Your kitten situation is a useful one to use here. You talk about denying it life as though this denial would be a positive act on your part. This wording creates the false impression that spastics are like weeds; that they survive and that we have to decide whether or not to dig them up. On the contrary, spastics draw a wealth of effort, time, and money from the people burdened with their care. Often, the quality of life of the carer (and if it’s a family situation, the qualities of live of the other family members) sink to a level most of us couldn’t live with. So the question should really be, is my ongoing immense effort justified?
Interestingly in your case, you derive a kind of satisfaction from rearing that malformed kitten, so given the insulation from the outside world, maybe you should stay your course. It’s worth noting at this point that the only thing a spastic can give back to the world is this sort of gratification in the mind of the carer. To those who would cite this as a (weak) justfication for their existence, I say that those carers could get the same “hit” from caring for infants and/or the elderly and/or the sick.
Contributions takes many forms. Those that care for those that can’t care for themselves are they not producing? Those that train others to care for others are they not producing? Those that make the equipment medicines, foods, housings, educational tools, are they not producing? How many people would you unemploy and destroy for the sake of removing a thousand or two handicaps? How many people are tied to the care and well being of these handicap people? Are their jobs not valid? Are they less?
So because you see the one as a non producer you would remove the jobs of many? If you can tell me how that works for a more cohesive society, then you are nominated for the silver tongue award.
I don’t see all as non producers. you would deny them so that you could save a few bucks, You could remove them and make way for your perspective of correctness. Life is personall, all life should be seen as highly personal. I don’t want to live in a world where children are produced on an assembly line just to protect the species as it is.
Do you really want a colorless robotic human species? We are not just bodies , we are minds and souls. If a handicap person is taken for a horse ride do you realize its not a luxury for them it is educational. You find it entertaining but, for the person it is not wholly fun. They are learning mind and body control. boat rides teach and open up the mind to pathways of thinking and seeing. Museums and such are teach them to cope with other humans crowding around them. Plus more lessons than those that I name.These are lessons, not luxuries like they would be for us. Would you consider a classroom fun and entertaining or work?
What we are given by our handicapped far outweighs what we lose. Unless of course you are strictly financially minded.
These are our brothers and sisters. That they have to go through life different than we, does not negate this. They don’t get the luxuries and the sweetness we get, but, that does not mean they don’t cherish what they get any less? They have to work harder to solve 1+1, so you would cut their lives off for that?
I don’t want to live in a world where we put material resources before life and living. I don’t want to live in a world where someone being different is a crime against humanity.
The world is not a self-sustaining resource machine, the choice is quickly being taken away from us individually, socially and globally.
Utility is never a crime, if it is done for the benefit of the whole, and not a tool for self-serving interests of the few … which is what we have now, and which is going to burn out the planet before we sit up and take notice.
Ok so we the human species kill off a million or two or maybe more humans because they lack the ability to produce and use up precious resources. sound good? Lets go do it now. we all go out and start putting the knife to the throats of all that fit your description. Lets save those resources for the strong and healthy bodies. Lets kill as a society in the name of protecting the earth and our species. Lets rip the wombs out of every poor female so that they will not produce burdens. man what a wonderful bloody time we will have , we are protecting the world and species from… loss? We should be proud.
Yep this will really help us evolve and protect the world’s resources. What kind of knife is suggested? serrated or straight? Serrated should be preferred because, straight might not be sharp enough to get the job done right. We should start with the infants it will be easier to practice with them, you know get an efficient techique down pat. Slice those babies throats. Heck the clean up will give someone something productive to do.
These people are exerting themselves, not producing things.
Are you seriously suggesting that the drugs industry and the care industry would struggle for business if there were no spastics?? The only people who would lose their jobs in a spastic-free world would be the people who care for them directly, and these people would 1) be loving it, because their burden would be lifted, and 2) be well capable of finding something else to do in life (eg, nurse).
Whoa, hold up. I don’t think that removing the spastics would leave behind a “colorless robotic human species”!! What sort of a species do I want? A normal, healthy one, same as everyone else.
They probably don’t realise what’s happening to them… And since when was horse riding a valuable life skill for a spastic?
I’m not laughing.
I have knowledge of “education programs” for the handicapped, and belive you me, it’s nothing more than them sitting around while smiling women do things in front of them, such as colouring in and cooking. Did you know that they get certificates too, praising them for “their” work? It’s a farce.
They give next to nothing, and take a mountain. Yes, money, but also time, effort and love. A little known fact is that spastics are the world’s leading experts at unreciprocated love.
So were the men who were responsible for the 7/7 bombings.
Most of them can’t conceive 1 + 1, let alone solve it.
The grand finale of what I hate to say was a BS post This is absolutely typical of the “pro spastic” camp - a vast, irrational strawman. In supporting spastics, you’re advocating the existence of an underground world of untold misery. And what the f***'s that line about “being different is a crime”? You make me sound like a Ku Klux Klan man!!
Interesting hyperbole, and exactly the kind of social attitude that has placed us within 50 years of global desolation.
Correcting a long standing social error is neither easy nor pleasant. That’s why we can be certain that your style of social attitude with prevail. Habituation.
I wonder if we be able to breath and eat our habituations once the world’s resources are gone?
Then do it. correct it the way it will benifit earth and society. What i said is only hyperbole because I put the cards on the table in a true position. Face it, that is what is going to have to happen if you want your society and to save the earth now. you will have to murder millions. do it. Bloody your hands. kill the infants. Don’t suggest others do it, take responsibility and bloody your hands for your society.
I can’t speak for the Brits here, I’m not that familiar with their media … but just what the f* do you think the American media shoves down everyone’s throat, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year non-stop???
Superior: model beautiful
Superior: thin
Superior: muscled
Superior: professional title
Superior: unending consumer ability
Superior: investments
Superior: material ownership
Superior: religious affiliation
Superior: social notoriety
Find a place where it isn’t true, everyone wants the superior “model of life”, and having thoroughly bastardised it to fit the material desires, we can dislike ugly and deformed, we just can’t speak of it, especially in the factual context of its drain on society.
It isn’t about inferior v superior, it’s about a subset of people whose minds didn’t form properly (as is objectively measurable). If by “superior” you mean biologically normal, then yes, I do want those people to live.
I’m sure Mastriani and Satyr will join me in noting that we’re dealing with a more general issue here: the failure of Homo sapiens to adequately adjust himself to the new world he’s created for himself using his ingenuity. Overpopulation and obesity are two good examples of the problems in this area. The crux of the issue is the hopeless inability of man to administer necessary treatments to himself.
There are dark centuries ahead of us, and we only have ourselves, collectively, to blame. We’re living in a golden age, relatively speaking.
C.S. there is no real logical argument against man culling man. The only arguements against are because of individualality. You would create a superior species by killing off individuals. Ok fine. But, accept the blood and the outcome for what it is don’t hide behind justifications. It is superior Vs. inferior.
In starting down such a path you create a hive of perfection. No room for those that deviate either naturally or by circumsatnce. No room for mercy or caring. You take only the physical and mental best of the species and slaughter the others. This includes the infants. This means millions must die. Take responsibility for those deaths make those deaths worth something by never forgetting their anguish as your terminate them for the greater good. Then perhaps you might just be able to create some kindness and mercy in the society that you wish.
Pushing for superior vs. inferior. It is KKK It is Nazism It is the path towards genocides and hive mentality. Society makes laws that are stepping stones to other laws. That is why certain laws should never be placed. Once started you open the door to things that we have not seen yet, but, can only imagine. Once imagined someone will push to do it. And you gave them the leverage and the law to do it. As for my individuality well, I would rather put a bullet to my head then suffer the society of superiority. Sounds dramatic but its not, it is a resolution.
A colourful post, KW. First of all, I’m not asking for perfection. I want to retain the manifold diversity of the human race, but without including those that either shouldn’t exist or are a menace.
Secondly, even though I haven’t actually got on yet to the issue in any detail of what the world should do about spastics, your deduction that I’d support a compassionate euthanasia program is correct. I do accept that there’d be a significant number of terminations, but think of it like this. When a couple have a baby, they’re choosing one of literally billions, so even a regular conception is a kind of mass-genocide of sperm. Of all the trillions of possible (normal) babies a couple could have throughout their life, why o why settle for a malformed one?? Sure, the euthanasia bit would be tough for them, but in the long run it’d be the better course of action by a mile!
You seem convinced that the introduction of measures like these would pave the way for further and worse “killings”. I don’t think so. Look at the euthanasia they do in certain European countries, and look at the isolated instances of it in your own country - where’s the escalation?
Euthanasia has not been mandated. Once it becomes required, you open those doors. Your intentions are fine I respect it. But I see two paths on mandated euthanasia. It is one of those paths that I have been talking about. the other path follows what you wish.
50/50 chance. At what point will it be controlled? If it is this line that is drawn well really this line looks so much more healthy. since we already started this we may as well do this.
See, it happens in increments. Humanity is not at all able to control lines…
I have no problems with certain voluntary euthanasia. In fact I have a living will.
C.S., It is the laws for killing that scare the hell out of me. Yes we allow capital punishment which I am all for. But , what crimes did the innocents do that they must be killed?
It takes just one mandated law for severe mental retardation to be euthanized, then it will go to the mild, then the physically handicaped etc… What happens then? You can come up with viable and reasonable reasons for it all. Thats the easy part.
It is real easy because, you already set up a precedent for these laws.
There is half a chance it won’t come to that. but, if you don’t think about that horrible path and you can rest easy at night not thinking about that path, then perhaps it should not be chanced, for you already lost humanity.
Although I’m certain you can see that my argument for superior v. inferior, is predicated upon the pervasive social image cast on us all.
Where are the rest of the social members with this level of lucidity?
Gads!!!
Certainly you aren’t attempting to posit, to assert, to put forth, that in the dream of social unity, social cohesion, society above all else, that we … we … we actually take ownership of our actions as individuals, and resort to ideologies of responsibility and accountability for all …
I should think you quite mad, sir, if that be your intent.
KW: I concede that the regimes that have historically done what I’m suggesting have tended to be evil, with these things being the thin end of a usually-large wedge, but I still don’t see the necessary logical upward progression.
C.S what would the gentlemen and women that started existing Gov’ts say about them right now? Would they be pleased or pissed? USA has long loved our constitution, but it has been so mangled by so many amendments that it is forever lost. What one starts another finishes. You may have a goal that you see in the east, but, those that follow you, may see it in the north. Good intentions have spawned many tragedies because others change the intent to suit their needs.
Unless you can secure the direction in stone. What you propose is highly dangerous, just as dangerous as the path we are on now. I don’t trust humans.
Your intentions which are honorable, may make the Nazi horror a small hiccup in history.
I like Mas’s quote here
He seems to think I advocate staying the course. I do not. i agree that we need exactly social unity. and responsibility on an individual basis. But,
we seem to disagree upon certain mandates that are being put forth in order to acheive this.
Here In the US we are having arguments and fights over mandated capital punishment. it is going on in other countries too. It does not stir up the people too much after all we are speaking of the worst of the worst of society being euthanized. they commit hideous crimes. If there is turmoil over capital punishment, what do you think will happen with a world mandate of euthanasia for innocents? You can’t do it.
The most you can do and the best you can do is remove the rights of procreation. Young people at a specific age get reversables. People must pass biological tests and be financialy stable to breed with their chosen mate. one child and then they get snipped.
This will cull with out euthanasia on massive proportions. Allow those that live to live. It is slower but, it will halt a possible dangerous madness.
I’ve talked about this in the past.
The difference between genetic evolutionary change, to an environment, and memetic or social change, as it affects the environment, is what causes many of the human problems ingenuity and technology is supposed to cure or help us deal with.
We believe we are living in a progressive world when most innovation is meant to deal with the consequences of past innovation.
A game of catch-up.
One consequence is that we become or make ourselves blind to it.
Because the mind is primarily concerned with survival it selectively interprets or ignores or pushes into the unconscious what might threaten its overall well-being.
It’s a kind of self-censorship, we can call denial.
Stupidity is another method. either by choice or by nature the most obtuse and thick are and remain immune to most of the disturbing and often unavoidable parts of existence.
I also believe stupidity, or selective reasoning and knowledge (specialization), is promoted by culture as a means of harmonious integration and cohesion.
This is absolutely typical of the “pro spastic” camp - a vast, irrational strawman. In supporting spastics, you’re advocating the existence of an underground world of untold misery. And what the f***'s that line about “being different is a crime”? You make me sound like a Ku Klux Klan man!!