If existence were written on a piece of paper, then if we crumple it up into a ball does it not still contain its contents?
It is not right to consider dimensions without objects to define them, nor energy without a definition of its values. Forces may only apply as the enactment of those values, finiteness and infinities to are relative measures.
Nothingness does not occur in the absence of all.
Truly don’t we necessarily have to consider the ‘something else’ as fundamental to philosophy and to reality?
If existence were written on a piece of paper, then if we crumple it up into a ball does it not still contain its contents?
Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps the very act of crumbling the paper, would change existence. It would still be there but you possibly have affected change within its contents. Existence is movement and energy…
It is not right to consider dimensions without objects to define them, nor energy without a definition of its values. Forces may only apply as the enactment of those values, finiteness and infinities to are relative measures.
Can we really know a thing without its relationship to something else? Everything is inter-connected.
Nothingness does not occur in the absence of all.
Can you define “nothingness” here?
Truly don’t we necessarily have to consider the ‘something else’ as fundamental to philosophy and to reality?
I would think that everyone in here would agree with this. That “something else” is what we are in search of…what needs to be brought out of the mysterious and made known…that “peeling back of the onion” which will reveal more “truth” , which will topple one’s beliefs and perceptions on their heads and make them disappear or dissolve in the light of a more fully clarified picture of the human equation and of the universe. That “something else” is the movement and energy of truth doing its revelatory dance and flowing into its becoming…
But then we have to ask all sorts of questions concerning how you can get something from nothing, it makes more sense to me that, although you loose a mass of the detail in the crumpling of the paper, you arrive at the fundamentals, which when blended arrives at all the complexity we see around us.
Thing is that you ultimately - if I may, have to arrive at a singleness to reality, and it has to contain everything that arrives in existence thereafter ~ at least in some way.
The only way all this can be resolved is by having an emptiness + information as one thing, the ‘something else’. information as we know it wont exist in that place as it takes time to communicate informations, so I have to wonder if there’s a silent language to it all; something to the folding/unfolding of reality map into existence and us.
Exactly! So when you take away that interconnectivity, you then have something entirely different.
Absolutely!
Sorry I didn’t reply earlier, I have been watching the Olympics quite closely, but that doesn’t stop my philosophical mind from turning over and making these threads.
From there, we have to ask the question: But is there really nothing?
But have you really lost anything or has existence simply become transformed? Has something, in actuality, ‘arrived’ or is it just that we are seeing it for the first time?
What do you mean by a ‘singleness’ to reality? If you could use another word to describe that…
But is that really to be seen as ‘something else’ or as part of the still, ongoing to-be- seen totality?
You mean to say that it actually doesn’t exist or that we haven’t learned of it yet? For instance, a beautiful star we may be looking at - are we looking at that star or simply the light of which has yet to reach us - the star having died out.
Maybe part of the silent language is our imagination - we think and we ponder possibilities and they show up or they’re revealed - sort of like they were always waiting in the wings. The ongoing process of the universe can also be seen as silent language, don’t you think? The only way we hear it is when we’ve discovered something new.
Have you ever taken a walk in nature? There is so much silent language there. So how does one hear it - by simply “listening” and “looking” and “perceiving” - just being within it. It may speak to us in a “silent” language but it resonates and is interpreted by our self and we come to understand in the moment.
Yes, the way in which we would look at what is left would change. For instance, a tree which was chopped down would reveal empty space (although in a sense the presence of that tree would still permeate the emptiness.
I hope that some of that made sense to you.
The opening ceremony was amazing, wasn’t it?
I wonder if the comparisons can be between one’s experience of ‘reality’ via the senses, and one’s imagination of possible realities that have yet to be proven false.
So we’re constantly comparing reality to our imagination and our awareness of reality is only as precise as our ability to imagine precision.
I happen to believe that reality exists in a never ending range of variety.
There are some realms which are only slightly real or substantial, then there are also realms of lacking and anti realms too.
Reality isn’t limited to what we see and experience.
Reality is infinite and natural. It was not created by a bang or a god.
that’s an excellent question! I think we loose the expression of something innate, as if there is a language of meaning beyond how we usually think of it. Going out on a limb here, for me such is the essence of ‘magic’, perhaps inspiration, intuition and the artistic process are a language of communication between ‘it’ and mind.
Its hard to imagine something that is meaning and thingness and emptiness all at once, but that’s what it is!
Well it’s the piece of paper weather it is crumpled or unfolded, it is always one thing. Naturally we cannot ascribe a single thing or name to that, because it would only ever be a portion of that oneness.
For me ‘the something else’ is entirely transformed beyond all possible recognition, necessarily it can only be completely different to anything we know.
…but that doesn’t mean it isn’t with us at all times, and is the essence of what we are.
It doesn’t exist, but its meaning does or at least something that can become that.
Absolutely! I agree it is forever contemporary and in the now [and perhaps nothing else but the something else is in the now?].
All you said makes sense to me, and yes I was pleasantly surprised by the opening ceremony.
Joe Schmoe
Indeed, and I think this is why ‘something else’ is so difficult to grasp and yet is the simplest kind of thing possible.
Dan~
that’s a very poetic way of seeing it!
I mostly or entirely agree, but the first line concerns me in that I cannot imagine that endless variety as the description of reality, though I can imagine it as a good description of its expression!
I like that ~ food for thought there. …it kinda sandwiches with what I am trying to mean here.
By innate here, do you mean something which we are born with?
And just so i can understand what you’re saying here, how is that we usually think of it - language of meaning, that is?
By magic do you mean 'sleigh of hand"? Probably not. Or do you mean the sense of something magical which comes over us because of what our senses perceive and then in turn interpet that meaningfully? As the second half, I agree - sort of like Martin Buber expressed by the “I” and “Thou” - the relationship which takes place between us and the world which surrounds us. That magical thing which occurs changes the object to a Thou. If that is what you’re trying to say. In order to understand each other, we have to know if we do.
For myself, I don’t so much think that the difficulty comes in the imagining of it - that’s where inspiration in the moment lies and it does resonate within as a very magical moment. Perhaps the difficulty is in the understanding of it. And perhaps the true meaning of it occurs in NOT understanding it. Maybe I’m wrong here though.
I suppose an example of what you say could be the concept of God. Whether one believes or not, I think that there is meaning and thingness and emptiness within a moment of thought there. Inspiration and intuition take over, for instance, out of a moment of being surrounded by nature and let’s say sitting on a park bench listening to and being totally amazed and swallowed up with the roar of thunder surrounding one (my experience yesterday) and though one may be agnostic, all of those 3 things arise and envelop you - and such a magical moment takes affect. It’s where the sensory stimuli from the brain meets spirit and creates a big kaboom.
You mean that it has different aspects to it? Like a tree is apparently one thing but it has different characteristics, which can be seen and yet can’t be seen except through a particular individual’s mind…qualia.
Can you give that a name? Do you mean spirit or soul?
Just because we think of something as not being part of the ‘material’ world, does that mean that it doesn’t exist? Unless I am misunderstanding you. Othewise, you seem to be speaking of illusion here - in the sense that something may be meaningful to us but it doesn’t really exist.
Everything is in the Now, amorphos. Tell me, what would you consider to be that “something else” physically speaking that is?
I’m glad to hear it - I don’t always make sense to people. I wonder if you are who I think you may be …sort of resurrected or out of hibernation (in a sense lol)
No sorry, my misuse of terms probably, but I meant innate as in a part of us which is in the ‘something else’. something like original innocence perhaps, but also inner wisdom/meaning.
Conceptually, visually, linguistically, but whatever it is it is not directly the same as the ‘something else’.
There is for me a necessary distinction or break in the translation of languages, between the two levels of ‘information’. …as we have gone through a process of complete change in the state of the paper, and how can state relate directly to statelessness? Finite to the infinite etc.
Perhaps this is why philosophy gets more metaphoric and poetic as we get deeper.
Not slight of hand no, and also not “the relationship which takes place between us and the world which surrounds us” ~ though that is a kind of ‘magic’ to me.
What I am talking about here is what happens when the mind communicates outside of nature - in a manner of speaking. Where nature is an expression of reality which involves the material, life and that language of unfolding meaning derived from the ‘something else’. so we have magic in that [bit like the druidic dragon, or coiled serpent] but the originating language is also itself, its own thing, it permeates all of reality [kinda like how we think of God maybe [but I am trying to explain the concept without placing such limits upon it], and our minds can occasionally connect with it mystically.
No I think you are right, ‘once it is written it is lost’ eh! [as in my sig]. as soon as you think of it in earthly terms then it is no longer ‘something else’.
I am unsure if it is God with a capital ‘g’ at least ~ personified. Equally I wouldn’t call it the Tao or anything else cultures have attempted to define it by.
What limits would we be placing upon it by calling it God? Do you or any abrahamists think that god is reality and existence is god unfolding and expressing itself?
What if it has infinite expression as like Dan suggested? Then surely one cannot call that anything at all, or even think of it in that kind of singularity.
…there would be endless ‘big kaboom’s’!
Indeed yes, along with the impossibility of its partitioning. I like to try to keep away from ideas which solidify it, as to me it is objectless.
Buddha would say those things are illusions as are our mortal bodies. I’d say they are expressions of the inner nature and would not divide reality into real and not real.
The inner nature can create all such things at will.
…that’s what you are doing here in this world, you made yourself manifest as yourself [the earthly human expression of that]. Or all things are made manifest by its inner magic, or both. I havent worked that part out as yet, nor do I really want to.
Indeed I am not speaking about illusion but what reality is when it is not expressed in the material. It is still reality!
Lol, well I don’t know who that is and thought we were all kinda like that. My clairvoyant thinks I am either an angel or an alien, but I think she is just reading to much into my aspergers syndrome, and I am very much an imperfect man lol.
Can you explain that a bit more, Amorphos. What I am getting from your usage of the word, ‘innate’ is something which develops within us, a kind of evolution. Or, you’re speaking about something which is a ‘natural’ characteristic of the human being?
I thought I would copy and paste this statement of yours over here:
"The only way all this can be resolved is by having an emptiness + information as one thing, the ‘something else’."
I’m trying to understand your use of that phrase “something else” You seem to be using it to denote something which is looked at without judgment/assumption/ presumption. Also, your username,at least for me, conjures up an image of what you might be speaking about - as in something lacking shape, undetermined - that ‘something else’ yet to be born or known. lol. Squeezing the meaning from words is like trying to climb a muddy mountain which we continue to slide down yet we continue on - and up.
Are you asking how the material can relate to the immaterial world? Or are you simply making a statement here? A distinction to me is something, some characteristic, which completely separates something from something else, makes them different. A break is kind of like a rupture, wherein space resides, and perhaps that is where your something else is…the space it takes for change to take place.
I suppose it is impossible for it not to…because words fail…and sometimes then all that is left is metaphor and poetry…which sometimes may describe and interpet meaning better than words (although poetry is words but it’s more about resonance and the inner experience). If I speak of the meaning of the word Presence to you and ask you to go sit before a tree, you might come to know and to experience Presence in a much deeper and “real” way than if I gave you a word definition of it. Did that make sense to you?
I can’t quite grasp your meaning here, Amorphos…unless you simply mean when the mind communicates in a way which is not ‘natural’ to it…where mind or spirit may become transcendent. Sort of the mundane becoming the sublime, in a manner of speaking. That’s where you reach into and touch the mystical…which is quite magical. At the same time,
I used to be a dragon. And there was a time when I entertained the idea of reincarnation, that I thought I might have been a Druid priestess because I am so so so weird for trees. But the thought of those bloody sacrifices - well, I just don’t know about that. But there are still our bloody sacrifices, some of which we make of ourselves and some of which we bring upon others, but they are bloodless (me thinks). But I’m digressing.
I think our minds can only connect with it mystically when we have ceased our thinking. But it begins with thought and then there is that rupture. Good word, rupture.
I actually agree with you there. For me, it is impossible to personify what to people is known as god without losing the transcendent and flowing “living” moment. The concept of god, if there is a god, can only really belong in the realm of the mystical. “Something else” fits there because that has to remain amorphous.
That’s not to say that everything must be known as “something else”, does it? There are “real” facts which explain reality. But then, beneath the surface, lies most of the iceberg. And what is Not apparent belongs in the realm of the “something else”. And so, - we can still say, along with Hamlet, that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
There are a great many words which would more effectively describe this Something that is called god that would not emprison it within the concrete.
This is actually why I have a problem with that word. We confine the true meaning of that concept - what is “real” and “actual” about that Something (which is the word I generally use lol) and it becomes not only written in stone but becomes stone itself…not capable of being molded or shaped. The trick is to become the potter who continually molds and shapes the idea but never finishes the creation of it. The potter may end up with endless muddy hands but that is the nature of its doing.
I’m an agnostic. I don’t think I just wonder about it. At the very least, If I would come to “see” this possible Something as a reality, it would Never be one which was a Judaic/Christian one. At the same time, just as everything is a continuing and unfolding and expressing of itself, just as is the universe, just as are we, (or ought to be) it would still be such an elusive and transcendent mystery to me that I would continually search it out with the intuition that it IS like some kind of a “something else” knowing or at least hoping (at the same time) that I would never come to know it - as others believe they do. Did that make any sense to you? It made perfect sense to me.
Like the ‘infinite expression’ deep space maybe? Astronomers continue to learn more and more about it - about black holes and dark matter…ad continuum. I suppose it can be called something - we can call it the unnamed or the ongoing process. lol
But to a philosopher or a scientist, especially to the philosopher, isn’t it always at the same time - STILL - something else? And whether or not even those people chose not to see it in that way, “reality” such as it is, would still embrace it as that ‘something else’ and would find a way to show us. And, we must remember to use invisible ink so that that which is “written” may fade and that which is something else reappears - is always brought back to “reality”.
You must love the water. Do you like to swim? If so, you must be so happy to be in an unformed fluid, flowing kind of reality. But even water can be ‘partitioned’ in a way, amorphos - by its wetness, temperature, depth, width, etc. Or is that not what you are speaking about? lol
I think that Buddha at times got a bit carried away as a result of his wanting to detach from the world. Of course, at the time, he did not realize that in a sense he was correct in that as our brains see things, perhaps they are not…swirling atoms, that is.
At the very least, spirit is not so much an illusion even though it might originate somehow within the brain or at least, like our breath flows out of our mouths and we can see it on a really cold day, spirit is an immaterial extension of the material. Perhaps defining "reality’ is as difficult as defining “god”. Of course, IF there is, in actuality, NO soul but what we sense or feel is simply an extension of that magic moment we experience when we appear to connect to something LARGER than ourselves - well, then, soul would be an illusion, wouldn’t it? Or is it that simply having the experience of one would create that “reality”? How do we define the not-so-obvious distinction between what is real and what is illusion barring of course of course outlandish things like fairies and leprecauns?
Yes, this is true. Nicholas Humphry, in his book, Soul Dust: The Magic of Consciousness, uses the term "ipsundrum’ to describe something which takes place within the brain, an illusion-generating inner creation in response to sensory stimulation . I find it to be really interesting and I think that there is truth to it though it is just a hypothesis. If I remember, its brought about individually as a result of all of our inner and outer experiences, sort of like a pattern or mathematical equations which have been set up within the brain and these ipsundrums are created from them. I think an example of this might be the PRESENCE I sense or feel coming from a tree itself as a result of my own feeling of presence and solitude and peace within the moment. I look at it, the tree, and what I sense in the tree is actually generated from my own brain and sensory stimuli. If that made sense to you. But is it possible that the tree is still being present to me or is it an illusion?
IYou mean through my being born.
I’m surprised that you, amorphos, would think in terms of having “made yourself manifest as yourself”.
I think that all immaterial things come into being by our brain’s and mind’s relationship to the external world. The ipsundrums again. There really is such magic within that - just think of imagination itself? What imagination and the sensing of possibilities have given way to - so very many physical manifestations!
At the same time, since we know so little, despite the fact that we know so much about the human brain, how can we possibly know what lurks within the Universe and its workings?
So please do not fret, Amorphos, no one will begin to work much of anything out - not in comparison with what there is within this Universe of ours and perhaps other Universes which we have no idea of. What? You thought ours was the only one? Ours may perhaps be more like an effect of many others affecting many others which have affected many others. Now, do you begin to see - there is nothing for you to worry about. There will always be that ‘something else’ unfolding which will never reach ‘definition’.
You have a clairvoyant? Is she any more helpful to you than the one who is capable of seeing things clearly because he/she is mindful and looks and listens and understands the nature of cause and effect and can advise and inform you?
What does being an angel or alien have to do with aspergers?
We are all very much imperfect though, aren’t we, amorphos? Within our imperfections we are somewhat perfect, the way I look at it anyway, as long as we do our utmost to do no harm to others nor ourselves.
Take your time with this. It would appear that I was in some kind of a writing mood though I do hope that it holds some validity and sense to it. If not, well, I’m imperfect and do not have all knowledge nor wisdom…in other words, I’m a work in progress.
Oh my word that’s one hell of a post, I’ll try to summarise my reply or we’ll be writing a book lol
I’d say its more ‘there’ within the something else that is our fundamental nature, but sure we develop alongside it as some manner of personal development/evolution. Its probably the thing which evolution moves by to.
Ha indeed, my username is ‘amorphous’ with the ‘u’ [self] taken out of it but then used as a name, a double Buddhist twist kinda. The something else is ‘other than’ anything we’d compare it to.
Hmm interesting, yes it is in terms of how it permeates the world [like the dragon] that space change takes place in. I’d go all the way and say that not only is reality the folded/unfolded paper, but each reality is also, you are one such folding as am I, equally the world is its folding paper as is a grain of sand! [to see the world in a grain of sand?].
Each thing is its own reality map, reason being that you cannot have part of a reality, energy does not exist because it’s a metaphoric understanding via math [also a metaphor] [we cant find an actual ‘bit’ of energy, it all gets abstract when we try], but reality is non-metaphoric in this sense.
Indeed it does make sense, its something I spoke about on the other thread concerning wisdom.
The language of inner meaning is natural but not nature, and yes is transcendental. Yes, the true mystery.
I think you are a druid priestess as I am a druid, but we are not like what they used to be, or at least what people say they used to be like. Cultures have changed and we have all grown, druids may have sacrificed criminals in much the same way as Christians burned witches, in fact some of the former culture was still around then. I think people would still do that now say to child killers etc. for us priest we had to perform such duties as the people require, but lets not forget the true religion in examples like druids falling between armies as an act of peace and sacrifice!
Yes and no are equally true here.
Absolutely! This is the most fundamental druidic wisdom, its why we didn’t get on with the romans, they brought their gods and expected to be able to put druidic deities alongside them or in with them. Yet the fundamental principle here is in the lack of such absolutes, god or gods it makes no difference to the potters.
Again yes it makes complete sense, the mystery must remain such, not only that but that is its nature, it’s the real form of ‘mystery’, not a thing, but not an imagination either. Its as entire folded as it is unfolded.
Yes indeed.
I cant swim lol, but yes I love fluidity, hydrogen super-fluid is my favourite, the atoms all act in a kind of communism. Water can indeed be partitioned, the silvery sheen of the surface was known to the Celts as the ‘Kenneth’, it represented the apparent division between the underworld and earthly world.
Well the spirit here is replaced by the something else, we are a reality map [one piece of paper, folded/unfolded/entire] and that is expressed in earthly and perhaps otherworldly form [the soul or Sahu].
More that you being born is part of your reality map [paper].
I don’t know if there are more than one universe, that infers reality is more than one piece of paper? The whole point here is that it is never that.
No she is no more useful than that, but she is something extra, a different way of seeing things. She ‘sees’ things kinda like a film going by in her mind, but is composed of symbols. The symbols are metaphoric and can be read many ways, but for me they have always been true in some way, even if what she thought was going to happen only actually occurred in potential, it was something I may have done if I made that choice.
Aspergers makes you feel alienated, bit like a hermit, and gives you a sometimes child-like wisdom and sense for peace. Einstein had aspergers you know.
I agree we are perfect in our imperfections, because the result is wisdom.
lol - I am aware that one of my limitations is the inability to summarize. My stream of consciousness takes over and poof…I really must work on that. But alas, how to stop a deluge?
Perhaps we can call it the process of emergence. I love that word emergence.
So then that ‘something else’ must mean that which has not become known or revealed as of yet and is totally foreign to us. Mystery?
Well, Blake’s ‘seeing the world in a grain of sand’…isn’t that more about “reality” according to one’s own perception? The buddhists believe that there is only illusion, if I am not mistaken. But you appear to be saying that there are different realities…that nothing can be taken as a whole. If it is, does it become diminished and that something else undefinable?
So reality also has to do with how each of us experiences something. I can perceive “reality” as Indra’s net…each perception, each thing is a separate “reality” while at the same time being so interconnected. …which because of that makes each thing its own reality still.
It’s natural to the individual’s way of perceiving and experiencing it due to his/her spirit/mind. So, couldn’t you say that the language of inner meaning is part of nature? Perhaps when you used the word “natural” you meant “universal”? There are symbols which are universal which have become embedded within our minds and our very cells. Symbols are part of the Universal Mind.
I am? If I am a priestess, do I get to tell you what to do? lol. O/K. What makes me a druid priestess? The fact that I am so weird for trees? And by what name would I be known? The fact that I have known many Oaks intimately? lol Do you know that the word “weird” comes from a word meaning “magical”? When i was growing up I was sometimes, or more often, called ‘weird’. Even now, I am sometimes called weird but now I have come to relish the word. So nothing negative about that. Whatever is not understood or appears to be different is known as weird. Perhaps weird is part of that “something else”.
So ARE you saying that you’re a druid? That is your religion?
Didn’t druids also sacrifice innocents? I suppose in a way that’s the purest sacrifice? Why bother otherwise?
Christians burned what they did not understand. There are no such things as witches, except for those who thought they were, to give themselves deluded inner power. For instance, they burned Joan of Arc at the stake thinking she was a witch. She may have been schizophrenic but she did supposedly get the job done. Unless that was all fantasy. We always destroy what we fear, what we don’t understand.
If I forgot myself in the moment, I might just hang a child killer to a tree and plunge the knife into him but I wouldn’t drink of his blood. Yes, druids did make of themselves sacrifices but were they honored for that? No?
But were these druidic deities also made of stone? And to the druids, were their gods and goddesses fully known?
That too speaks of different realities. At the same time, our imagination is that space wherein what is folded becomes unfolded. It isn’t so much that it becomes unfolded but that it is a continual unfolding. And maybe that’s where “something else” emerges from - within that perpetually unfolding space.
That’s pretty. Perhaps the sidhe were doing their dance upon the waters.lol
You mean to say when we or our spirit experiences something which is transcendent, we flow into that "something else’ which cannot be defined and which is so unlike anything else? Is that what you’re saying above?
Yes, but at the same time, what words appear on that paper are not necessarily “reality” such as IT IS but as we make it. Hmmm…but there is no reason, I suppose, to deny the existence of a kind of inner reality which appears on the doorstep of our minds because of the brains’s interfacing with external forces. Qualia is a reality it is just different for each of us.
I suppose in a sense that the tree is being present to me as it IS there. lol Wouldn’t it be wonderful if living things like trees did have their own kind of special consciousness or soul-like awareness. I swear that at times it does appear to be that way to me. No, I’m sane. And thank you so much for those hyperlinks. I think to at least be able to ponder the possibility of something like that, though it might appear to be fantasy or pseudo science, could be such an enriching nurturing experience and who knows - it might just lead to touching on that ‘something else’. There is so much beautiful mystery in the universe. Okay I’m rambling.
Of course, everything which I know, perceive/see and experience is part of my reality map. …part of that map which guides me towards or into reality. Also, insofar as others have the potential to affect my world, their reality maps touch and cross over into mine. I think this is why it is so important to choose our friends wisely.
Unless I am misunderstanding you here, why would a “reality” of universes have to be “more than one piece of paper”. Maybe you just perceive it in this way. Our imaginations can enlarge that piece of paper to the limitless, can’t it? After all, we know that we are nowhere, in a sense, when it comes to seeing how expansive the fabric of space is. How do we know that there cannot be other universes just at the edges, the boundaries of our own universe? We are all at the edges of our perceptions. Would that we could simply jump in!
How can you know for sure, amorphos, how she sees things and/or that she sees things going on in her mind - except through ‘faith’? And In what way, does this serve you? I’m really just interested and curious about this.
I didn’t know that Einstein had aspergers…or I forgot. Also, one can feel like a hermit and at the same time not feel alienated. But I do get what you mean. There were often times growing up when I felt quite alienated - and I don’t mean self-imposed alienation as one might “desire” to experience as in being in a cave all alone, so to speak. I have also quite often experienced the desire for 'cave-like alienation. I wonder if your kind of alienation as a result of the aspergers has a similar feeling or experience to that which I experienced at times growing up. I’m not sure but it might. But then perhaps a better word for that which was desired or desirable would be solitude, not alienation.
The result may be wisdom…depending on how we respond.
Thank you.
Here we go again arc! Book 2. whats your first name?
Me too, I think its quite feminine ~ like how a ladies eyes light up when you give her flowers or a surprise.
A reality map is an entirety too, and so perhaps we may see ourselves as an eventual entirety ~ like the Egyptian ‘Sahu’ or over-soul, the collective of all or spiritual forms and lives [emergences].
Indeed.
I’d expect so, for me it refers also to seeing something universal about reality.
Is an infinite space greater than an infinite point? Are we more than a germ, a flower, less that a mountain, the world?
Not exactly, its more that there is only one reality [nirvana/Buddha being] and hence everything else is illusion.
Indeed there are only realities, where we perceive different we are only describing part of a reality, but that doesn’t make the reality it pertains to diminished in any way. Imho.
I don’t think that how we experience things differently and subjectively, changes the reality, it only changes the observational perspective of the same thing.
Indeed, I was just trying to separate nature ~ as in the wild, life etc, from ‘natural’ as in out of body experiences feel perfectly natural ~ but aren’t ‘nature’ as we would usually think of it.
I suppose we should say that super-nature is nature too, that there is only ‘nature’ whatever its state. Here we can just think of nature as a term representing a different expression of the meaning of ‘reality’ here.
Haha druids were advisors more than bosses, and I don’t believe you would want to tell me what to do . Mostly I try to read ‘feelings’ about people whilst a debate is ‘alive’, but yes your words and ‘weirdness’ emphasise that presence. I see it all as positive attributes. …and yes, definitely weird is part of that something else, at least a connection to its true beauty/meaning/unfolding.
I think spiritual people were always being asked to do what they didn’t want to do. In a modern context perhaps as they held power in society, you had psychopaths in the ranks as you do in big business, ~ as you say, the same occurred in Christianity, but Jesus didn’t torture and kill people, he said ‘judge not for thou shall be judged themselves’.
I kinda like that we have moved beyond all that and I would want to go back to it, but I do believe in the essential magic, which is why I am reinventing it.
I think magic and philosophy should always be contemporary, learn and move forwards.
I think most druidic deities are personifications and metaphors of magical properties and elements [folds in the paper too], like the green man isn’t a god, but represents male natural magic, the contemporary of the earth goddess [triple goddess].
I think the druids knew of romano-greek gods yes, the gauls even used greek alphabet for commerce, and the greeks had a colony in southern gaul.
Interesting way of seeing it, and I agree. The something else kinda moves with the unfolding and is at all bases.
Indeed!
Yes I don’t think its entirely predetermined, we create words and meaning as we go. At the same time yes as part of the artistic/druidic process those words may equally appear on the doorstep of our minds.
For me qualia are part of the spirits composition rather than the worlds, the spirit manifests qualia relative to sensory signals such that we can understand the world. It is also the thing by which a spirit interfaces with a living foetus.
It goes lower than that, the same essential workings of cells in our neurons, are the same in all cells [as described in scientific american] and in all life right down to the microscopic level. I cant imagine just how different to us trees must be though, so passive and live so long.
Reality itself is only one piece of paper. An infinite line = an infinite space ~ take a piece of paper start drawing a line and you end up with a scribble then you fill the whole page.
So infinite sets don’t/cant exist, you get one singularity because you get only one infinity and its expression, not many nor infinite infinities.
that’s not to say that you cant get many realms of reality! Just only one material manifestation/expression.
Well I had a vision where the father/Dagda showed me part of my future, and it too was very symbolic and full of metaphors. I think there is a language by which the future can be ‘known’ in terms of all possible outcomes of given circumstances, and that’s why some of it lies in potentials and others in real things which occurred. Godly visions are naturally very much more powerful than that of clairvoyants’, but I think the ’gift’ is a connection to the same thing essentially.
It sounds the same as it is for me, sometimes I think psychology just puts labels like ‘aspergers’ on people, so they think they can understand the human condition via categorisation. This for me is a massive mistake, we humans are simply much and varied, its only a problem when there is physical damage. Even then we can usually be who we are regardless of massive damage like e.g. steven hawkins.
First name "lil’… last name “acorn”. lol Naw, that’s not me.
That’s an interesting thought - emergence as being feminine. I like that. So…what name would you give for the “masculine” process?
IS a reality map an “entirety” - being that our realities, ALSO because of our perceptions, so often change or at least are capable of changing? After all, isn’t it that SOMETHING ELSE which must be looked at which defines or re-defines our reality maps? Think about how the world would change if people thought in terms of that “Something Else” more often.
Relationships might be different or perhaps some might not even have Become. What we choose to do with our lives, for instance, insofar as careers go, might take on a different shape altogether because we have considered that “Something Else”…or what we ourselves actually wanted. Very often, brain chemistry is the “Something Else” which we choose to ignore as being responsible for our realities.
When you stop to consider it, more or most, if not all, could be looked at in terms of that “Something Else”…our thoughts, behavior/reactions, moods, which we didn’t stop to consider. Even beautiful phenomena like a rainbow is SOMETHING ELSE. We are totally surrounded by it yet we don’t see it. I know that we cannot go through life with an underlying awareness within our minds or a whispering of the mantra “Something Else”. Then we couldn’t ever see “reality” in any concrete terms but at the same time we can hold two thoughts within our minds - one that reality is oh so fluid and one that it is at the same time concrete. But is it? lol
Auguries of Innocence is such a BEAUTIFUL and poignant POEM…
…"A skylark wounded in the wing, A cherubim does cease to sing…"
…and perhaps, Amorphos, a daffodil being crushed DOES disturb a distant star…
But perhaps above we are saying the same thing here - just using other language. Or am I wrong?
That would depend on one’s perspectives, wouldn’t it? One would simply see INFINITY and one would see space and the point. The Poet would see both at the same time. lol Everything gets drawn in, merged together and becomes as One. All is as one and also as Something Else.
Everything Else? How could one possibly separate “one reality” from “everything else”? Illusion is part of that one reality. Maybe I’m missing the point here.
I agree in part with you here. We are describing the way in which WE see it. But there is a much deeper reality which none of us see…that reality of SOMETHING ELSE waiting in the wings.
I may be misunderstanding you here, Amorphos, but how does an “out of body experience” feel natural? Wouldn’t that be something which opposes nature as in supernatural - which is “above” nature so not a part of it? Hmm…But of course, it would be a part of reality IF …if such a thing existed. But let’s say that it was brought about as a result of drugs…would that be natural then being that it happened as a result of matter, a chemical reaction occurring within the brain? lol I don’t wish to confuse you - nor myself…
Ah, give me the advisor who doesn’t try to control at the same time. Down with the other kind. No, I wouldn’t want to tell you what to do…but it is human at times to cross that barrier…
You can save your reading of feelings for another place…I agree that weird is a part of that “something else” . What we don’t understand or even "see"can seem to be subjectively weird to us. It’s a shame - the beauty and meaning and truth which becomes lost because of that not diving into “something else”.
It isn’t an easy thing to “remember” who we are at our core self and what we are about. Power can and does corrupt even the most spiritual. Our spiritual sides can become more “religious” and “controlling” in nature rather than remaining open to the universe/ fluid/flowing/meaningful/seeking truth and part of our desire to do no harm and to always become… Some would say that it is our spiritual natures which are the strongest force but being human we have to be aware of our instinctual side too.
What is the “essential” magic? And how does one determine what IS essential?
Reality is both fluid and concrete. lol Again I see it as Indra’s Web…or like the ocean. One reality but oh so very much is a part of that which cannot as of yet be seen.
Qualia is ALSO part of the material world, Amorphos determined BOTH by our brains and the chemicals which influence them “interfacting” with the world surrounding. But I have to ALSO agree with you that it is a part of our individual spiritual essence or way of intuiting/sensing/feeling something. Otherwise, I would have to say that we are nothing but a product of our human natures…and though that could STILL be seen as something quite magical…pondering evolution can give one a sense of the magical, at the same time, it would be lacking in that “essential magic”. lol Me thinks anyway.
Reality to me isn’t just this…it is also that at the same time. And of course that “something else”.
…
AND, do you really believe that trees are so much different from us, Amorphos? They do outlive us but many do not unfortunately. And do you think that they are so passive? Have you ever seen a tree swaying and struggling in the wind to survive? Their very swaying and bending with the wind or against the wind does not speak to me of passivity but rather of a going with the flow (which is not passivity)…try it some time…lol but a harmony and a wisdom. Perhaps I was not a druid in another life but a tree. lol Only kidding of course. That WOULD be called magical thinking.
I totally agree with you here but I suppose that at the same time there are labels which are necessary no? - maybe they can be seen like symbols or metaphors, in a sense. But they do also de-humanize people - but at the same time, they cannot!
Similar yes but at the same time not the same. But I think that both experiences of alienation or aloneness - that which comes from Aspergers and that which comes as a result of our circumstances/situations as children, our introvertedness and/or our emotional incapacity to express our thoughts/feelings to others out of a sense of distrust and a lack of or loss of identity, do stem from a reaction to chemicals in the brain as a result of outside influences ALSO.
Hmm what an interesting question. I know what I would like to think of it, but that’s another thing lol. I think they are mutual, you cant have one without the other ~ same too to the process. In druidic Awens [winds/thought] there is a ‘light’ [and a whiteness [guess why lol] consider also ancient britonic temples composed of white chalk, there has been found arrowheads etc where a war was waged to stop the building of an ancient british temple on the Ridgeway, my guess is that one tribe wanted to stop the other from building the temple] you can see in things for the masculine process, [same with the Tao] and an emptiness for the feminine ~ like space and the womb if you get my meaning.
Absolutely. It doesn’t matter about the transient things and change when beyond that is permanence. There is ‘something’ which is experiencing change ~ you see?
Right! sometimes we need to go beyond our current restrictions to find our ‘way’. I agree that the brain is an instrument and an incredible one if we make proper utility of it.
Hmm well that’s the duality isn’t it! There is change and yet there is something that remains the same throughout.
Well I appreciate what you meant by Blake’s poetry being a thing of perception, but for me that also means there is something real to that perception, there is something about reality that makes it so. When you consider the entire universe being in superposition and not having spatial locations, then one emergence is pretty much the same as another. Yes all is one and all is something else.
that’s a very poignant point, I don’t think you are missing it at all, that’s exactly my problem with that way of thinking; reality is always real, right!
Because I am natural as are you, as are those other levels of ‘nature’. its still the person.
Drugs can only affect our condition, LSD for example chemically creates a disconnect between the brain and soul, thus the soul breaks free.
The ‘supernatural’ is still nature but on a different level. isn’t god natural?
The essence of what everything is, the folds of the paper by which we are all connected ~ don’t you feel it?
I think the ancient spirituality should be left in the past imho. I am very contemporary in that respect.
There is no ‘qualia’ there is just mind in all its magnificence, it can take simple physical info and make it into something magical which we experience. …and that is not material! I was watching a documentary the other day [science VS religion] and a neuro-scientist stated that she could not find consciousness in the structure of the brain.
I see that the trees kinda feel nothing of the wind [but do], its just a passing breeze [though contradicting they feel everything]. Hold your arms up to the wind and let it flow through you! The elements; aren’t they wonderful.
How very insightful! I think I love you. labels are useful as long as not concrete.
Hmm I think I agree that naturally there is a-priory knowledge and decision making in the brain to which we are not authors of its teleology! I so wish more people out there understood this basic fact.
because I am so so so weird for trees. But the thought of those bloody sacrifices - well, I just don’t know about that. But there are still our bloody sacrifices, some of which we make of ourselves and some of which we bring upon others, but they are bloodless (me thinks). But I’m digressing.
. Mostly I try to read ‘feelings’ about people whilst a debate is ‘alive’, but yes your words and ‘weirdness’ emphasise that presence. I see it all as positive attributes. …and yes, definitely weird is part of that something else, at least a connection to its true beauty/meaning/unfolding.
labels are useful as long as not concrete.