skepticism

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

I see many members of ILP being skeptical of medicine,
science, philosophy, history and they should be, but
their skepticism is very limited…

for example, several members here believe in radical right wing
theories that are promogulated over the internet and on Faux
News… why aren’t they just as skeptical about these conspiracy
theories as they are about the government and vaccines?

they are very skepticism over some things and have no
skepticism over a great many other things…

they show a great deal of skepticism over vaccines and yet
show no awareness of the great important vaccines have
had over the centuries… vaccines over the last two hundred
years have saved billions of lives…

here is a list of vaccines that have saved countless lives…

Polio
tetanus
flu (influenza)
hepatitis b
hep A
Rubella
HIB
Measles
Whooping cough (pertusis)
Pneumococcal disease
Rotavirus
Mumps
chickenpox
Diphtheria

these diseases have been either greatly curtailed or eliminated
all together…

I lost my hearing due to the fact there wasn’t a Rubella vaccine
at the time… I lost my hearing…

why certain skepticism about certain things?
If you are going to be skeptical, be skeptical about
EVERYTHING, not just vaccines or science, but
everything…at least be skeptical in the right way…

as the day goes on, I shall be working on this theme…

Kropotkin

2

now the next theme is this idea of
“if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail”

the radical right holds anti-vaccine theories… and account for
everything in term of the vaccines… for example, one suggested
that my recent injury may be due to my taking the vaccine…
“if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail”

If I said, I just got the vaccine and my ankle tore, these
people, because they don’t have any other tool, will
assume, yes, it is because of the vaccine, but that
assumes a blank slate in every other area… it doesn’t
take into account my history of sports, my age, my
job…my medical history… if all you hold true is
vaccines causes every ill, then you completely miss
many possible reasons for that illness…

I played sports for decades, my job requires me to stand on my
feet for hours on end, for days on end, and I walk between
7000 ft a day and 12,000 ft a day… I am 63… I can easily explain
my torn ankle as being from wear and tear of a life playing sports…
but for the conspiracy crowd, there is but one explanation,
and that is the vaccine… they have but one hammer and so
everything looks like a nail…there is no linkage between
my torn ankle muscle and the vaccine… but there is plenty
of linkage between the events in my life and the torn
muscle… I can make a far better case for my torn ankle
muscle being from the wear and tear of life and not
from any vaccine…but the conspiracy crowd can’t
even see my medical history or my past of playing sports
or my age or my job as being a factor in my torn ankle…
it has to be the vaccine… at least according to them…
there is no skepticism involved in their pet theories…
and that is the part that I wonder about…

why so skeptical about some stuff and not skeptical about other
things?

skepticism is an ‘‘all of it or none of it’’ type of thing…
you can’t practice limited skepticism… either everything
become part of one’s skepticism or nothing is…

Kropotkin

3

now I have been attacked around here for not being
skeptical enough about the government…
I find that charge very interesting, as I am a former anarchist…
I was challenging government before most of you were born…
and I am being attacked because I do believe in the vaccine
and the mask mandate… and I do believe in them…
but Kropotkin, why not the skepticism about the vaccine
and the mask mandate?

because I know history and I understand the value of
thinking about things… I can see that the needs of
the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one…
and for the good of the many, I will wear a mask…
not because the government told me to, but it makes
sense to protect my health and the health of others…
and because I don’t use the vaccine as a hammer,
I can see other forces at work besides the
government “taking” our rights away… I will happily wear the mask
and get the vaccine even if the government didn’t make us because
I can see the value of doing so… surprisingly enough, it isn’t all
about me…and that is where the conspiracy crowd gets it wrong…
they make everything about them and their needs and wants…

“I won’t wear a mask because it takes my freedom away and I
won’t take the vaccine because it takes away my freedom”

there is a world outside of our own needs, wants and desires…
I know anti-vaxxers will find it hard to believe, but there
are other people in the world… and we must, must
them into account in our understanding of the world…
we live in a civilization, a society, a state…
and we must take that into account in every decision
we make… it isn’t always just about me and my own personal
needs and wants… part of the problem is that most people hold
true as the only aspect of society is to seek one’s own “liberty
and freedom” as said in the declaration of independence…

we are more than people seeking our own happiness, we
cannot find our own happiness in just seeking our own needs,
wants and desires outside of or independent of other people…

I am a part of society, the civilization, the state
and I must act that way… and so I partake in the state,
the society, the civilization by wearing the mask and getting
the vaccine… for I am part of the state… like it or not…
in part, this very point is why I left anarchism… I am part of
the state, the society and I must take them into account in
every decision I make… I am not alone in a society, the state,
the civilization although you wouldn’t know it from anti-vaxxers…
they act as if they are independent, separate from the state,
the society… they are not… and any argument they make
must take into account the state and the society…
and they do not, and thus their failure…
and why they will continue to fail… because anti-vaxxers
and conspiracy theorists seem to think they are alone,
separate, apart from the state, the society… and they are not…

they are just as much part of the state and society as I am…
the difference being I realize it, and they don’t…

Kropotkin

4

and the next point about skepticism is, why are you being
skeptical? what is the value of being skeptical?

I hold that government is no longer about serving the people,
the state now works for big business… the United States congress
is a subsidiary of Exxon-Mobil… so for me to fight the
government makes no sense because the government,
the state no longer is an independent part of the American
society… the government, the state works for big business…
the anti-vaxxer still holds to the old fashion belief in
the “evil” of the government, and that was true, but no longer
and the conservative must join us in the 21st century in
making adjustments in what we believe in and what we must
do to “save” ourselves and America… to hold onto the “evilness”
of the government is simply a last century thing… we have moved
onto the tyranny of the corporation… the battle is about
economics, not governmental practices… and anyone shouting
about the government is behind the times…

that is why we must engage in economic idea’s like Marxism
and capitalism… because that is where we are, not in a political
deadlock but an economic one…and democracy is dead until we
can save it from the clutches of big business…

be skeptical but be skeptical about the right things, not just
the “evil” aspect of government…

Kropotkin

5

To be skeptical of something means to doubt that something; and to doubt something means to not believe that something. With that in mind, what you’re saying is “Since these people do not believe in medicine, science, philosophy, history and so on, it logically follows that they should not believe in anything which includes conspiracy theories”. But exactly how does that follow? Why should someone refuse to hold any belief merely because they refuse to hold some beliefs?

But perhaps what you’re trying to say (rather clumsily) is that these people are very careful when it comes to examining the veracity of beliefs that are promoted by mainstream media but very careless when it comes to examining the veracity of beliefs promoted by alternative media. But is that really true? I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the case for many and even most of them but is it really true for everyone? And how do you even know it to be the case?

What makes you think they lack this awareness?

6

part of the failure of the radical right wing, is its
inability to widen out their viewpoint… in other words,
the average right winger, is unable to see things in
their proper context… take my ankle for example…

I say, I took the vaccine and my ankle muscle tore…
that particular viewpoint fails because it isolates,
separate what should be seen as whole… in other words,
I should see ankle as part of a whole, not as an isolated unit…

to see why the muscle tore, I need to view my ankle as
part of my own personal history, the events I engage with,
to see my past in terms of jobs, sports, activities like
I spent two separate weeks hiking in the Sierra’s…
I spent one week hiking in Kings Cayon, about 70 miles
and another week hiking in Sequia national part, again
about 65 miles… that is part of my own personal wear and tear
on my foot… those events alone won’t cause my ankle tear but
they do play a role in that tear…
and I must take it into account if I am to understand why
my ankle muscle tore… but anti-vaxxers and conservatives
don’t seem to take into account the past, the history of
something or the “wear and tear” of something…

to take MagJ example, to say her friend died because of the
vaccine is to isolate that event, her death, as being an isolated
one, when in fact, there are a great many things that could
have caused her death… family health, medical issues,
disease, a virus, any one of a number of issues could have caused
her death… it isn’t always about the virus or the vaccine…
be skeptical about everything including the virus and the vaccine
but also about conspiracy theories about the virus and the vaccines…

skepticism isn’t about a one-time use, it is an all the time,
effort… so, become skeptical all the time, not when it is convenient
for you…or when it matches your own biases and prejudices…
which by the way, you also should be skeptical about…
becoming aware of our biases and prejudices allows us to
escape us the thought process that allows one to think of one thing
as a hammer…

Kropotkin

7

It does not have to be due to the vaccine, as you say, but because it happened after taking the vaccine, and relatively soon after taking the vaccine, one has to wonder. I’m totally up for doing proper investigation instead of merely concluding using the simplistic logic that is “It happened after the vaccine, therefore it is caused by the vaccine.” That, however, does not mean it is not caused by the vaccine (which is something I’ve seen mainstream media claiming.)

On the other hand, the same can be said about the left and their “Everything is caused by COVID” mentality. I don’t remember you starting a thread about it.

8

K: how cute, I have my own stalker… I guess its true that you
are someone once you have your own stalker…

I find it quite interesting that your questions are
epistemology questions, questions about knowledge…
how does Kropotkin, know what he claims is the truth?
virtually all of your questions are epistemology questions…
questions about knowledge and how do we know what we know…

so you tell me, how do we establish our understanding of knowledge?
How do we ‘‘know’’ what we know? How do we ‘‘guarantee’’ that the
knowledge we have is based in fact?

Kropotkin

9

None of my questions are epistemology questions.

These, however, are epistemology questions and I have no idea why you’re asking them.

10

Re: Certificate of Vaccine IDentification, COVID
[size=85]Post by MagsJ » Sat 23 Apr, 2022 16:57[/size]

Peter Kropotkin wrote:
If all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like
a nail…think about that… if your only answer is vaccines,
then everything looks vaccine related…

Bore off Peter… you haven’t even considered a historical timeline of circumstantial evidence, and I ain’t got the inclination for that painful kinda discussion - plus the main issue was with the lack of an ingredients list/the harmful toxicity of those (unknown) ingredients, and not with the vaccines themselves.

You have never once replied to that ^^^.

I have been vaccinated against near-all you listed here… save for against the flu and covid, so you can factor that out of your unfounded-bias reply.

11

Kropotkin is claiming that a number of people on this forum who believe in vaccine conspiracy (such as MagsJ) are quite rigorous when it comes to what mainstream media says but too lenient when it comes to what alternative media says. That’s what he thinks about these people and he’s not going to tell us why. He just knows, no need to prove anything. And he also claims the same holds true for all right wingers. He constantly attacks entire groups of people but never really bothers to justify his attacks.

He’s an interesting character. He has claimed that he has no interest in engaging / interacting with other people (i.e. no interest in seeking truth through conversation) and that he does not listen to critics (because everyone is a critic and haters gonna hate.) At the same time, he claims to be an open-minded individual. He’s also claiming that he’s not making any claims but merely asking questions. Thus, when he says “Right wingers are not skeptical enough of the alternative media” he’s actually asking “Are right wingers skeptical enough of the alternative media?”. That would imply that he’s using his own version of English language and that he doesn’t really care about the kind of effect that he has on those who come in contact with his words. He has also proclaimed to be scientifically inclined even though he thinks that each person has his own truth and that truth changes with age.

12

Magnus , maybe he is covering something not easy to express in a few words.

13

K: I gotta say, you crack me up…so rigid and so literal…
everything is black and white with you…I remember being
that young once, a long time ago…the fact that you don’t
even realize your questions are epistemology questions,
questions about how we know what we know, I find, well
funny…I thank you for bringing me some amusement
during my long days of recovery…only 4 more months to go…

Kropotkin

14

K: and in the interest of full disclosure, I also hold that
JFK assassination was a conspiracy, but not RFK,
that Gandhi and MLK, were the two greatest people
of the 20th century and that UFO’s exists and
that Baseball is the greatest sport ever invented…
the greatest band of all time was the Beatles but
the greatest rock and roll band is “The Who”
while Moon is the greatest drummer of all time…
and I don’t believe in ghost…

I hope that helps you all… :sunglasses:

Kropotkin

15

Thanks Peter but vaguely like through a glass darkly.

1corintians 13:12

16

K: and yes, I did fail my “How to win friends and influence people class”,
why do you ask? :wink:

Kropotkin

17

K: I am having fun with the very earnest nature of these kids…
Man, no sense of humor of any kind from any of them…
that is in fact how I can tell they are young… everything is
so serious…

to those who think, life is a comedy, and to those
who feel, life is a tragedy…

Kropotkin

18

Why not address the point that I made instead of constantly focusing on my character? I argued that transsexuals do the very thing that you accuse right wingers of doing. What was your response? Your response was to ignore my point and focus on my character. You are steering the discussion away from relevant points towards “Who’s got a bigger dick? Kropus or Magnus?”

I am pretty sure that asking someone why they hold some specific belief is not an epistemological question. “Hey Jimmy, why do you think the Earth is round?”, for example, is NOT an epistemological question. An epistemological question would be something like “How do we know what we know?” which is a general question about knowledge and not a specific question about how some specific person arrived at some specific belief.

It is older people who tend to be serious.

19

I didn’t.

…and you still shy away from that question.

20

I’m skeptical about:
Santa Claus
Bigfoot
The Easter Bunny
God
Little Green Men from other planets
9th Grade English Teachers
Politicians
Religion
Science
Mathematicians (1=.999… (rolls eyes))
Einstein
Big Pharma
…and the entire Medical system, which I consider a bunch of ripoff Quacks!
Taxes
FBI
Commercials
CEO’s
Ford
Chevy
Police
Dr. Phil

What more do you want??