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I mentioned that when a number of people “got” that free will did not exist, some were angry, some were sad, some were joyful. It’s not the “no free will” that causes a feeling of fatalism. It’s whatever a person creates from the fact. If you feel that “no free will” is a hopeless situation, that doesn’t mean that it is. It’s just your creation. Things are still as they were before I posted this thread. You haven’t lost a thing.
I was one of the joyful ones at this news. To me, it meant no guilt, no responsibility, just relaxing into what "is’ I find it a nice place to be. Took me back to my childhood. Think on that.
Surely you are kidding…?
Are you suggesting that no one is ever mistaken?
I would more believe the opposite.
Emmm… okay…
“ONE thought” - “Red apples are blue.”
So now what is your point?
And btw, “the magic of existence” happens to be my specialty.
You seem to be a solipsist, the most notably erroneous philosophy throughout the history of philosophies.
How often do you think that red apples are blue? Have you told anyone else this?
You see, when I said give me one thought, I didn’t mean pick one out of thin air. What good would that do? Look through your thoughts and find me one that YOU think is false. I don’t want to argue about this. I tell you what is, I tell you how to check the truth of it and the rest is up to you. I have no interest in how you want to live. I’m not your daddy.
If you continue to play with me, don’t waste your time. I will not answer any more of this type of childish behavior. And I am not in the mood for passive aggression. Just be honest. Be truthful.
I could not find “solipsist” in any of my dictionaries and my spell checker okayed it. I have been called that before and I once knew what it meant, but I don’t now. Maybe you can enlighten me, because I do have a response your statement.
What do you mean, “the magic of existence is your speciality”?
I never said that no one is ever mistaken. I have no idea how you read that into anythng I have ever said.
You misunderstand. It’s not a matter of being right or wrong. We are not arguing. What I am saying is that I want you to find a thought that you have that YOU believe is false. It doesn’t matter what I think. Right now, you believe the thought, “some of my thoughts are not true,” is true. So we haven’t found one that you believe is false yet. One to nothing, right?
Yes, you asked for an example of a thought that I think is false. But I’ve done better. I’ve given you an example of a thought of mine that MUST BE FALSE by your own reasoning- the reasoning of “Every thought you have is true”. That is the principle you proposed this challenge in order to defend.
I sincerely think the following:
“Some of my thoughts are not true”.
Is it true, or isn’t it?
Surely you can’t be the only one allowed to ask questions. So answer mine.
No No No No No No! And in relation to “But I’ve done better,” Hah ha ha aha. O Lord!
Please look. This is not an argument. I really don’t care whether you win an argument or I do. I AM NOT ARGUING!
It is interesting to me that it seems you can only think in terms of winning arguments. I assume you are rather young - twelve years old or so?
I’ll explain it once more, and in greater detail. Then I am done with it - with the “argument.”
What I am saying is that you never have a thought that you don’t believe - that you think is false. Mull that over a bit.
Now, if you think that is a false statement, you can prove it to yourself by simply finding a thought you have that is false.
Mull that one over a little longer than you did the second sentence above.
And now, there is a further phenomena of which this exercise is just the beginning. This is a preparatory exercise. You cannot go further with this until you convince yourself of the truth of it by experiencng the truth of “no false thoughts.”
For the sake of this explanation, imagine that you have found that absolutely all of your thoughts YOU believe are true. Common sense will tell you that that can’t be. Something is wrong. You have false thoughts, but you don’t know which ones they are. And what is wrong with this?
Well, your thoughts form your reality. So, since you have false thoughts and you don’t know which ones they are, you will have a reality that isn’t true and will absolutely, cause you problems.
So this is all for your benefit - not mine. And can you now see that I have no intention of arguing with you even though you don’t quite understand what I am saying? Nobody will ever win this “argument.” Not you, not me.
I am not defending any principle. I am stating facts - like, “I feel warm.” Would you argue with that, hoping to win the “argument”? Why would I argue with anybody about my feelings?
Oh geez… I suspected that you might say that. I thought, surely not…
So what you want for people to do is present to you a statement that they believe is true, but they believe is false.
Seriously?
Okay, how about this one;
“I believe that the foundation of what Bodhimalik is trying to convey is erroneous.”
Now, I honestly believe that. So honestly, is that statement true?
Or I could reference the old standby;
“The statement is false.”
Is it true?
A Solipsist is someone who believes that all reality is merely created by the mind; there is no objective reality at all; what you think is all there is in existence.
I mean that I specialize in Rational Metaphysics wherein ALL existence is explained in detail.
Have you ever tried to work through a puzzle (perhaps a math problem) and found that despite thinking for a second that you were done with it, the final step didn’t work out because of some prior mis-step that you had thought was correct? You then go back and re-examine each step, finding no error, but somehow get to that same point again of still not getting the right answer or solution.
In such an experience, you believe each step was right but you can see that one of them must not be right. Thus you believe both that you are right about each step and that you cannot be right about all of them - at the same time.
No, I do not want people to present to me a statement that they believe is true, but they believe is false. That’s ridiculous.
Forget about the true part. All I’m asking is pretty simple. Tell me a thought you have that you don’t believe is true. Tell me a false thought that you have.
Do you have a thought, “the Bible is wrong”? If so, is it false? Do you have a thought, “I’d like some ice cream.” If so, is that false?
Understand?
You know, I’m going through this same thing with another and it just occurred to me. Maybe you two don’t know what a thought looks like. That’s a very common phenomena and it’s common because we never have occasion to look at what we are thinking. I’m sorry I didn’t catch that earlier.
If this is true and you still don’t know what one looks like, please ask me for guidance.
You say, “I believe that the foundation of what Bodhimalik is trying to convey is erroneous.” Now, I honestly believe that. So honestly, is that statement true?"
If you think that, then I guess it is true. You are the only person in the world who knows whether it is true or not. I have to take your word for it.
You saw the bird on the wire just then. You saw yourself whether or not that thought was true.
You say, “A Solipsist is someone who believes that all reality is merely created by the mind; there is no objective reality at all; what you think is all there is in existence.”
That’s me. The response I promised is that, that “philosophy” comes down through the ages because anyone that can see real reality - what “is,” always sees the same thing.
[quote=“Bodhimalik”]
In order to simplify things, I am going back to where we started.
I am stating this and nothing else. “Every thought that we have, we believe to be true.” Period
I then state this and nothing else: “There is a way for each person individually to prove this to themselves and they cannot prove it to anybody else.” Period.
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I mentioned that when a number of people “got” that free will did not exist, some were angry, some were sad, some were joyful. It’s not the “no free will” that causes a feeling of fatalism. It’s whatever a person creates from the fact. If you feel that “no free will” is a hopeless situation, that doesn’t mean that it is. It’s just your creation. Things are still as they were before I posted this thread. You haven’t lost a thing.
I was one of the joyful ones at this news. To me, it meant no guilt, no responsibility, just relaxing into what "is’ I find it a nice place to be. Took me back to my childhood. Think on that.
And good luck
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Some well placed fatalism works wonders. It’s like knowing when to retreat when you’re in battle. So yes, I know what you’re saying. You’ve got to know when to accept things. I just wouldn’t take it too far.
It’s not as if I chose to think that there is no free will. It’s something I have seen as fact. And that fact chooses for me to believe that, not the other way around.
I never believe anything that I have not seen as fact, starting with, “existence occurs.” I know that because I “see” that “I” exits - and I do not believe that there is an “I” here to exist. I don’t believe that because I have seen facts to suggest that “I” do not. Other people exist? That one is put on hold too. I put things that seem to me that I have no facts for, as hypothesis. That way I can operate in this illusionary world like others do. But I watch very carefully what my beliefs are. Because those things are “real.”
“No free will” is not something I wish to convey to anyone, especially. It’s a small part of an attempt to reveal the magic impossibility of our existence. Just one of the billions of happenings that are impossible to be. Existence itself is “impossible,” yet here we are!
Sorry about my rant and rave thing up there about the way I look at my beliefs that you didn’t mention wanting to hear about. I couldn’t help myself.
Isn’t it your perception that leads to such belief in “facts”?
Isn’t it also perception that leads to the belief that perception itself is flawed, and thus the “facts” as well?
The primary tool in magic is the flaw in perception.
The perception of the impossible is evidence for the impossible flawlessness of perception.
I have no stake in this. You made a claim- “everything you think is true”. I just showed you why the claim is false- something you specifically challenged readers of your thread to do. You DID ask for it. I didn’t do so in the specific way you demanded, by why does that matter? I still did it in a logically rigorous and simple-to-explain way. I showed that your principle doesn’t work, like you requested.
And now your reply is that we aren’t arguing?
Why obsess over something strange and rhetorical like that, instead of the point which you raised in your own thread, which I am attempting to address?
And now you’re trying to insult me? I’ve been posting on this forums since 2002- this fact is listed, right there on your screen, under the picture of the snake. Is your position that I’ve been doing so since I was 2 years old? Is this how you always respond when somebody counters one of your positions (as you requested) in a sincere and definitive way?
What have I done to anger you?
Mull that question over a while.
Well, that’s not what you said before. what you said before was, every thought we have is TRUE. You’ve changed things.
My response is this- if by ‘thought’ you mean ‘thought’, you are wrong. I can think all sorts of things I think are false- I just thought about their being an elephant in my apartment, for example. So yes, people have thoughts they don’t believe all the time- especially fiction writers.
Now, if what you mean by ‘thought’ is ‘belief’, then what you’re saying is “You never have a belief you don’t believe”. While that’s true, it’s the worst kind of true- a tautology- a play on words that can’t help but be true, and conveys no information whatsoever.
I never said that was a false statement, you never MADE that statement until just now. I was responding to the statement you made before- about all our thoughts being true.
One of the important roles of argument is precisely this kind of clarification. If you are going to refuse to argue with people at every turn, you need to make sure you’re saying what you mean the first time.
You are not nearly good enough at this to be as arrogant as you are. You aren’t stating facts, you are giving opinions, and then hiding behind ‘these are facts’ as a way to avoid confronting other people’s opinions.
What is it you think this website is for, by the way?
