite literally, sticky.

Two sexes arose, and life got a drive to have sex, sex, sex, some sex, and after a break for its snackfood of choice, some more sex.

Sometimes however, life gets the whole sex business a little mixed up. Male has sex with male, female with female, and all the rest of our sexual predillictions.

This is because life’s little programmers, genes, are very close mouthed “need to know” types. They give their progeny only the absolute instincts necessary to facillitate the 2 defining precepts. But that is all they are told. It is all they are born knowing. Any particular mind, animal or human, gets into the fleshy vehicle it is given, and instinctively knows how to use it. You don’t have to learn how to breathe, but you can learn how to control it. You don’t need to know how to send a nerve impulse to your muscles, but you get more refined in your movements with practice. You don’t need to know how to get an errection. It just happens, usually in the presence of a naked lady, sometimes for absolutely no reason at all, on a bus.

For procreation to happen, there is no reason for us to instinctively know that sex leads to babies. Only for us to have an innate drive to have sex.

Indeed, a gene with coded instinctive ‘knowledge’ concerning the link between sex and babies would be at best redundant, as the sex drive ensures it will happen anyway, wether the lifeform concerned has the gene or not, and for evolution, minimalism is always the way to go, less is always more, if the same degree of efficiency can be achieved. Baggage hampers, baggage slows you down, however minutely, in a long enough time span, significance arises. A gene which carries redundant information would not be automatically conserved, and so would tend to die away.

And at worst, such a gene would be restrictive, non-promotional of sex. Think of it from the female POV: A gene which says by anology:

“Hey girl, would you like a cookie…? This cookie is a special cookie, eat it, and for a few minutes you will feel as if you’ve gone to heaven. Beware girlfriend, before you bite, of the side effect: After you’ve finished eating, and returned to Earth, your whole body and its chemistry will go through 9 months of upheaval, and for the last 2-3 of those months, you’ll be near-incapacitated, and extremely vunerable. And finally, you will go through a period of agony as intense as anything you will ever experience, short of death, which, by the way, may well be the result. But on the other hand, you will produce another cookie-maker in the process… Now, wanna cookie…?”

A useful gene…?

No wonder then, if you could ask a primitive human where those little humans come from and why, and he’ll say, “Well my woman just keeps making the damn things…” He’s a smart chap, the penny will probably drop later on, but instictively-speaking, he hasn’t a clue. It’s better for him not too.

As far as life’s concerned, sex is what matters, and babies are just what happen after. Sex has no conscious intent or purpose beyond the generation of pleasure and the fulfilment of need. It just is. Love is what creates the psycholgical link that exists before and after the event of sex, and goes some way to ensuring the survival of the infant by bonding parents and child in a triangulation of support. But love is another story. Love and sex are usually concurrent, but not necessarily so.

Life existed before it became so self aware as to be able to question its actions consciously. It was still driven to have sex. Life existed before the concepts of right and wrong were invented. It was still driven to have sex.

The sex drive pre-empts morality.

Sex is ‘dirty’, but we do it anyway. To not do it is to deny our basic humanity, our basic tenent of being a form of life. Life without sex is no life at all. Whatever form of sex you are driven to explore.

Life is sex.

Ask a gun if killing is ethically wrong, immoral, and if it could speak, it would say…
“But I’m a gun… I facillitate killing. It’s… What I do.”
“But killing is wrong…!”
“But, but, it’s my function… My reason for being… I can’t do anything else… I have… No choice.”

And neither do we. Sometimes our choice of target is out of our hands. But we fire anyway. We have to, we are driven to. It’s what defines us. No morality involved, morality comes after we come.

One must approach sex from the tangent of the animal, the evolutionary, the language of benefit to life plural. To approach it from rationality, is to talk about diets to a cheetah, you can impose a diet forcably sure, but don’t expect him to go on one voluntarily.

Using this approach makes explaining the why’s and how’s of mankinds views of the more ‘perverse’ sexual practices have formed, and are now changing. (I use ‘perverse’ loosely, evolutionarily speaking, perversion does not exist, only what works, and what does not, in promoting life plural.)

For example: Homosexuality…

Very simply. In expanding populations, with enough resources, a shortish natural lifespan and the resultant high turnover of generations, a group with a high proportion of homosexuality, wether gene-led or meme-led, will tend to increase in numbers at a slower rate than a group which is more rigidly heterosexual. And therefore be at a numerical disadvantage in conflicts over territory and what have you.

In only this situation, is homosexuality a distinct liability with regard to group survival. And wether you like it or not, our basis for defining moral and immoral actions is deeply rooted in this concept. Our ideas of ‘right action’ and ‘wrong action’ well from the basic instinct to survive on an individual level, in the furtherence of your personal genetic line, leading naturally to the group level, because your group supports and protects you just as you do it. What is good for the group, what is good for its prolification, is good for you. Anything, any trait, any behavioural preference or prediliction that goes against group survival or numerical advantage, group coherrence or stability must become deemed ‘immoral’. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the group that deems immoral these things (homosexuality amongst them) and forbids them, will prosper and dominate, and in doing so, eliminate other systems of morality as the adherrents to these moral systems are physically killed in conflict or begin to emulate what they see as a winning social strategy. Other moral systems must either get on the bandwagon or be crushed by it.

I’m not going to argue God’s existance. But religion, the visible facet of the God concept, is man-made. A priest is also a man. He puts words that humans can understand into God’s mouth. God says: “Go forth and multiply.” To further this tenent, it is no surprise that the priest says, “a sodomite is an abomination against God”. He has to, otherwise his group dwindles, and his version of God, (which he may have sublimated into his sex-drive, if his religion bans his actual chance of physical sexuality or procreation), dies with it.

But now our groups, our nations, have reached near-maximal proportions in the stable countries of the West, and in conflict, it is technology, rather than brute population that is the main effector. Beyond catastrophy, the survival of the group en toto is assured. ie: the ancient foundation for a bias against homosexuality has crumbled. We have ‘gone forth’ we have ‘multiplied’. Mission accomplished Mr. God, sir.

Indeed, further multiplication will soon if not already become a factor detrimental to the well-being of the group.

And yet, love and sex remain as important human drives as ever. The satiation of human sexuality is a requirement fundamental to the stability and coherrence of the host society. Sexual frustration, wether homo or hetero, leads to acts of desperation, acts that break the consensual agreements of conduct and society’s common criminal penalties, as one drive - the drive to sexual satisfaction overcomes a lesser drive, the drive to social conformity. Frustration → factions and conflict → unstable society → readjustment of society’s ‘morals’ → Fulfilment → stabilized society → prosperous society.

Homosexuality as an inheritable genetic proness, is conserved within the genome, as it does not conclusively pre-empt procreation. Like any other behavior with a joy-buzzer at the end, it can be learned. It can also occur by accidental disruption of hormone levels within the foetus at the 6 week stage resulting in a ‘female-type’ brain in a male body. Homosexuality is a given within any society of humans. It cannot be ‘stamped out’.

It does not matter that homosexual sex cannot lead to children, the conscious/subconscious mind, where sexual proclivity resides, may know this, but the body does not. As far as the body is concerned, pushing your penis into warm cosy cove, be it an anus or a vagina, is always a good idea. Sexual pleasure and procreation, have always been entwined. The body makes no distinction. There is no innate knowledge of the connection between sex and offspring.

“Go forth and multiply” only works when there is somewhere to “go forth” to. When the edge of the boundary is reached, it becomes “Stay put and stabillize.”

Hence, the maximal population society which continues to deem homosexuality ‘immoral’ can only self-generate its own instability, and detriment. A pissed off gay with a gun can create just as much havoc as a pissed off hetero with a gun. The maximal society that is more tolerant to its fringe elements, within reason, will fair better.

Consensual Homosexuality loses its social stigma.

But does this also open the door for other, more overtly ‘evil’ sexual practices…? pedophillia for example, by linking sex only to the beast inside, will we allow all forms of ‘sex’ to run wild and rough shod, even over our children…?

Anyway, why is child-molestation so abhorrent…? Worse than rape, worse than murder…? Damage to the child, psychological or physical…? No, for evolution a sexually immature creature has no impact until it has shown itself able to reach maturity, and re-produce, that such damage occurs is true, but it cannot be the basis for a species-wide aversion.

Simply Pedophilla is evolutionarily/socially stupid. It’s an immense (shared) risk for the momentary gain of (individual) pleasure. It’s behavior almost certain to get you (and your genetic kin) killed.

A progression of ‘sins’:

*You trespass on my territory, I and my clan may welcome you, give you shelter and food. Or, if you catch us on a very bad day or you act disrespectfully, we may cut off your head and stick it on a post.

(A compulsive trespasser is a danger, mainly to himself, and a liability to his ‘parent’ group, in that he risks a small but increasing possibility of starting a conflict over territory.)

  • Theft: You steal my cow. That was my cow, I fed it, raised it, looked after it, I invested my energy in it. It was mine. If I have a whole lot of cows, I may well give up on you after a bit of searching. If I have few cows, I’m likely to hunt you down and hang your thief ass from the nearest pole and use you as a scarecrow.

(A compulsive thief is a major risk to himself, and quite a risk to his ‘parent’ group, in that he runs the risk of revenge attacks on the possessions of his group.)

*You rape/kidnap a woman of my clan. She was ours, we had a great investment in her, she was under our protection. Her virginity, fertility and prospects for bonding with another were our assets. You took her, without our permission. You took her without paying us due tribute for our investments. You took her without extending your protection to her, and so relieving us of our duty. Depending on her age, beauty, ‘marital’ status and usefulness to our group we will expend varying degrees of effort in finding you and killing you slowly.

(A compulsive rapist is very likely to die early on in his career, and think Helen of Troy on a small scale, very likely to embroil his ‘parent’ group in major conflict. ie: Having a rapist in your group is bad for that group, and killing him yourselves before he gets you all into trouble is a good idea.)

*You rape my child. You hurt my child. You kill my child. My child is my most precious possession. It carries half my genes, it carries my legacy, it carries my only chance of something approaching immortality. Even more compelling than my drive to have sex, is my drive to protect my offspring, and the lives of my future offspring by removing any threat. Ergo: You are dead. And such is my outrage and grief, I will tar your entire genetic strain with the same brush of potential pedophillia, hunt down your family and friends and slaughter them all like cattle.

(A compulsive child-molester is a walking dead man. The family of a child-molester are living on borrowed time. The friends and associates of a child-molester are at serious risk. The only thing to do that makes any kind of social sense with a child-molester in a group is for that group to kill him, before his actions get them killed too.)

Natural law. Morals arising from group survival. Irrational behavior carrying no benefits, for extreme (shared) risk → Immoral. Evil. Bad.

Of course now we don’t really have to worry about these things. Retribution and revenge have been co-opted in the intrests of social stability by the state. The shared group risks of individual actions have been difused. Did anything happen to the wife and family of the Yorkshire Ripper…? Beyond a little social consequence…? A few less invitations to dinner…? Nope.

Only the extremely emotive crimes of rape, and child-rape will tempt a return to vigilantism, someone hurts a child, and the first reaction of even unrelated people, is to howl for revenge, think then, of the terrible instinctual tides of retribution occuring within the body and mind of the parent. But of course, the police, the guardians of social stability, will and must stop them from running amok. Seeing that the satisfaction of this revenge will only destabillize the group en-masse. lowering everyone’s chances of survival.

No big surprise then, that slowly and timidly, the snakes begin to raise themselves from the dirt, and whisper that maybe it isn’t so bad afterall.

Pedophillia, is a perversion in that it decreases the chances of survival of the exhibitor of such behavior, and his bloodline. All else is just modern-day intellectual frippery.

Homosexuality within a group large enough not to need to breed excessively to better it’s chances of survival, is tolerable, and if it increases the social cohesiveness of that group, to be promoted.

Pedophillia can only cause dissention, retribution and instability within how ever large a group. And is to be abhorred. Now, then and always.

In conclusion, I hope I have shown that sexuality, despite being amoral with regard to human conscious rationality, and impossible to adequately judge or justify simply by this method, is not without its stopgaps and checks, it is policed by an older, more organic process, that of group dynamics and survival. There is an inevitability to sexuality that precedes and pre-empts human morality, and it will continue to do so, until we cease to be mortal, and evolutionary forces lose their grip.

Tab.

'Twas a good read.
=)

Cheers Dan.

Hi Tab,

I liked this, it has some convincing arguements. I particularly liked how abhorrence of pedophillia and a tolerance of homosexuality emerges from the same ‘moral classificaiton’ scheme. A believe this thesis is tested well in our current western society (which is no-longer solely influenced by a majority of ultra-conservative Christian viewpoints).

If we could take a survey of the overall population of western society (minus those heavily influenced by religious dogma), I think a very high percentage would view pedophillia as intolerable, while also viewing homosexuality as tolerable. I think this speaks of either an inherent ‘knowledge’ in the human species of right/wrong in the context you presented above (inherent being the product of some sort of genetic ‘knowledge’ or other forms), or an overall social conditioning (which may fundamentally emerge from an overall innateness anyway).

Well done

Thanks Noely G, consider cockles of Tab’s heart thoroughly warmed. High praise indeed.

I am very glad I read this.

You said a lot of things in ways I could understand them, and it makes a lot of sense.

Thank you, it was also a very good read, you are an engaging writer. I wish I could keep peoples attention.

Good Day!
-Harrison :wink:

Thanks Gloam, my head begins to outswell my hat. :wink:

=D> Damn good read. I agree with most points but I think you put too much faith in nature having a set direction it is heading in. When you observe the human condition today you are not looking at the same human as Nietzsche was looking at a hundred or so years ago, or for that matter the human Plato was looking at 3000 years ago. Ultimately, humanity changes, developments in society are assimilated into our subconscious through the generations. Marcus Aurelius once said that every single thing that happens occurs completely naturally. It seems to me that man, including his sex drive, may in future tread a different path and the sex drive will become more controlable. It is this inconstency in human development which I feel allows me to agree that morality cannot be applied to sex. If you have no universal human condition how can you have a universal morality? Christ, I sound like a hippy.[/b]

Thankyou - Regarding your points I think it will be a while yet before memetic evolution overrides genetically ingrained drivers. Of course a human of even a century ago is a wildly different creature on a purely learned-social basis from the current model - but as far as genetics are concerned, and the behavioural baggage that comes with them - they are still exactly the same. A couple of hundred years is nothing in comparison to the eons which have shaped us.

Purely rationally, the stigma attached to some facets of sexuality is and will be removed, but the gut reactions will take a while yet. We are a flexible creature, but some things are written in stone inside us. It is questionable even that in removing them, we will retain the things that make us recognizably ‘human’.

And you are right, morality is never universal, only ever a reflection of the consensual-conscience’s comfort-zone.

Thankyou again, for your words and thoughts.

Tab.

Nothing to add, just wanted to say great paper.

Glad you liked it. Cheers.

If you find the time you might consider reading the essay I posted not long ago. I say this because our approaches were completely different. Yours was might I dare say a purely science base one. Mine falls more into philosophy category. Why I bring this up is because while our reasons were completely different I think we come to the same conclusions on what is moral on most issues.

In case you don’t have the time to read my essay here is what I mean. I came to the following conclusion

Right and wrong is determine by a balance between these truths. First never cause suffering. Two only cause harm to another in order to stop suffering. Finally never hinder someone else freedom that does not affect another person freedom.

You can say the never cause suffering and survival instincts are one and the same. I say this because you mention group survival. In group survival not causing harm to other in the group is a must in order for the group to function. This also falls into the second statement in my definition. If someone does cause suffering within the group the reaction to stop it will be quick. Like your example of parents protecting there child. The final statement I make I think is your overall theme in a strange round about way. In that nature determines what is right and wrong and if it does not harm the goal of nature there no reason to call it immoral (I am sorry if I miss-understood you essay and please correct me if I did). This means freedom to me.

To me I find these connections extremely interesting. That you can look at something through a science base approach and a philosophy approach and comes up with answers that are totally different but yet yields the same results on what is right and wrong.

Or maybe I am delusional and seeing connections that don’t really exist. That always a possibility with me :stuck_out_tongue:.

Either way I enjoyed reading your essay and thank you for writing it.

Hey mgoldb2,

Read your essay, glad you have some kind of world-view sorted out on the morality side of things, mine’s still a bit tenuous. Will be writing something more purely morality-based in a few days or so, we’ll compare notes then.

I think that morality in humans arises as a natural extension of behavioural checks extant in species less ‘specialized’ mentally, but I’ve still got some tinkering to do.

Anyway, thanks for your comments, hope to hear from you again.

Tab.

You’re convincing because your thinking is scientifically honest and I like that. So, let me have you some of my thoughts on your paper (third person singular works better from now on).

Personally, I don’t have much reverence for ethics based on genetics. I know they serve as an illustration, but there’s something inhuman, anyway, in the words “You bastard, those were half of my fine genes!”. The more complex approach should take them into account, of course, but let us not bind our thinking with biological and sociological perspective only! The author neatly draws a picture of some clans (I somehow pictured it to myself that way), where solutions are immediately sought and found. What are we missing here? Yes, the cultural view. I’ll get to that point again soon. But most importantly, there’s no real mention of the emotional basis for the moral judgments. I mean, resentments are real and so are hangovers. But if you really want something, no rationalizing will make you any happier than getting what you want. The problem with sex (if there’s any) is not then to do it or not, but when, where and with whom. Basically. And that goes quite along the naturalistic way the author so smoothly undertakes. But - yes, there always has to be some but - the culture shapes the thinking, even though the organism lives by its own rights. To sharpen my point here, I’m going to ask a question: in ancient Greece, where rich guys were permitted to entertain themselves with little boys and not much really was known about genetics, what grounds would anyone have to have for judging it immoral? Or would anyone do it at all?

To conclude, there is no one convincing ground for moral judgments, and no science can provide people with it to the extent some would wish it to. There still will be thinkers and doers, both thinking about it - in any way - and both doing it anyway.

Note: Some time ago, I read about American zen centers dealing with the problem (should it be a problem for them, that’s completely another story). They had a master who, quite open-mindedly, described the situation with words “Sex? Problems. No sex? Problems”. No one quoted any student’s response to that, but mine would be “I’d rather have sex and problems than problems and no sex at all”. Or something of that kind.

Hey Rewucki,

Thanks for your commentary, and the time you took to reply. To your question of judged ‘immorality’.

The way I look at it the actual conceptual judgement of some thought or deed as ‘immoral’ or ‘moral’ is immaterial, unless it carries consequential penalty or reward for the group or individual involved. There is only action, and consequence - the morality of the event is attached later, with the luxury of hindsight. If you like, you can almost see the history of any group recorded in its moral codex.

The greeks and their little-boy/youth fetish was enabled by a group/society large and stable enough for blind eyes to be turned or ‘spare’ sons to be used as bargaining chips perhaps to quarry the favours of the educated/rich echelons of society - ie the way the society was set up - any member who killed another to protect the posterial chastitiy of his or her son would face social/physical penalties greater than the reward of having one more unscathed gene-carrier. This skewing would tend to favour famillies’ who permitted male/youth sexuality prosperity and placement, and penalize those against. How could this skewing arise…? Possibly right at the outset of the empire-building - when numbers are so few the views of a single individual can snowball to effect the whole, especially if later ‘sanctified’ by writing them into a religious dogma or constitution. (Imagine - would America still have spoken English as the national language if there’d been a few more none-English present at its instigation…?)

This self-fulfilling prophecy means than in a (closed-system) host society permissives would dominate (socially/ideologically) after enough generations. A stable society re-inforces its own morés given time and isolation, via dispensing social rewards/penalties in (tightening) accordance with its own criteria.

However - it was not a closed system and the sexual system was not (wholly) consensual - ie - rather than stigma-free homosexual practice relieving social pressure, it caused internal social tension as (some) youths bore grudges into adulthood - leading to disruption, on whatever scale. Also external racial tensions as social credos clash - “barbarian at the door” syndrome: “Those fucking perverts screw boys… Let’s get them.”

Both these would tend to penalize a proto-permissive society against a backdrop of unpermissive societies in the general context of unmaximalized populations. Decadence–>Fall etc.

Anyway - just guessing as usual - and thanks again for your post.

Jon.

There is a contradiction here, if I am reading this correctly. You are saying that there is a “prime-directive” to create more life, but then say that this prime-directive has no direction. Something cannot be both teleological (functioning toward a purpose) and naturalistic (lacking any purpose or formal goals).

Now, I think you’ve committed a post hoc fallacy here and made a sweeping generalization. Yes, it does follow that reproduction and self-preservation perpetuate life, but it does not follow that these are the reasons why we have self-preservation instincts or reproduce sexually.

Historically, this may be what got us here, and we are likely to do it again. However, to use self-preservation and reproduction as merely tools for the prime-directives makes them elements of the greater prime-directive. This would lead you to have to say (much like that in the movie, Equilibrium), “We exist in order to continue our existence.” If everything else was gone from life, the joys and sorrows of human sentiment, would anyone want to live it?

This is where I am at my strongest agreement with the likes of Schopenhauer and Nietzsche. Natural sciences may explain causes and effects, but it could not explain purposes. Purpose can only be explained by a sort of objective-setting entity, namely the wills, which are particular to every person, but can be collectively understood as our Will, or the general things for which all people strive. I have argued for an egoist position, that we do so for self-interest, whatever the objects of those particular self-interested ends may be.

You even defend my position, yourself.

To quote myself: “Life is an accident of coitus; living is a challenge of impulse.”

However, I wholly disagree with this statement:

This could lead to an idea that the ends justify any means, so long as the end is to make babies. Imagine if someone waged a war on that basis. Would you bother with the deaths of hundreds of thousands of countrymen and peers if it gave you the promise to reproduce?

I’ll challenge the once these are answered, since a rebuttal of these points is crucial for the remaining argument to stay intact.

With you tomorrow most likely, thanks for the reply Philosophemer.

Okay, a little earlier than expected, the all-singing, all dancing reply.

Hmm… Let me be more precise. A replicator replicates itself. That is its only function. It has no direction. However, it is not alone. It exists as a part of a triumvirate: Replicator, habitat, death. The twin vectors of habitat and death lend direction. Blind, unsensing - They drive the bus. A ball is round. It rolls. But it has no direction. Only a location. But if that location happens to be the top of a hill… Suddenly direction occurs. And the mindless, ‘goaless goal’ of this direction - a state of rest vs. its location.

Perhaps there is a problem of equating ‘function’ with ‘purpose’ in your definition of teleological.

I can do nothing save shake my head and say: “It does, it does, it does.”

One lifeform exists. It has no innate drives. It replicates, or doesn’t, completely at random. It consumes some amount of a given resource during its viable lifespan. Another mutant variant arises - Lifeform+ This has an innate drive to replicate. It consumes some amount of a given resource during its viable lifespan.

Over time, in a habitat of abundant resource, which becomes more prevalant…? Later, in a time of scarcity and competition, perhaps violent competition… Which becomes extinct…?

Anything, any behavioural trait, any physical attribute, that increases the likelyhood of life successfully replicating within a given habitat… Becomes inevitable, ensconced within a lifeform of some kind or other, over time. We have it, because we were always going to have it. You may as well ask “Why is a wheel round…?”

Sexual reproduction, btw, is a whole different ballgame, lets stick with replication for now.

You don’t get a choice wether to live or not. You just do. You wake up in a crib somewhere, and go “Oh, right, I’ll have been born then…” Yes “We exist in order to continue the existance of life(plural)” Is aesthetically empty. But I’m sorry, nobody ever promised us flowers.

And yes, a whole bunch of people would live it. The question of ‘want to’ wouldn’t even cross their minds. There are stoics as well as epicureans in the world you know… :laughing:

Agreed - Natural processes do not have purposes, they just are. Only made things have ‘purpose’ and that lent by a maker. A car’s purpose is to ease travel. A beavers dam’s purpose is to deepen his mating pool. Purpose only arises in the relation of an object or tool to a user. Wether this ‘user’ must be sentient and aware is another question. Does the beaver lend his dam a purpose… Or does our noticing of the relationship between beaver and dam lend it purpose…?

The sex-drive pre-empts morality.

Of course it does. A drive to replicate is an attribute that will inevitably arise in a lifeform. Sexual reproduction, and all the organic and behavioural paraphernalia involved is a replicative strategy involving the maximization of useful mutation while minimizing lethal ‘time-wasters’ and as such - simularly driven.

Sentience came after. Memetic morality trailed genetic morality. A simple thought experiment: You don’t want children. What is the easiest way to not have children…?

a) Contraception. [size=75](Okay - I’ll try that…)[/size]
b) Sterillization. size=75[/size]
c) To not have sex. size=75[/size]

Another. You are a devotee of a God. This requires a life-long vow of celebacy. How best to keep it…?

a) Willpower. [size=75](Okay - I’ll try that…)[/size]
b) Isolation. size=75[/size]
c) Total castration. size=75[/size]

Sex precedes rationality. Sex precedes everything.

Might I advise a revision of the use of “prime-directive,” then? You can make an assessment of habituation without implying direction or purpose, which the word “directive” does.

I should expand on this. Our coital history does not determine our want to have coitus, ourselves. Plenty of people are born to sexually healthy, reproductive people, but that fact does not make them want to reproduce. Plenty of people choose to not have children, even though fully capable.

I disagree that lifeforms have “an innate drive to replicate.” Some people detest the idea of procreation and sexual encounters, and if you make it a claim of denial of their instincts, then you are making a statement that is non-falsifiable (a la Popperian falsificationism).

Even Stoics were living toward a purpose of universal reason. And also, Stoics are willing to have their emotions, but demand that they exhibit them only when appropriate. Even Stoics lived for aesthetics.

The problem of saying that we are self-replicators in order to be self-replicators is exactly one of “existing to continue our existence.” According to you, this is not purposive, so the best you would say is that we “exist, and so continue our existence.” My point is to say that not all thinking agents live toward this end. There are plenty of examples (suicide and acts of “altruism”) where people put their interests or goals outside of securing the survival of themselves and their progeny.

If your example is not purposive (teleological), then you really aren’t arguing against this point. People devise purposes far and wide, some within and some outside of Darwinian theory, but to pose that the reason why we live is now 1.) beyond the scope of your arguments or 2.) somehow attempting to make a claim of purpose to Darwin, which is inconsistent.

These two arguments are defenses for the statement: “Sex precedes morality,” not to say, “Sex preempts it.”

When you say, “Sex preempts morality,” it seems you are telling me that sex “appropriates, seizes, or takes itself before” morality. And I’m telling you that very few could ever be so horny to want to kill babies to make babies.

You could argue that it is an axiomatic basis by which people make moral judgments (“Something is good if it leads to more babies and bad if it doesn’t.”), but someone will counter this by pointing out examples of descriptively good moral acts that do not lead to the production of babies (giving a castrated miser a gift, for example). Thus, the idea that sex preempts morality in the sense that sex “has precedence or predominance over morality” is challenged by both of my arguments. The former spoke against predominance. The present one speaks of precedence (as morality is concerned).

So Phil, when you were reading were you able to get some kind of grip on what I actually wanted to say…? Or did you just see a great excuse to jump on the good ship Semantic for a quick cruise…?

How much is plenty…? Enough to be anyway near the norm…? Plenty of people have funny ears, even though they were born to parents with healthy, normal ears. Go figure, er, I forgot what I was trying to prove… The sex drive requires effort to supress. Conversley, it requires absolutely no effort to supress my drive to not have children.

How much is some…? And I wonder if those people who detest sexual encounters think: “There is something wrong with me”…? I wonder how many are very unhappy about this, and seek therapy…?

Conversely, I wonder how many people walk into the Shrink’s office and say: “Hey Doc. I like sex - I know, it’s disgusting, I can hardly look at myself in the mirror anymore…”

Altruism, if kept within the social-group limit of 150, benefits your offspring, and yourself. ie: A selectable trait. Suicide. Yah. Everyone commits suicide these days. Oh dear, the human race will end.

As a ball tends to roll, life tends to keep on existing, once it arises.

Semantics. Both share the property of “coming before” which is quite fitting, given the subject.

Genocide anyone…? Aggressive colonization…?

Er… Well [size=75][cough][/size] Yes. Definitely. You so totally kicked my arse there… Not.*

jon.

[size=75]* I’m old - sue me - Wayne’sWorld is as cool as I get.[/size]