Ship of Theseus

James, I don’t think that accepting contradictions means that reality has to have them inherent in it universally, it might just mean that we have to accept the limits of language and see that inevitably, if we talk long enough we fall into contradiction. Socrates knew that. But, it doesn’t necessarily mean that the world is inherently contradictory, it just means that the language we use is because we can’t describe the one without reference to the many, and knowledge requires us to distinguish and identify objects and when we go to define those objects, the best we can do is maximum specificity in language, which might be the formalization of language, and then we’ve got a map and it becomes easier to identify and define the things we’re looking at as that level of specificity is reached but even then, inevitably, the conditions encompassed the definition it allow things into the same categories when we want them, or know them to be different.

At a certain point in communication, people begin to gesture toward things in addition to the words they are using to describe them. You might say, the pencil is yellow. Then I might say, so this banana is the pencil? Then you’d say, “the pencil is yellow and made of wood, so no the banana is not the pencil because it’s not made of wood.” Then I’d say, “so this piece of wood that I broke off a tree and painted yellow is the pencil?” and you’d say, “no, the pencil is yellow, round, made of wood and contains some lead compound that sticks out the end so that it’s able to write things on paper.” Then I’s say, “so this pencil in my hand is the pencil?” And you’d say, “no THE pencil is this one”, and the only way you’d eventually be able to get me to stop would be to point at the one you’re talking about. Language can only take us so far, at least some people think so. Now you may come up with some rigid designator for the particular pencil in question and refer to it as, “the pencil I used to sign my name on the back of my selective service card” and I’d have a great idea of it, but even then in a pile of pencils that are identical in every way other than their location, you’d need to point out the one you’re talking about.

“Same” is the illusion of permanence.
There is no paradox here; no contradiction. The puzzle invites us to consider the illusion of permanence. “Same” only applies to an idea, never an object.
Consider the orange, a different orange is still the same fruit. And although oranges are in a continual state of evolution, and that no orange is exactly the same we have an idea of the Same thing; singular orange which is slowly either growing or rotting; Same species or orange, although changing over a long time, there is a temporal continuity; and same planet, universe, although all things are in a state of flux.
“Same” is a plea for a Platonic Ideal.
As I said, above, each of us replaces every molecule in our body over a period of around ten years; as we breath we take in oxygen and remove carbon; we piss and deficate, transforming food. Even the Ship when not having items replaced is moving in time/space, and its mass changes with the seasons.
All is flux, nothing is the same eventually.

There is no “solution” - it’s not that sort of problem.
The greeks already knew the answer.
This is about never crossing the same river.

There is no one answer because there is no explicitly stated question. The answer depends on how the question is formulated.

The Greeks had multiple answers because each one was answering a different question.

with love,
sanjay

Well, people seem to be hitting all around it. So let me explain what I have been calling “The Solution” that no doubt would have changed the world drastically if had been recorded and taught 2000 years ago or any time since.

The question is, “Is the ship the same ship?”

The question is simply asking for a conceptual definition for the word “same”.

Every truth is contingent upon a given ontology. An ontology is merely a list of defined concepts along with their consequential logic so as to provide a model or foundational “under-standing” of reality. There can be many ontologies that are equally accurate in representing reality. And when different ontologies use the same words, one has to be careful to note which ontology is being utilized. Religious scriptures don’t use the same ontology as material science. They use similar words, but the words refer to different concepts.

A word is merely a name or label for a concept for sake of communication. And a definition is the communication of the concept associated with its word. Void of a definition, confusion and misunderstandings are invited. If the Bible had come with a lexicon appended, the entire world would be drastically different by now.

So when someone uses the word “same”, the question arises as to what the relevant concept is. Did he mean “same in precise form”, “same in general form”, same in function, same in ownership, same in consequence, or what?

It is not a question of right or wrong, or even “same” or “different”, but an incomplete question that can’t be answered until it is completed with a definition for what is meant by “same”.

So the Answer is “It is a matter of choice”.
And The Solution is to complete the question so as to reduce the choices.

It is exactly the same as having simultaneous equations with too few variables known for an answer to be resolved. Except in mathematics when that occurs, they don’t argue for thousands of years as to what “the answer” must be, but rather simply state that we can’t know because there is an incomplete set of known variables. If they had not been willing to make that one statement, Science would never have gotten off the ground. The religions have actually only been fighting over words and who gets the right to dictate them.

Throughout history the conflation of ontologies has been far more relevant than how right or wrong anyone has been. People argue over who is right or wrong, what exists or doesn’t, when the real question was simply one of which ontologies are being referenced, “what concepts are being intended by the words”. And the silly thing is that it goes on for literally thousands of years, and is still going on. And you call humanity an intelligent species??

And that leads to my second question.

All paradoxes, and really all understandings, can be resolved pretty quickly after communicating the concepts, precisely defining the words. And that isn’t actually a new idea, although it does seem that the invention of the dictionary is fairly new. So why isn’t the resolve to the many paradoxical questions involving incomplete communication of the concepts recorded as such. Why continue the arguing, confusion, and the consequential warring? Are the best and brightest that humanity has to offer really that stupid? Or is something else going on?

There are two very relevant distinctions between common concepts for the word “God”. One emphasizes the power to destroy and the other emphasizes the power to create or build. One promotes doubt, chaos, confusion, hatred, and wars. The other promotes confidence, order, certainty, love, and peace. One is Judist, used on Egypt and Rome. And the other is Christian, used to stop the first. In Hinduism these are Shiva and Vishnu, the “Destroyer” and the “Savior”. And it makes me wonder just what Babylon had going for it to inspire its utter destruction and what was in the Library at Alexandria to inspire Constantine-Catholicism to utterly destroy it as well.

Note that Doubt, Nihilism, The Anti-Christ, the Incompleteness Theorem, Relativity, Quantum Physics, the weakness of Logic, Subjective Reality, Language manipulation and Wars were all being promoted at the same time and largely by the same people. And all of that was happening at the predicted thousand years after the establishment of Christianity.

So what is really going on? Random occurrence? Not bloody likely.

Destruction occurs through subtle confusion, “the devil is in the details”. Destruction requires confusion and blindness; unanswered questions, “darkness”. And once a great deal of darkness, destruction, chaos, and blindness has been established, there is little choice but to use blind faith (aka “blind confidence”) to manipulate peace and a new order wherein sight can be at least partially restored.

He who reigns in darkness rules the world.” But if a degree of darkness is not maintained, one loses the ability to subtly manipulate both chaos and order and thus loses the ability to rule the world. What happens when no one can rule the world? What if they just don’t manipulate?

The theory is that if no one rules the world, wars break out until someone does rule the world once again. Anarchy leads to eventual domination, chaos leads to eventual order, “Order rises from Chaos”… well… to a degree.

But is that theory necessarily true? Is the maintaining of all of the confusion really necessary? If they can’t even figure out if the ship is the same, how could they possibly be confident that the world must be constantly held in darkness and manipulated?

I think that theory is much like the Theory of Thermodynamics (second law), a commonality, not a necessity… a Rule of Thumb, not a Law of Nature (nor “of God”).

James,

I must accept that your speed of reading and writing english is exceptional.

With love,
sanjay

You could use the same analogy for a wooden porch or deck. At the moment when construction is complete you have a complete and finished object that has many component parts.

As the object is used and ages some of those components need to be replaced, so that the object itself can still perform at a functionally high standard. When you have your air filter or brakes changed on your car is a good example.

The solution to the paradox is that the identity of the object is always changing, from its initial creation to its eventual decay.

Change, always change. But does that change effect the identity of the object? Does replacement of component parts alter the way the object is perceived?

When the Parthenon is finally restored it is still going to be the Parthenon, correct? It most definitely is not the original Parthenon, yet it is still the Parthenon, because there is not another one that exists. chicagotribune.com/travel/ct … otogallery

So, where is the line drawn between the original object, or the object at its peak of beauty and function, and the remnants of, and nostalgia for, the object at its peak?

Hi, and welcome. The original identity of the Parthenon may still be the original, but, if at the peak of it’s beauty, after innumerable changes, improvements, may no longer be recognized as such. Let’s say, restoration is ongoing indefinitely, because with aging , the decay is constantly monitored, decayed parts removed.

Now it’s conceivable, and bring in a hypothetical here, that after say, 30,000, or 100,000 or even 1,000,000 years from now, it will be so full of structural supports and changes, that the appearance of it will be drastically different.

That’s one scenario. The next scenario is, that even with so much passage of time, the changes to the Parthenon will still not prevent someone looking at it from recognizing it.

Someone, irregardless or regardless of who he might be, may or may not have a copy of the original in his possession, either as a picture, or a memory of a picture. Remember, the Parthenon is only a few thousand years old, and we are talking about tens, or maybe even hundreds of thousands to a million years of time passage.

That someone visiting, may know something of the Parthenon, or not, even if, by this time he can remember, or not, may he be a fully human, or a robot, is again questionable.

If he knew something about it and recognized the original, and someone else were to come up to him and ask which is the real Parthenon, the picture of the original, (and remember by this time, there is only a picture of the original)or the one he is viewing at that far removed time, what could he answer? The picture? or, what he is seeing at that far removed time?

What if the Parthenon could be kept to look like , at that time, just like the picture of the original? What would it be it’s identity? The picture of the original, or the one he is viewing then a long time hence?

He might say that the picture is the same as the one standing reconstructed? But here comes the problem. The picture and the model , or the original can never be exactly the same, because in the act of reproducing the original, however perfect it is, it will loose something of it’s originality, even if it is a digital copy. Why?

Because, the mechanics involved in the reproduction will also suffer process decay, and even if the person looking for the identity (of the building) will not loose considerable clarity of what he sees, before him, his act of differentiating will create a difference. (The very act of differentiating or comparing will create the difference)

If you are seeking identity, first of all, you differentiate one thing from another, in this case the so called original’s picture, and the presently perceived structure.

But the next question is, how can a picture, or a remote representation of the original be used as the model or form , from which to conclude, that that was in fact the original? Because it is only a re-presentation.

The only thing that can be said is that the model is missing because only the picture of it remains. So the form degrades alongside with the picture and cannot be used as a basis of forming identity.Original identity is lost in the formal sense, and only pictures or representations of it can be said to be used as comparable.

I guess this is why architectural relics are so important, they appear to buttress and identify what has been lost. But this loss, is immeasurable, because of all the uncertainties which go along with the process of identification.

I hope i helped.

Ok, so if the ship has a captain [and no-one else], would it be the same without him, could he get onto a sister ship, paint a new name on the side and it would be or become his new ship of that ilk?

As soon as we add another party, the ship will only ever be ‘the ship’. If it has no such party then why couldn’t we just call it ‘a bunch of bits of painted iron’? And if the iron came from the same mine, why not just ‘iron’?

It appears instead that there is no ship! :mrgreen:

Identity.

Lys has been banned and won’t be continuing in this thread. She’s been warned in the past that being a mouthpiece for a banned member gets you the same ban as that member, and still went ahead reposting Satyr prolifically (in other threads). I think we’re all smart enough to draw the logical consequences of doing that for someone permabanned.

Lev and Phyllo were both right. There is no solution, though there are many ways to answer the question. There isn’t supposed to be any one solution. The problem is a way of inviting people to consider how we think about identity and the ways in which we define and identify things.

There is a solution; there is no ship of Theseus! [i.e. To begin with]

All we have done is give a name or title to a bunch of wood & nails, or steel and rivets. replace each of them over time, and you still have a bunch of wood or steel and rivets.

Nothing has identity [perhaps except as what it is, but then we eventually get down to the building block which in turn become blurred in quantum mechanics etc, indeed it is as if ‘god’ don’t like labels/identity].

It doesn’t mean anything to be called ‘Theseus’, not in real terms.

Guys, the “solution” is simple and very easily proven.

Things are identified by conceptual definitions. We say that a car is “Bill’s car” merely because we accept the concept of ownership based upon intuitive standards involving who originally purchased it, who built it, who was last seen in it, or whatever. Those definitions are not always consistent and thus arguments break out, but there is always a concept definition being used in every case by every person. And generally those concepts are not very precise, but very loose so as to keep them more useful.

How do you know that it is the same ship? You know that it is the same ship because you saw no rationale in thinking of it as a different ship. It is that simple.

How things are identified in words and concepts is not an empirical, physical concern (an issue of what is “really, physically true”), but merely a mental choice of useful, rational concepts/forms/orders/sequences. The physics itself has nothing to do with the thing called “ship”. The universe has no idea what a ship is in the first place. It is a ship only because “a ship” is how you chose to identify it. And it is the same ship only because you chose to identify it as “the same ship”.

Right.

The solution is that nothing truly has identity then…

Where we call the ship the ‘Ship of Theseus’ philosophically we aren’t saying anything about the object/collection of. So when we change parts and eventually everything of the ship, then it is no more or less of ‘the Ship of Theseus’ because it wasn’t truly that to begin with.
However that it is ‘a ship’ is a universal [to all objects which can float] and has utility when it is floating in the water, it’s only when we give it an identity that there is a problem.

Hmm, but function has identity? So surely an emotion [suitably for water lol] and an emotional relationship has identity in that they to are funtions. Then the object of said emotion has identity!

The the ‘Ship of Theseus’ is the ‘Ship of Theseus’ if that’s how we feel about it, but the ship itself is not the ‘Ship of Theseus’ because you can change all of its parts of even build a new version and have the same emotion perhaps,

There i was thinking i had this old one all worked out :laughing:

Whether you identify that cluster of stuff “a ship” or “The Ship of Theseus” is irrelevant to the fact that it is you doing the identifying for your own purposes. Physical reality has nothing to do with it one way or another.

It is the same ship. It is being valued in precisely the same way, thus it responds to its environment in precisely the same way. Its components are equal to each other as this A is equal to this A, and this you to this you.

The same question and answer can be applied to a human or any living body. Both the context and the components change - but the Idea of it remains. The executed functionality of the ship, the glue between its abstract existence in the minds of the men and its becoming along with the men and the sea, this is also what drives us to do what we do, and for all intents and purpose defines us.

That is to say that when Theseus decides to use a plank from the ship to pierce a monsters eye, it is no longer the same ship.

Yes, the “paradox” is a misunderstanding reflecting a simplistic thought process and a lack of philosophizing power. Take any threshold or scope of existence or material and you can move just below that level to find more continuous change and mutation, this even holds true at the atomic level with quantum processes and sub-particles “popping in and out of existence”, minute fluctuations of quantity and energy. Certainly too from any level on upward this can be demonstrated without any difficulty.

Things are not somehow unreal or less real or bear less self-identity merely because they reflects more minute and lower-level dependency and flux of component parts. This paradox view is simply a mistaken view of what “real” means, an attempt to define real-ness as “stasis and perfect unchanging”, in other words what one might call a “will to nihilism” or similar if they were so inclined to phrase it that way. I would rather phrase it as a marked confusion of language, not to mention an inability to think things through to their proper and logical conclusions and ends. In this way the error also reflects a fundamentally stunted psyche. But the good news is that psyches can and do change, there is always hope for growth and new breakthroughs of truth.

I take your point and it doesn’t contradict the idea that there is no ship of Theseus.

But people have identities because as objects in our minds eye when observed, they also have personality based identity [even though it’s accuracy is limited]. A ship can have a personality identity in the same way as we give other people and things including ourselves identity. The personality of the ship also relates to its function [same as ours as humans], and the function is more than the idea in our minds, it is real. We could equally say that human identity is real, due to it’s functionality. Then that physically both the ship and the human person are the same in that identity is a metaphysical attachment to function in the world. Both we and the ship are just a bunch of stuff.

If we take the god helmet experiment, where our sense of self is literally rotated as the magnets on the helmet rotates. Then once that is rotated to a perceived external position, the idea of other self-hood and person-hood is established. We do a similar thing with teddy bears as children and cars, ships and what have you as adults. That projection also relates to functions, patterns and objects in the world, along with derivative information from the given world objects and comparatives.
there are aspects which are made up and aspects which are not, and so there is the ship of Theseus. an identical twin ship would be the same except that they would relate to different captains, were built perhaps by different hands or at least a different time. the story of a thing plays a part in that it has functions too. the act becomes real, and Theseus is born.

Fixed Cross

Generally agree.

But the ship Argos had many such encounters in a manner, and it’s identity is a legendary ship because of that.

Good point. I concede that even in my scenario it would still be the same ship.
So the ‘self-valuing’ of this ship is pretty strong.
See how experience strengthens a being. The being includes more aspects.