i’ve been reading a fair amount of Socrates lately and I really enjoyed some of the dialogues of Meno (maybe my favourite), Crito, Phaedo, Apology, The Symposium and Euthyphro. I didnt quite enjoy The Republic so much as it seems fairly obvious in this one that the character of Socrates has just become Plato’s mouthpiece by the end of the book (that’s just my opinion although that’s what it seems to me).
I was just wondering how many Socratic Dialogues there are and if you could you tell me their names (or as many as you can) and how “Platonic” they are in your opinion (i.e how much they sound like “early Socrates” as opposed to “The Republic Socrates”). And just out of curiousity, which of the ones you have read are your favourite?
Gadfly’s read Plato a lot. I’m only familiar with bits and pieces and the apology. A lot of critics have noticed that Socrates is Plato’s mouthpiece. Separating the two has become a major western dilemma.
there is no way socrates becomes plato’s mouthpeice at the end of the republic. how, then, would you account for paramenidies or timieas? plato is way to elusive of a writer to write that transparently, but that is a common view.
i don’t really like plato all that much. well, i perfer aristotle. although my signature is a quote from a platonic dialogue, which is different from my old signature which was an aristoliean quote. if i had to choose, i think paramenides is my favourite platonic dialogue. marshall! how can you not have read plato and say that the greeks influenced you? plato is pretty much all the greeks…
i would like to politely flame the great plato.
plato who takes passages and passages, verbal pingpong and false analogies to illustrate arguments he wishes to refute, only to arrive at a conclusion like “virtue is not knowledge”. and then the same thing all over again to establish “thus virtue cannot be taught”. and then the same thing over again to conclude that one is virtuous by means of DIVINE DISPENSATION. oh yeah! wonderful how divinity lends its hand to conclude all arguments he cannot find an agreeable conclusion for.
his is a wonderful case of straw man argument. come on dear plato. just over simplifies everything to absurdity and then refutes it. and all that in the name of socrates. sure.
Of course i’ve read a little Plato, but like you, I’m more of an Aristotle afficionado. To a certain extent it is true that Plato is all of the Greeks, but he has his faults (no appreciation of Art, the whole idea of philosopher Kings [as if the two could ever be combined]), although it is true that i need to be more familiar with his works. I now own the complete works in one volume, perhaps i should get off my butt…
was it russel who said everything is a footnote to plato? reading plato is like seeing yourself at different ages in picture – you’re like, oh yeah, that’s me. it is a recognition of arguements used by other thinks, some are extrememly more sophisticated, others have pretty much stagnated. a definite must read, if nothing else but for the dialogue ‘paramenides’
jedi, that dialogue is meant to fail to prove a point. can you guess what it is?
plato is a bore for neitzsche, a man who studied the classics, because he saw that, for the time, many of the arguements have stagnated.
Close, it was Whitehead, the guy who wrote the Principia of Mathematica along with Russell. Furthermore, he didn’t say everything is a footnote to Plato, he said that all of Western Philosophy is a footnote to Plato.
I will attempt to answer your questions to the best of my abilitiy, remember that many of the works are not obviously Plato’s. Having said that, his implied works are as follows:
Euthyphro
Apology
Crito
Phaedo
Cratylus
Theaetetus
Sophist
Statesman
Parmenides
Philebus
Symposium
Phaedrus
Alcibiades
Second Alcibiades
Hipparchus
Rival Lovers
Theages
Charmides
Laches
Lysis
Euthydemus
Protagoras
Gorgias
Meno
Greater Hippias
Lesser Hippias
Ion
Menexenus
Clitophon
Republic
Timaeus
Critias
Minos
Laws
Epinomis
Letters
On Justice
On Virtue
Demodocus
Sisyphus
Halcyon
Eryxias
Axiochus
Epigrams
How Platonic each one is, is beyond my abilities. I can however share my favorites with you…
in no particular order -
Euthyphro
Apology
Crito
Phaedo
Cratylus
Theaetetus
Symposium
Protagoras
Gorgias
Meno
Republic
Timaeus
Critias
Laws
Epinomis
Letters & Epigrams
My specialty, if I may call it that is the Meno, Republic, Phaedo, Crito, Apology, Euthyphro, and the Laws. So any questions you may have regarding these works, I would be happy to share with you what I believe or what I know contemporary scholars to believe. I am not, however, any kind of specialist in ancient philosophy.
i do believe that the 2nd half of Republic is mainly just Plato using the “character” of Socrates as a mouth piece evident in some of his rather strong views (Socrates never seems to be sure of anything, which is why he was such a good debater) and the lack of response from his companion (“yes”, “absolutely” “clearly you are right” etc). i believe its a very interesting book but i can’t say i’m too fond of it due to its absurd and hypocritical ideas that Plato voices.
I look at Plato as having his head in the clouds and looking down on the earth (what with the forms and his “republic”) whereas Socrates had his head in the clouds but his feet on the ground (he never let it go to his head so to speak). Socrates seemed like a “free spirit” who seemed to treat life as if it were a dream which is what i admire about him and anyone really.
I unfortunately have not read as many dialogues as you have but of the few i have read, Meno and Phaedo have the most interesting views (although i do not agree with Socrates theory of the soul remembering knowledge, i believe he is using logical and rational thinking/debating to ‘lead’ the boy to the same conclusion as him). Lysis, Laches, Crito and Symposium are interesting to read mainly because the “character” of Socrates really shows in them and i enjoyed reading them.
until i read more dialogues (trying to read a lot of Nietzsche at the moment) and some more opinions on how ‘Platonic’ they are i can’t really judge but of the ones i have the Republic seems to be the less Socratic in my opinion.
crafedog, with all do respect, i don’t think you can say that plato’s ideas are blantedly pranced out in the republic. like i said, if this were so then there would be no explaination for the points he raises in timeas, paramendies, and other ‘later’ dialogues.
gadfly,
word up on the russel quote, although i never liked russel’s reading of philosophy (or his followers). you might want to look over your list of plato dialogues. i can tell you right now that the second alciabias, greater hippias, on justice, on virtue, demodocus, sisyphus, are for certain not attributed to plato. scholars now universally agree on this. i know you said implied works, but now these dialogues are no longer implied to plato. f.y.i – the translation of demodocus is by my ancient philo prof! he’s more known for work on seneca, however.
not that any of this matters, unless someone wants a clear picture of plato’s thought. if that’s possible.
from what i know, Plato never finished Republic as it was such a long book that he died before he was able to fully complete it which is why some views in the book change in later chapters (for example the change of some poetry being allowed then by the end of the book all poetry being unallowed). so therefore you could argue that some of the later ideas in there cud be some of his last views and before he finished it he would have worked on other dialogues (that’s only a theory, but it seems to have some accuracy).
it’s quite a good book but i dont like what he has done to the ‘character’ of Socrates by the end of the book. the views do not seem to be his as he was always striving for knowledge as he deemed this to be most important for the soul etc. i think its quite rare if he ever mentions anything about creating a better society similar to some of the views voiced in Republic in some of the other dialogues (although i could easily be wrong). Socrates always seemed more interested in knowledge and wisdom then creating a better society it seemed to me, but Plato (who didnt do very well in Politics at the time) could have been interested in getting those views across about a better society, one where Socrates would not be put to death by the politicians/people but instead be respected by them. that’s the way it looks to me.
It’s weird that Plato’s most reknowned dialogue/book appears to me (by the end of it) to be the least Socratic of them, which is a shame because he started the dialogues as a dedication to Socrates and by the end of it, it seems he’s just become a mouthpiece for Plato.
For the most part, Plato is pretty boring, so I wouldn’t waste your time with most of his dialogues. I did enjoy Symposium, particularly the amusing anecdote about humans originally having four arms and such and being split apart and searching for our other half.
