Social Perversion in Children

[rununder]

The youth of America are corrupted by degenerate parents.

Men and women of low value, who hate and despise themselves, who have nothing to show for life, no love, no zest, no passion, no value, the nihilists, tend to breed more children to follow in their failed footsteps. Does this apply to you personally or to somebody you know? Is this a part of your own family? Ask yourself this question and become prepared to wake up to your own potential failings.

Let’s take a man and woman respectively.

A postmodern man is a complete failure. So what does he want for his son? He wants his son to become captain of the high school football team. He wants “the best” for his son. He doesn’t want his son to become a wimpy nerd, or complete loser, like he was. He wants “better”. This is the male pride in action. So the father pushes his sons into sports, egging them on to do things they don’t want to do necessarily. You can see this in American “sports culture”, baseball, football, basketball. A bunch of fucking losers who don’t belong there necessarily, or don’t even want to be there to begin with. Instead you have a degenerate father pushing his failure onto his child.

This is the beginning of “expectations” and idealisms. These failed ideals are passed on from father to son, parent to child.

It doesn’t end here. We’re just beginning.

Let’s move onto the degenerate mother. The mother is old, her beauty faded, her sexual partners many in life. She’s a jaded woman, typical of the average American woman. She’s spread her love around, had several sexual partners. She was a fool as a young woman. She believed in the lies of men claiming they “loved her”. So she had her heart broken several times. Did she learn from this? No, instead she blames men in general, never herself, for falling for the lies. She sold her sex cheaply. And so she will end her life cheaply. But she’s built up her resentment. She lands a male, eventually, let’s call him “Bob”. Bob is the father we used in the example above, the loser who wants his loser son to become captain of the football team. And this degenerate mother is named Sally.

Sally, after living a life of failure after failure, she has 2 sons and 2 daughters. With her sons, she wants to “change” them. She wants to raise her sons to “respect women”, since she herself was never respected by men. She wants to apply her own ideals and inadequacies onto her sons, the same way Bob does. She wants to create her “ideal man” through her son. So not only does Bob apply his own failures to his sons. Sally does too. Sally wants her son to “never lie” to women, to be honest and committed, to not betray a woman’s love, as she was betrayed several times.

Sally had to “settle” for Bob, two peas in a loser pod.

Next we move onto Bob and Sally’s daughters. Again, we have Bob. Bob is sexually frustrated with Sally. He feels duped, like he got the short end of the stick. Because even though he feels as though he wasn’t Sally’s “first choice”, neither was Sally his first choice. You see, the “settling down” works both ways. Bob and Sally both feel somewhat resentful to each other. Their marriage is mostly a sham, put on as a show. They go to church. They married there. They fear getting a divorce, because their pastor or priest tells them not to. The priest tells them to “continue on” and “endure” the sham. They’re both unhappy.

So we move onto the daughters. Bob wants to raise his daughters “better” than Sally ended up. Bob also loves his daughters much more than he loves Sally. He prefers them, to her. He sees more of himself inside his daughters. Sally is jealous. Because her daughters are younger, therefore more beautiful. She fears losing what remains of her mediocre looks. Bob sometimes gets “too close” to his daughters, prefers them a little too much. Sally doesn’t like this, doesn’t like how she has to compete against her own daughters for a loser’s pathetic affections. Sally thought, falsely, that by settling down with this loser Bob, that she could relax and wouldn’t have to worry about competition from other women. She was wrong.

So the daughters naturally like their father more than their mother. They don’t understand each other, on some levels. They don’t look deeper, and realize, Bob is sexually attracted to his daughters more than he is with Sally. Mother and daughters are in competition.

Just as Sally wants to turn her sons into an “ideal man”, a man who she never ended up with, Bob also wants to turn his daughters into an “ideal woman”, who he never ended up with as well. So Bob and Sally both are waging a war, of ideas, against their own children. Bob wants to raise his daughters to be his “first choice” type of woman. Sally wants to raise her sons to be her “first choice” type of man.

I’ll tell you right now, this is doomed to fail.

How many American children are broken and made slaves to these false ideals??? Too many, look around you. The average, mundane, mediocre, normal family is comprised with a lot of this “conditional” love. Expectations, ideals, conditions. All of them short lived. Because the average parent or child is ignorant, and blissfully ignorant, of deeper familial and natural insights.

Ignorant of Natural Law, universal laws which control, shape, determine everything. Unwise, ignorant, foolish to these forces and powers they’ll never even scrape the comprehension of.

So Bob and Sally live “normal” lives, unhappy, built on pretense and false hopes and false ideals.

A whole system of subconscious and unconscious expectations. Premises, logical premises, that an adept philosopher can uncover if he so desires to look deeper into human nature, below the surface.

There is a big problem lurking here, underneath the mainstream consciousness of postmodernity. Whole systems of false expectations, failed hopes, and impossible dreams. Now this bubble, like an economic bubble, like the burst housing market, once popped, has much much further reaching consequences than a minor economic recession.

I’m talking about a cultural recession, and a full blown cultural depression. Because once all these failed, impossible dreams begin collapsing on themselves, and the system and society of lies crumble down, then no amount of economic prosperity can bring a society back from this damnation. Damn nation. Condemned to fail. Set to fall.

There is no cultural strength nor cultural power here. This is what America needs most of all, a culture. A new type of strength.

[uglypeoplefucking]

You could make the OP into a good philosophical novel.

@rununder

So Bob and Sally live “normal” lives, unhappy, built on pretense and false hopes and false ideals.

Yep. You nailed it. It’s the reality of married life for so many people, and not just in America. It’s a cultural trap that emerges everywhere. It frightens me.

There is a big problem lurking here, underneath the mainstream consciousness of postmodernity. Whole systems of false expectations, failed hopes, and impossible dreams. Now this bubble, like an economic bubble, like the burst housing market, once popped, has much much further reaching consequences than a minor economic recession.

I’m talking about a cultural recession, and a full blown cultural depression. Because once all these failed, impossible dreams begin collapsing on themselves, and the system and society of lies crumble down, then no amount of economic prosperity can bring a society back from this damnation. Damn nation. Condemned to fail. Set to fall.

This is particularly interesting, but it would require that people wake up to the failed, impossible nature of their dreams, and i think the general state of denial in which so many people live may prevent that from ever happening.

There is no cultural strength nor cultural power here. This is what America needs most of all, a culture. A new type of strength.

Well, it’s the culture that sets up the ideals that we chase, like carrots and sticks: marriage, children, dream job, low interest mortgage, etc - right on down the line. What you seem to want is to set up a new culture with alternate ideals for people to pursue, which is fine, but you haven’t really proposed what any of those other ideals might be. After all, it’s fully possible that the next cultural renaissance, strong as it might initially seem, could run the same cycle of boom and bust you predict for our present one. Personally, i remain critical of the notion that it is worth chasing prefab ideals of love, happiness and success simply because our culture expects us to.

In any case, i enjoyed the OP.

[eyesinthedark]

=D>

I concur with ugly, well done.

I don’t have much to add, as my family wasn’t anything like this… my family was weird.

It reminds me of the film Happiness by Todd Solondz (a Jew) and American Beauty by Alan Ball (a homosexual). All is not well in middle America, just beneath the exterior.

Too much of the wrong kind of idealism.

[gambit_980]

@rununder

The youth of America are corrupted by degenerate parents.

Men and women of low value, who hate and despise themselves, who have nothing to show for life, no love, no zest, no passion, no value, the nihilists, tend to breed more children to follow in their failed footsteps. Does this apply to you personally or to somebody you know? Is this a part of your own family? Ask yourself this question and become prepared to wake up to your own potential failings.

Failure can only be defined by success. Without failure there is nothing to achieve. Without the realistic possibility of failure, success has no value.

How is it that we can define the world around us, in what can be thought of as a negative view, when things outside of our being have no tie to this emotional world view?

If we are the creators of our morals, why can’t failure be stepping stones, instead of prison bars?

[Stoic_Guardian]

@gambit_980

If we are the creators of our morals, why can’t failure be stepping stones, instead of prison bars?

They can, but only when people make a real effort towards self inprovement.

[George_Costanza]

The “American” culture that is currently the dominate culture is not an American culture, it is a lack of culture. A majority of people in this country are “lost”, no identifiable values, no clear vision of what they want their life to be. The denegration of “traditional” life is somewhat to blame for the lack of culture, but the lack of culture is precisely what is responsible for the denegration of traditional life.

The problem here is not marriage, children, jobs or mortgages. The problem is the mindset of the American anti-culture (AAC), as opposed to Traditional American culture (TAC). The mind set of the AAC believes that all traditional concepts are inherently bad and shallow. The AAC has torn traditional life apart and then has blamed traditional life for being the problem (the AAC is sociopathic and like any good sociopath blames the victim). The problem is the AAC mindset, not any of the concepts of traditional life. Like anything else any facet of traditional life can be good or bad depending on the people and minds involved. To shallow, unintelligent, unhappy people being married and having children can certainly feel like a trap and make them miserable. But being married and having children is to other people the best possible thing that could have ever happened to them. I submit that the outlook is determined by adherence to either AAC or TAC.

Popular culture denegrates TAC because, IMO, it is opposed to globalization, authoritarian governments and population control, which are the very things that popular culture, and those that control it, promote positive views of. AAC, lacking any true values or concept of individual independence, gleans its “values” from popular culture. So it’s no wonder AAC views TAC as bad.

[uglypeoplefucking]

So black and white - so simple. A conspiracy by liberals, the conservative answer to everything.

[uglypeoplefucking]

i like how, to conservatives, any opposition to, or serious critique of the values they prefer automatically makes one anti-value. And far be it from them to actually argue for a tradition based on its merits and failings. No, the tradition is important because it’s traditional which makes it important and so on. And traditions don’t ever naturally evolve or change with the times except as part of a concerted effort (by sociopathic liberals) to debase culture and undermine everything that is right and good - i.e. their failing and/or dying values.

[Mr_Reasonable]

Bad people are are bad, and so the things they do are bad. And good people are good and the things they do are good. Things that I like are ideal. Things that aren’t the ideal I like are bad. Bad things are dirty and bad and low. My ideals are good and clean and high. I see everything in front of me as though each things must fit into two one of two categories, one positive, and one negative. I have a complete world view. Bad things are bad. Good things are good. The things that I like are good. The things that I don’t like are bad. I like to write poetry about the things I don’t like. I may go on and on about how they are stupid or perverse, or how they are a result of some inferior thinking. Yes, bad things are inferior. Good things are superior. Yes. There are no such thing as agnostics, there are no such thing as people who are politically independent. Everyone is a part of a race and we’re all in competition. Yes. Yessssssss.

[George_Costanza]

The constant framing of every opinion as conservative or liberal is tiring. I’ll try to restate my point, and since you are so obviously more intelligent and complex than I am surely you’ll be able to understand it.

The OP makes excellent points. But the categorization of traditional concepts as inherently bad is a mistake. The point you seem to intentionally miss is that marriage, children, etc are neutral. The value judgement comes from the individuals involved. People immersed in what I called American anti-culture value nothing, have no clear picture of what’s important to them and gather their “values” from mainstream, pop culture. These are not happy or well adjusted people, like the fictional people in the OP. It’s very unlikely that unhappy, unstable people will feel fulfilled or satisfied by anything and life, and it’s even less likely that they will be capable of bonding with another person for life and so enjoy marriage or children.

[uglypeoplefucking]

@George Costanza

The constant framing of every opinion as conservative or liberal is tiring.

i agree, but it’s not a pitfall that can be avoided simply by making up new acronyms.

I’ll try to restate my point, and since you are so obviously more intelligent and complex than I am surely you’ll be able to understand it.

Oh i get it, that’s sarcasm.

The OP makes excellent points. But the categorization of traditional concepts as inherently bad is a mistake. The point you seem to intentionally miss is that marriage, children, etc are neutral. The value judgement comes from the individuals involved. People immersed in what I called American anti-culture value nothing, have no clear picture of what’s important to them and gather their “values” from mainstream, pop culture. These are not happy or well adjusted people, like the fictional people in the OP. It’s very unlikely that unhappy, unstable people will feel fulfilled or satisfied by anything and life, and it’s even less likely that they will be capable of bonding with another person for life and so enjoy marriage or children.

First, that’s not really what you said in your previous post (or at least it’s not everything you said in your previous post), and second, it carries the implication that anyone who is unhappy with marriage and traditional family life must necessarily have been maladjusted and unhappy in the first place - which not only isnt true, but also totally overlooks the failings and shortcomings of the traditional mom/dad/kids/car/pets/mortgage family diagram (a diagram sold to us relentlessly by mainstream pop culture, incidentally), as well as the role said failings play in creating situations akin to those fictionalized in the OP.

[George_Costanza]

@uglypeoplefucking

First, that’s not really what you said in your previous post (or at least it’s not everything you said in your previous post), and second, it carries the implication that anyone who is unhappy with marriage and traditional family life must necessarily have been maladjusted and unhappy in the first place - which not only isnt true, but also totally overlooks the failings and shortcomings of the traditional mom/dad/kids/car/pets/mortgage family diagram (a diagram sold to us relentlessly by mainstream pop culture, incidentally), as well as the role said failings play in creating situations akin to those fictionalized in the OP.

Certainly not everyone who is unhappy with marriage is maladjusted. But the anti-culture that currently exists in America tends to create, on a large scale, maladjusted people. It then guides those same people into traditional lives (marriage, kids, mortgage, etc). When these maladjusted people cannot function in the traditional life style the anti-culture places the blame on the traditions instea of its creation of maladjusted people.

As a practical matter it seems that a large majority of well adjusted are quite happy and live fulfilling lives in the traditional way. This isn’t meant to imply that these things are perfect, we certainly don’t need the state or religious institutions to condone who people spend their life with. We definitely should strive to do away with mortgages. In my experience while not all the married with children people I know are happy and feel fulfilled (and in fact the ones who aren’t are unhappy, maladjusted people to begin with), most of them are. In contrast to this every person I know who is alone and has no children and is beyond a certain age is deeply unhappy. The traditions aren’t good because they inherently just good, they are good because they are beneficial (with the exception of mortgages, car payments, etc, which IMO are not traditional and are a product of the anti-culture which condones debt as a way of life). Marriage, not in the legal sense, but in the sense of choosing a person to bond with for life, can be an incredible thing which strengthens both of the people involved, not because its a tradition, but because that is usually the result when two people who are a good match willingly choose to dedicate their lives to each other, and not just because tradition says so.

So my implication is not that tradition for the sake of tradition is a positive thing. You’re right, mainstream culture sells the tradition, but it sells it to people who have no other sense of how to live life. They have no values (and values can be anything, traditional or otherwise), and lack of values leaves people just floating around guided by the state as to what’s best, but we seem to be coming to the close of the states valuation of traditional life.

[Mark090480]

Seems to me that most of the post is based on conjecture.

Men and women of low value, who hate and despise themselves, who have nothing to show for life, no love, no zest, no passion, no value, the nihilists, tend to breed more children to follow in their failed footsteps.

I can’t say from a US point of view, in Europe this happens too. There has been created a huge chasm in life due to the psychological demands and deficiencies created via the media. Companies spend huge sums trying to expose and or create peoples’ deficiencies in order to make people happy, which can be done via their product. It is this artificial and superficial happiness, which I believe leads to “[people] …who hate and despise themselves, no love, no zest, no passion, no value”

There is also a huge mental block in Europe for people to do anything, be creative, find jobs and show initiative. This is largely due to the fact that most people are aghast by life and want the government to take responsibilty. It wouldn’t even cross their minds that they can better themselves via their own power, i.e. via self-teaching – No one in Europe can learn without a teacher. Creating their own values and meaning is impossible, hence the nihilist.

[George_Costanza]

@Mark090480

Seems to me that most of the post is based on conjecture.

Men and women of low value, who hate and despise themselves, who have nothing to show for life, no love, no zest, no passion, no value, the nihilists, tend to breed more children to follow in their failed footsteps.

I can’t say from a US point of view, in Europe this happens too. There has been created a huge chasm in life due to the psychological demands and deficiencies created via the media. Companies spend huge sums trying to expose and or create peoples’ deficiencies in order to make people happy, which can be done via their product. It is this artificial and superficial happiness, which I believe leads to “[people] …who hate and despise themselves, no love, no zest, no passion, no value”

There is also a huge mental block in Europe for people to do anything, be creative, find jobs and show initiative. This is largely due to the fact that most people are aghast by life and want the government to take responsibilty. It wouldn’t even cross their minds that they can better themselves via their own power, i.e. via self-teaching – No one in Europe can learn without a teacher. Creating their own values and meaning is impossible, hence the nihilist.

I think that is similar to my sentiment on this topic.

[uglypeoplefucking]

@George Costanza

Certainly not everyone who is unhappy with marriage is maladjusted. But the anti-culture that currently exists in America tends to create, on a large scale, maladjusted people. It then guides those same people into traditional lives (marriage, kids, mortgage, etc). When these maladjusted people cannot function in the traditional life style the anti-culture places the blame on the traditions instea of its creation of maladjusted people.

As a practical matter it seems that a large majority of well adjusted are quite happy and live fulfilling lives in the traditional way. This isn’t meant to imply that these things are perfect, we certainly don’t need the state or religious institutions to condone who people spend their life with. We definitely should strive to do away with mortgages. In my experience while not all the married with children people I know are happy and feel fulfilled (and in fact the ones who aren’t are unhappy, maladjusted people to begin with), most of them are. In contrast to this every person I know who is alone and has no children and is beyond a certain age is deeply unhappy. The traditions aren’t good because they inherently just good, they are good because they are beneficial (with the exception of mortgages, car payments, etc, which IMO are not traditional and are a product of the anti-culture which condones debt as a way of life). Marriage, not in the legal sense, but in the sense of choosing a person to bond with for life, can be an incredible thing which strengthens both of the people involved, not because its a tradition, but because that is usually the result when two people who are a good match willingly choose to dedicate their lives to each other, and not just because tradition says so.

So my implication is not that tradition for the sake of tradition is a positive thing. You’re right, mainstream culture sells the tradition, but it sells it to people who have no other sense of how to live life. They have no values (and values can be anything, traditional or otherwise), and lack of values leaves people just floating around guided by the state as to what’s best, but we seem to be coming to the close of the states valuation of traditional life.

More generally speaking, i can agree with a lot of this, but you’re still scapegoating a distinct set of bad guys (or at least a culture/anti-culture created by a distinct set of bad guys) for the failings of traditional institutions. It’s not as simple as all the happy, well-adjusted people doing well with marriage and children, while all the unhappy, maladjusted people either fail at it or live their lives unhappily without it. The institutions do play a role in their own failure. It’s not just about good culture vs. bad culture in the struggle for America’s soul - which seems to be how you are portraying it.

[George_Costanza]

@uglypeoplefucking

More generally speaking, i can agree with a lot of this, but you’re still scapegoating a distinct set of bad guys (or at least a culture/anti-culture created by a distinct set of bad guys) for the failings of traditional institutions.

I suppose that’s because I don’t really see any intrinsic failings of the traditional institutions of marriage and children. Please tell me what you believe they are and how they are intrinsic to the institution and not a product of the people involved.

It’s not as simple as all the happy, well-adjusted people doing well with marriage and children, while all the unhappy, maladjusted people either fail at it or live their lives unhappily without it.

I’m sure that’s true, but I don’t see any evidence of that in real life. Certainly people have made mistakes and married the wrong person or had children at a unfortunate time in their life, but I see that as a bad decision, not a flaw in the concept itself. I believe in different circumstances these same people would be happy with marriage and children. I just have trouble seeing an alternative that’s positive, ie one that doesn’t end up with everyone being alone.

I think I failed to state that I believe the OP to be a model of anti-culture posing as traditional culture.

[James_S_Saint]

@George Costanza

The “American” culture that is currently the dominate culture is not an American culture, it is a lack of culture. A majority of people in this country are “lost”, no identifiable values, no clear vision of what they want their life to be. The denegration of “traditional” life is somewhat to blame for the lack of culture, but the lack of culture is precisely what is responsible for the denegration of traditional life.

The problem here is not marriage, children, jobs or mortgages. The problem is the mindset of the American anti-culture (AAC), as opposed to Traditional American culture (TAC). The mind set of the AAC believes that all traditional concepts are inherently bad and shallow. The AAC has torn traditional life apart and then has blamed traditional life for being the problem (the AAC is sociopathic and like any good sociopath blames the victim). The problem is the AAC mindset, not any of the concepts of traditional life. Like anything else any facet of traditional life can be good or bad depending on the people and minds involved. To shallow, unintelligent, unhappy people being married and having children can certainly feel like a trap and make them miserable. But being married and having children is to other people the best possible thing that could have ever happened to them. I submit that the outlook is determined by adherence to either AAC or TAC.

Popular culture denegrates TAC because, IMO, it is opposed to globalization, authoritarian governments and population control, which are the very things that popular culture, and those that control it, promote positive views of. AAC, lacking any true values or concept of individual independence, gleans its “values” from popular culture. So it’s no wonder AAC views TAC as bad.

There are a lot more cause and effect relationships going on than implied by that, but in general,
you nailed it.

[uglypeoplefucking]

@George Costanza

I suppose that’s because I don’t really see any intrinsic failings of the traditional institutions of marriage and children. Please tell me what you believe they are and how they are intrinsic to the institution and not a product of the people involved.

i don’t know if they are intrinsic or not, i guess that would depend what definition of marriage you are working with - or they may just be flaws in the plan that have emerged with time - like how it is expected to be one man and one woman, sexually monogamous for the duration of their lives. Now i don’t deny that formula works quite well for some people, but the practical reality of marriage is that it fails about half the time, because it doesn’t work for lots of other people. And that’s not the fault of the people for whom marriage fails, nor is it because half the people who get married are generally maladjusted and unhappy. It’s because marriage is not a panacea, but it is sold as one, so a lot of people who shouldn’t be getting married and having children are doing so nonetheless.

It’s not as simple as all the happy, well-adjusted people doing well with marriage and children, while all the unhappy, maladjusted people either fail at it or live their lives unhappily without it.

I’m sure that’s true, but I don’t see any evidence of that in real life. Certainly people have made mistakes and married the wrong person or had children at a unfortunate time in their life, but I see that as a bad decision, not a flaw in the concept itself. I believe in different circumstances these same people would be happy with marriage and children. I just have trouble seeing an alternative that’s positive, ie one that doesn’t end up with everyone being alone.

i suppose the alternative would be simply doing what you want with your life rather than what tradition demands, and i don’t think that will end up with everyone being alone, even if by “alone” you simply mean not legally married. Plenty of people will still want to pair up and breed, but those who don’t, who are following other paths, would not be stigmatized as having no real values or as unhappy and maladjusted simply for that reason. Perhaps those sentiments make me AAC . . .

I think I failed to state that I believe the OP to be a model of anti-culture posing as traditional culture.

i’m interested in more examples of what you think constitutes anti-culture - more straightforward ones, not ones posing as something else. i also would like to know what constitutes the mainstream pop-culture that has so poisoned the anti culture folks. i do find some irony in the fact that your namesake is a character from Seinfeld, but perhaps that was your intention.

[George_Costanza]

@uglypeoplefucking

i don’t know if they are intrinsic or not, i guess that would depend what definition of marriage you are working with - or they may just be flaws in the plan that have emerged with time - like how it is expected to be one man and one woman, sexually monogamous for the duration of their lives. Now i don’t deny that formula works quite well for some people, but the practical reality of marriage is that it fails about half the time, because it doesn’t work for lots of other people. And that’s not the fault of the people for whom marriage fails, nor is it because half the people who get married are generally maladjusted and unhappy. It’s because marriage is not a panacea, but it is sold as one, so a lot of people who shouldn’t be getting married and having children are doing so nonetheless.

The definition of marriage I’m using is simply two people promising to be there for each other for their entire lives, I’m not interested in legal or religious definitions. Marriage fails a lot and I think it IS because of the people involved. They either got married without truly loving and/or knowing each other, or maybe they are terrible communicators, or maybe they are lazy and don’t want to put in the work required to have a deep, healthy relationship, or who knows what. Maybe they got married simply because of tradition, but that implies that they can’t think for themselves and to me that means maladjusted. Marriage is not a panacea. Agreed. But a deep bond with someone for a lifetime is important to human happiness, regardless of beliefs.

i suppose the alternative would be simply doing what you want with your life rather than what tradition demands, and i don’t think that will end up with everyone being alone, even if by “alone” you simply mean not legally married. Plenty of people will still want to pair up and breed, but those who don’t, who are following other paths, would not be stigmatized as having no real values or as unhappy and maladjusted simply for that reason. Perhaps those sentiments make me AAC . . .

Of course everyone should do what they want with their life. By alone I do not mean not legally married. I mean alone. If you don’t have a life long partner and children, what do you have? Friends? That’s good, and also important. But it’s not enough. I find it hard to believe that there are many people who have chosen not to have a life long partner or children and who are happy with their lives towards the end. What other paths are there that bring deep happiness and fulfillment that don’t include family? There’s a few things that many people have known throughout history about human happiness, family is one of them.

i’m interested in more examples of what you think constitutes anti-culture - more straightforward ones, not ones posing as something else. i also would like to know what constitutes the mainstream pop-culture that has so poisoned the anti culture folks. i do find some irony in the fact that your namesake is a character from Seinfeld, but perhaps that was your intention.

Seinfeld is a good example. The characters on Seinfeld are shallow, vapid, unempathetic, alone, unable to form meaningful relationships. That being said it’s a great show and George Costanza might be the best comedic character ever developed. The anti-culture is represented by lack of values. LIberals have values, conservatives have values, people of all social and political leanings have values, and so have their own culture (or sub culture), determined by thought out beliefs and opinions. Anti-culture does not have thought out values, it has pseudo-values determined by whatever the media controllers deem to be important for their own benefit. It’s about sheer materialism, one upsmanship, buying a house in “right school district”, not because you believe your children will get the best education there but because you don’t want to tell people you live in “that other” neighborhood. It’s two people working full time jobs and commuting two hours in each direction so they can get a mortgage on a house they can barely pay for in that “good” neighborhood because AAC tells them they need a 6 bedroom house and that a cheaper house that needs fixing up is somehow “bad”, and that the work required to do it is dirty and beneath them, because they deserve the best simply for being alive. Anti culture is brought to you by Snapple. The mainstream culture that is portrayed by almost all media, the one the OP told us about, IS anti culture, it’s totally dysfunctional. It is opposed to true values, because values imply judgement, and judgement is not allowed in anti culture. Anti culture is hedonistic in the most shallow way possible, it’s instant gratification like a high that wears off minutes after it began, leading to downward spiral of chasing that high, destroying any chance of a truly happy and fulfilling life. Not because it’s untraditional, but because it’s nothingness. It’s meaningless. Untraditional is fantastic if that’s what you want. Traditional is fantastic if that’s what you want. AAC is neither, it’s a black hole of meaningless nonsense that attracts lost people who simply don’t know how to be happy. It’s sad and terrible.

[uglypeoplefucking]

@George Costanza

The definition of marriage I’m using is simply two people promising to be there for each other for their entire lives, I’m not interested in legal or religious definitions. Marriage fails a lot and I think it IS because of the people involved. They either got married without truly loving and/or knowing each other, or maybe they are terrible communicators, or maybe they are lazy and don’t want to put in the work required to have a deep, healthy relationship, or who knows what. Maybe they got married simply because of tradition, but that implies that they can’t think for themselves and to me that means maladjusted. Marriage is not a panacea. Agreed. But a deep bond with someone for a lifetime is important to human happiness, regardless of beliefs.

A fair definition of marriage - pretty inclusive as such things go.

The rest is not so fair though, i think people simply find it very easy (because culture and society have made it very easy, even expedient) to get married. It’s not that they can’t think for themselves, it’s just one of those things that people feel compelled to do - compelled by culture and society. So they do what seems natural. Then they find out it’s not what they wanted, but theyre already all bound up and intertwined. Kind of like a trap. i mean you can’t in one breath promote marriage as being central to human happiness and then condemn people who try but fail at it. Of course theyre going to make an attempt if they are led to believe they can’t be happy without it.

Of course everyone should do what they want with their life. By alone I do not mean not legally married. I mean alone. If you don’t have a life long partner and children, what do you have? Friends? That’s good, and also important. But it’s not enough. I find it hard to believe that there are many people who have chosen not to have a life long partner or children and who are happy with their lives towards the end. What other paths are there that bring deep happiness and fulfillment that don’t include family? There’s a few things that many people have known throughout history about human happiness, family is one of them.

Family comes in all forms. Or at least if your definition of family is as inclusive as your definition of marriage then it does. One needn’t get married and have children to be part of a family that brings them happiness.

Seinfeld is a good example. The characters on Seinfeld are shallow, vapid, unempathetic, alone, unable to form meaningful relationships. That being said it’s a great show and George Costanza might be the best comedic character ever developed. The anti-culture is represented by lack of values. LIberals have values, conservatives have values, people of all social and political leanings have values, and so have their own culture (or sub culture), determined by thought out beliefs and opinions. Anti-culture does not have thought out values, it has pseudo-values determined by whatever the media controllers deem to be important for their own benefit. It’s about sheer materialism, one upsmanship, buying a house in “right school district”, not because you believe your children will get the best education there but because you don’t want to tell people you live in “that other” neighborhood. It’s two people working full time jobs and commuting two hours in each direction so they can get a mortgage on a house they can barely pay for in that “good” neighborhood because AAC tells them they need a 6 bedroom house and that a cheaper house that needs fixing up is somehow “bad”, and that the work required to do it is dirty and beneath them, because they deserve the best simply for being alive. Anti culture is brought to you by Snapple. The mainstream culture that is portrayed by almost all media, the one the OP told us about, IS anti culture, it’s totally dysfunctional. It is opposed to true values, because values imply judgement, and judgement is not allowed in anti culture. Anti culture is hedonistic in the most shallow way possible, it’s instant gratification like a high that wears off minutes after it began, leading to downward spiral of chasing that high, destroying any chance of a truly happy and fulfilling life. Not because it’s untraditional, but because it’s nothingness. It’s meaningless. Untraditional is fantastic if that’s what you want. Traditional is fantastic if that’s what you want. AAC is neither, it’s a black hole of meaningless nonsense that attracts lost people who simply don’t know how to be happy. It’s sad and terrible.

Yeah, George Costanza is a great comedic character - i like him almost as much as i like the baby in Family Guy.

The thing about the Seinfeld characters though is that there simply are not many people in real life who are like that. They are so exaggerated - which is what makes them so funny. So, with the Anti-culture thing you’re talking almost about a class of people that really doesn’t exist except in fiction. Granted, there are plenty of dysfunctional people in the world, so i recognize some of the phenomena you’re talking about - but most dysfunctional people have redeeming qualities about them, and many of them even hold traditional values rather than anti-culture pseudo values. The thing about having values is that it is impossible to live up to them all the time.

Incidentally, one thing that always got me thinking when i watched Seinfeld was how, like you said, we are shown these astonishingly shallow people, unable to form meaningful relationships, who are nonetheless totally bonded with one another - i was never quite sure what to make of that.