Solutions, liberal or conservative?

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
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I wrote on some thread, can’t remember which one, but on
a thread I wrote that given a problem, the liberal is
likely to seek out a political solution, and the conservative,
an economic solution… tax breaks and the like…

But what is unsaid, that both ideas, seeking out the political
answer and seeking out an economic answer are answers of
the same sort… they are ‘‘ad hoc’’ of the moment solutions…
done without resorting to a principle, a liberal will think about
the solution in terms of the principle ethical code of ‘‘WOKE’’ values
which is to say, treat everyone with dignity and respect
and with justice…(justice just means equal) and conservatives
will think in terms of economics, or said another way, not with
my money will I help people… thus, saying money/wealth is
more important than people’s lives…

with conservatives focused on economic solutions
and liberals focused on political solutions, that is why we
have a clash within the two parties or even the two groups,
and why we have a hard time finding a middle ground
between liberals and conservatives…

let us bring this out in one of the problems of modern day America,
homelessness…whereas a conservative will say, if they
don’t work, make money, they don’t deserve to have homes…
making it an economic problem and yet, half of the entire U.S
homeless is children… and the conservative will blame the
parent, quite often it is single parents that suffer this way..
and yet, blaming still doesn’t solve the problem of children being
homeless… a liberal will seek out a political solution, the small
houses solutions of many cities/states is one answer, a political
answer… but building housing is still just an ‘‘ad hoc’’ solution
because it doesn’t answer the real problem of employement…
in which people are paid so little that they can’t afford housing,
and the answer for that, for conservatives is ‘‘work harder’’
and the liberal will say, raise the minimum wage…
a political solution… and both are engaged in ‘‘ad hoc’’ solutions…
for America’s wage problem, for example, Walmart employees get
paid so little that over 25% of all Walmart employees must have
some public assistance to make ends meet…
these people are working and working hard, the source of the problem
lies with the conservative battle cry of ‘‘profits before all else’’…
‘‘what is good for General Motors is good for America’’…
is a true representation of the conservative attitude…
which is economic in nature…

So, where do our solutions come from, and not just ‘‘ad hoc’’
solutions, solutions that solve the problem for the moment…
but leave long term solutions in the wind…

our solutions must have a short term effect and, AND a long
term effect… and one long term solution is education…
by increasing education, we improve people’s chances of
improving themselves… that is what education does,
it helps us improve ourselves… through education,
we become who we are… and thus one solution, is
to practice what many other counties do, which is
make collage free… pay for anyone going to collage…
that is one long term solution… and that solution has
proven effective in Europe… and in Asia…
Now conservatives, as part of their heritage, hate education…
they call it indoctrination… and yet, that is the point of being
educated… in which we learn what it means to be human…
it expands our own understanding of what it means to be human…
and that is a very good thing… the better we understand who we
are, and what is possible, that helps us become better people…
and that is the real goal of existence… not to make money,
or gain power or buy material goods, but to become a better
person… but Kropotkin, why that goal and not another?
For the chase after the trinkets of existence, as I have
explained before leads us nowhere… chasing money means
all we get is money, and chasing fame means gaining fame,
and seeking material goods, only gets us more material goods,
and what value do any of those lead us to? In other words,
we can only go as far as the trinket will lead us, nowhere else…
the seeking of money can only get us money, and nothing
more… it has no values beyond making money…
the one thing I can say about existence is that it is about change…
that is the one constant in the universe, change… and seeking out
the trinkets of existence, money, fame, power, material goods and
titles, doesn’t lead us to change, it leads us to more of the same…
seeking out money can only lead us to money, and seeking out
fame, can only lead us to fame… these trinkets have no
future or change within them…
but in education, that leads us to change… we cannot become
educated and not be changed… that is part of the point of
being educated, you become changed by it… learning
something that rocks your world is the point of being educated…

So, one long term solution to our myriads of problems is
education… and not the religious education favored by the
right, but education that leads us to knowledge, real knowledge
of what it means to be human…

that is one solution to our long term problems,
and one of the points of being educated, is that
we no longer depend on religion as being important…
education overcomes religion training… and that is
a very good thing… for much of the world’s problems
lie in religions and their usage… or has the thousand
year war between Muslims and Christians which has
killed thousands of people, has that war ended?
I hold that much of the world’s problems lie in religion
and the holding of religions… remove religions and much of
the world’s strife and wars will end…
and that becomes another solution to the world’s problems,
decrease the amount of religion in the world and the world
will become a much, much safer place…

Those are just two solutions to much of what ails the world…
and those solutions are not just ‘‘ad hoc’’ solutions, but
real, permanent solutions that can be applied worldwide…

so, what solutions do you see that are needed?
and do those solutions avoid the ‘‘ad hoc’’ solutions
of the left and right?

Kropotkin

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Why is it that i keep on constantly, perpetually and on repeat hearing this narrative, but at the same time liberals are the most racist, condescending, insulting, unjust, authoritarian scum that has existed in the western hemisphere pretty much since the nazi germany?

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One search into antifa and one wonders where this supposed dignity, kindness, respect and justice is.

Ridiculous.
The only thing constant with liberals is that they THINK that they stand for all those things.

Correct, and the liberal answer is to take property from everyone and distribute them equally among everyone regardless of whether or not they deserve or maintain it, because it feels good to appeal to your own ego and virtue, even though you are building a class based system of total stagnation.

Nobody can have more than the other does, nobody is allowed to excel, in your “kindness” you lock everyone into a box and break their backs if they dislike it cause in your opinion everyone should appreciate it and those who dont are just scum.

Oh and just to answer the question which literally takes a single f-ing sentence to do:
All you have to do is to give everyone the opportunity to maintain their life on their own.
Done.
Double done.
Problem solved.
No need for politics. No need for ideology. No need for kindness or the rest of the circlejerk bs.
If you take it on yourself to present everyone with the opportunity to sustain themselves, then you have done all that can EVER be required from you, and you have no responsibility of ANY KIND towards those who COULD sustain themselves but will not do so out of their own free volition.

Sick and tired of every argument that has these trash inverted subversion words in it like kindness and justice. Whenever i heart them its 99.9% sure that the proposed idea will be the individual massaging his own ego while proposing something that will be a.) an authoritarian nightmare and b.) the downfall and mass death of society on the long run.

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part of my own argument, is that religions are part
of the problem, not part of the solution…

Now one might argue, that by practicing religions, we
are creating or improving morals… and yet, there is
no evidence of this…virtually everyone in IQ45 administration
claims to be Christian, and yet, not one person actually
practices it…or is bombing Iranian hospitals/schools’ part of
practicing Christianity? Now one counter argument is
that we have to be able to defend ourselves…
so, this defending ourselves seems to have a very wide
field…we can hide our guilt of killing children, under the
guise of ''defending ourselves" and we can hide a massive
amount of violence against others, by simply claiming
we are ‘‘defending ourselves’’… the actual situation becomes
irrelevant because in any situation we can simply claim to be
‘‘defending ourselves’’

For example, when either/or either Putin or IQ45 finally drops
the bomb on whomever, they will simply claim to be
‘‘defending ourselves’’… for that is exactly the Nazi’s
defense of the Holocaust, we were defending ourselves,
and Abu Ghraib, and the Israeli genocide of Palestine,
indeed, every genocide begins with the ‘‘we are defending
ourselves’’ and Kropotkin, why shouldn’t we be able to defend
ourselves? Because behind every single atrocity we know of,
begins with ‘‘we were defending ourselves’’ apparently,
we can simply use this excuse to justify virtually every single
act of aggression and violence and war known to man…
If we use this defense, then it removes any appeal to ethics or morals
because apparently defending ourselves is above or outside of morals
and ethics…
and we can use this defense of ‘‘we are defending ourselves’’
in any terms or situation, we find ourselves in… then what is the
value or point of having a religion if we can simply override it with,
‘‘we were defending ourselves’’… in this case, there isn’t even
a point to having a religion if it can be overcome with those words…

now the interesting point here is that someone will accuse me
of hating religions or hating god or hating something or other…
but I am not interested in attacking religions if I can’t create
or find a solution to this worldwide problem…
and the solution is simpler than we think…
I am not interested in creating more religions or
increase participation in mass churches, like the
Catholic religion…or the Megachurches of the south…
my goal is much simpler… end those types of churches
that have church on Sunday and then we forget the lessons
of the week, no, I want a return to the old style religions,
where it isn’t about the church, but about the one on one
faith of a single person and their god…I don’t want 50
megachurches, I want 340 million people engaged with
their faith and god… I want 340 million churches in America…
where we stand face to face with god, one on one…return
religions and believe to one person and their god…
that is it… return religion to being about one person and one
god… nothing more, nothing less… in fact, I want more
religions, not less, but we return to the one on one that was
the hallmark of early religion… I don’t want 500 religions in
the world, I want 8 billion religions where people stand in
conversation with their own god, on their own terms…
me and thou… and that is all that is needed for us to
gain some peace from the ongoing violence between the
religions…

Kropotkin

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I had written down a very long and detailed response to your
post… and then I realized that you are so deluded and prejudice
against liberals that no answer I give will ever satisfy you…
you are grounded to your hate, and that’s fine, keep your hatred…
I shall go on making points even though I know that you have
no interest in any real dialogue…my advice,
keep to your own ignorance and hatred… I have no interest in
them…

Kropotkin

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The only hatred i have is towards ignorance. It just happens that ignorance goes hand in hand with people who hide behind lofty big words and lies like kindness, justice, respect and dignity.
I have seen plenty of liberals in my life, and all of them were beyond happy to suspend these big words if they can find a target for their cruelty, injustice, contempt and indignity.

I would give you an advice too about not flaunting these big words around when nobody on your side has ever taken them seriously (even if you maybe did), but i have no expectations similar to yours. Say whatever you like and i will defend your right to say it too. Afterall. I am not a liberal who wants to crack down on all forms of speech they dislike.

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Solutions? State communism obviously.

:clown_face:

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@Nausamedu

ANTIFA is a bunch of stupid anarchist rejects where even a few of them are on the FBI payroll or other intelligence agencies.

The very definition of political useful idiots.

It is sad they’re associated with Marxism, I piss in their general direction. I really don’t like anarchists.

:clown_face:

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@Peter_Kropotkin

If politics or political structures don’t lead to economic solutions they are then useless and empty idealistic rhetoric.

What is politics without economic solutions exactly? Ridiculous grandstanding?

The goal should always be economic fairness and affordability for the people along with lessening human suffering in all segments of society.

:clown_face:

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@Nausamedu

The problem with that line of thinking is that you give free reign to the superwealthy to own almost virtually everything where they lord it over everybody else.

Things have to be equally distributed otherwise you get tyrannical individuals who own everybody else. There needs to be equity otherwise you end up with a violent feudal despot controlled by tyrants.

We need equality, fairness, and justice but I agree we can make it more realistic where it is not a free pass for people to do whatever they want to. It should be equality, fairness, and justice within logical reason.

:clown_face:

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@Peter_Kropotkin

Yes, you’re an atheistic secularist. We get it.

Don’t expect the rest of us to follow your reasoning. I know you want the entire world to be atheistic but that has never happened before in human history and I doubt it ever will.

Your ideal world is one full of atheists.

:clown_face:

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Of course they are, but they are regarded as peak liberal
Defenders of freedom and liberalism and what not, standing against them damn fascists.
Who are the fascists? Well everyone and anyone who is not submitting to the liberal creed.

They are one of the most classic example as to why i abhor these bs claims about liberals being all about acceptance and care, and respect and love and peace.
The fck they are. Liberals are the most intolerant bunch that has existed in recent history. They will happily take a gun and shoot you just for debating and challenging their faith.

I am beyond disgusted, frustrated and sick by these Kropotkin type religious advertisement posts where they go around like “we are god’s gift to this earth, we bring love, peace, respect, tolerance and happiness […] unless you question us because then will cave your skull in with a brick”

Utterly tired of the fact that these people cant even own their very identity and beliefs.
Pathological, pathetic liars who claim to be everything they are not.
And despite of me saying that, i will also add: Sure. There are exceptions. Maybe Kropotkin is one of them too and means every word and is prepared to own those standards as an individual.
But not the group.
Not liberals as a whole.
What liberals are and stand for, is perfectly shown with the Charlie Kirk event. THAT is what liberals are. Shooting someone in the neck in front of their own family because of words.

The problem is that we do not know that.
Look, fundamentally and speaking on a principle basis, capitalism has built in controls too in order to prevent monopolies and the destruction of the free market. It is meant to be a system that is based on equal competition where nobody is granted ANY kind of advantage over the other.

This is the classic “but it was not real socialism” problem.
Socialism could work too on paper because it too has plenty of safety switches in order to control and keep itself from the centralization of power and the exploitation of the people.
Now have those safety switches ever been applied correctly?
Fuck no.

This is the classic example of corruption in any and every system that has ever existed.
Technically feudalism is a perfectly functional system too. Fck me, even a theocracy could work on paper if it shows enough restraint and self control.
The problem is that they dont.
None do.

Every and any system of governance our species has had since its conception, starting with the very basic “the alpha leads ungabunga” shait, was perfectly functional in theory and on paper as long as the leader(s) acted justly and/or in the people’s instead of their own interest.

So no. I dont agree that under this system we have to give all the power and everything else to the superwealthy. Even under this system, even in capitalism, IF the system worked correctly, then it would make short work of the superwealthy and the monopolies.
Its just that exactly like all other systems: It doesnt. Because it is corrupted. Because there is no oversight, and the people are sleeping again instead of taking a gun, and reminding both the billionaires and the government that the system is supposed to fear the fcking people, and act exactly on that basis and respect of “if i am not granting justice and a functional system to the people, then they will f-ing come and drag me out by the hair onto the street to then open me up from abdomen to neck”.

I wish it did not have to work with violence, death, blood and other extremities, but lets be VERY honest for ONE single second: Throughout the entire history and existence of humanity, did it ever work to just leave the government to it’s own devices, not constantly reminding it that it will be torn apart unless it keeps on acting in the interest of it’s people?
And i am asking this REGARDLESS of any system and ideology, whether its left right center religious alien or potatoes: Did it ever work out to not keep your governments at the sharp end of a sword?

Cause i dont think it ever did.
And it doesnt now.
It might not be tomorrow or in 10 years, but once again the people will eventually have to rise up and burn them motherf-ers because there is ONCE AGAIN no other way to address the issue.
Its not like you can legislate or talk yourself out of the problem. I WISH you could.
Oh how i wish if we had a system or if we were a species where we could just sit down and reason things out. Chances are that if you ever came too much of a thorn in the government’s side, you’d get either imprisoned or killed off. Thats your response to wanting to solve things by talking.

Ironically, the answer will always only ever be violence.
They say violence is never the answer. Well looking at history, do you think thats true? Does corrupt power excuse itself and leave just because you asked it to?

People really should take a long look at history and point out not dates and wars and event and all that nonsense… just the patterns.
What are the patterns in human history that keep on repeating ad infinitum?
Thats where the story starts about governance and our species as a whole…

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