Standard or Esoteric Interpretations?

which interpretation of Christianity do you believe is more accurate?

we have the traditional standard interpretation of the Bible, as the New and Old Testaments, to give us a description of Christian doctrine and belief. and in terms of pre-Christianity regarding the Abrahamic tradition we have the Torah. these are taken as literal truth by “strict” believers, such as for example the Catholic faith. i dont know much about Judaism but i assume at least a faction of followers take the Torah as the literal revealed word of God.

on the other side we have the so-called esoteric or ‘alternative’ interpretations. for Christianity this would include the Gnostic Texts, in part recovered within the Dead Sea Scrolls. this would include missing books and writings of the traditional Bible which did not make it into the modern king james version, such as the Gospel of Thomas. also in this category we would include cultic or occult lore, as well as more modern fringe interpretations such as the divinity of Mary or Jesus’s lineage. in the Judaic tradition on the esoteric side we would have the Kabalah as pre-dating the Torah, and giving an alternative version of Abrahamic traditions and Old Testament stories such as the Creation.

which versions do you think are more accurate in terms of actual history? of course we cannot know for sure what took place thousands of years ago, but based on what youve read or feel about these various interpretations is it more justified to take the modern Bible as descriptive of Christian doctrine or should we look at the Hermetic occult traditions, which the Kaballah, Poemandres et al. would indicate that Jesus was an initiate in? it does seem possible that Jesus was a member of this fraternal Order of Magicians and that the New Testament accounts are either doctored or invented to some degree, in that they contradict the older esoteric lore. but then again standard belief is far more heavily in favor of traditional modern interpretations, taking the Bible as mostly literal fact.

is there really any way to know for sure how the original events of the founding of Christianity and before unfolded… or are we just left to “believe” whatever we were taught as kids, or for those of us who are more thoughtful or inquisitive, whatever gospels or dogmas that suit our present psychological needs most? how could we really tell which Biblical interpretations, if any, are more historically accurate and truthful?

Well look at it this way: What is the truth? It is whatever you end up agreeing with. All these alternative interpretations require that you make a choice. None on their own can relieve you from doubt, so you have to ask that question to yourself.
Now God is just a “person”, so to speak, that we’ve never really met. We have all these “letters” that were supposedly written by “him” or “dictated” by “him”. Those that bring up these letters asks of us to believe that they are telling us the truth and that these letters contain a true picture into the character of this “person”. But the letters available do not harmonize with one another entirely, so that a person from the audience, such as yourself, if left with a choice. The question left is “What do YOU want to believe?” Because nothing in those letters could determine what you believe everything is a choice for you. For example:
1- What makes you think that this dude is into writing? What could be keeping him from just speaking one on one with everyone instead of with these redactors?
2- But if he was into writing and wanted editors then the question becomes why biographers instead of autobiography? After all, he did become flesh? Why leave no document, after centuries of vigorous literary output, other than a drawing on the sand?
3- But if we still believe in that he actually had biographers, then we are left to choose which biographer should we believe as telling the truth and which is just a calumnator. All of them sympathetic towards him, but unsympathetic towards each other. Which one sounds more like the truth and how do I pick one above the many?
I’ll tell you how: We have prejudices and suppositions about God as we do of any other “person”. “He” seems to be X to me and that book, that scripture, that belief, that religion that reinforces that which I already am more ready to believe echoes within me and sounds more truthful than that which challenges me and makes me have to think and even puts doubt in me. I want the question about this “person” settled, so if “He” is or seems to be “X” to me then expectedly the scripture that speaks more of X gets my vote and becomes my “truth”.

What do you believe God is actually like?
Answer me that.

I believe there are different vartiations of interpretation. I have found from talking to parishoners, pastors and dilettantes, that no two I have come across are the same. Standard and esoterical interpretations even bleed into one another.

For instance, my pastor who has worked in NASA and now in AT&T as a computer tech, believe the world is approx. 6,000 years old (he believes it was Created old). So, his could fall into the standard literal vein. Yet, from converstions I have had with him concerning the Bible, some of his thoughts delve somewhat inot the mystical side. That’s fine with me. It is the foundation of his faith and how he interprets Scripture.

I find our pastor to be stable of mind and upright in his thinking. He had an accident where he suffered permanent back pain from lower nerve clusters being severely damaged. He went to a myriad of specialists for the pain, but none could help. Through this period, he had been prophesied to that he would become a pastor. Well, this took him aback a little, because he didn’t view himself as a leader in the Church.

Then, during a service he went to the altar for healing for his back pain. Miraculously, he was healed. Before that that accident I would like to add he was an avid bike rider til that point. He then went to a nerve specialist to see what happened and the doctor related to him the damage was still there. The doctor announced he should have been in great pain and could not explain the lack of it. So, to try his new found health, he went back to long distance bike riding and suffered no pain since.

As a consequence he became the pastor of our church after there was a retirement of our former one. This is the reason I think he falls into both models. He is pragmatic, but allows for God to be mystically Omnipotent to him.

I on the other hand, I think this world could very well be billions of years old. My thought is that it was Created by God and since time (in my opinion) has no constraints on Him, there is no reason it couldn’t have been simmering that long. I think some animals have evolved to an extent to acclimate for their possibly forced changes in environment. I also believe there is a God and and satan. I take some things literal in the Bible, some metaphorically, some allegorically and some in the parable sense.

What it boils down to for me is Christians believe there is Christ that was sent for our salvation and leads of into some tangents through doctrine due to different Churchs creeds.

I hope this response was on topic to your OP.

Any answer to that question would be, according to the Judeo-Xtian tradition, ‘idolatry’.

I just finished this exact exploration of that exact question.
I cannot possibly even post what the heck I found and why I arrived at my conclusions perfectly as I wish that I could that I arrived at because the amount of research we are talking about spans the course of about 16 years, and came full head very recently with a massive amount of research that was based from those 16 years of personal study by applying to all forms of Christianity that I could get my hands on, and studied Judaism and Greek, and Roman Christendom, also including Russian Christianity and Britannian “Pagan” religion and the influence of Roman and Spanish Christianity on those Britannian “Pagan” religions; and relevant perspective of Chrisitianity and Spirituality dualism by the followers of the Britannian “Pagan” religion.
Also with a keen interest and long term of more than 20 years of learning about early 1 and 2nd century middle east history, as well as a teaching in Greek, Latin, and Aramaic Biblical translations; as to an understanding of Hebrew and Hebrew law and life from around the same span.
Along with a dabbling of about a year in Egyptian culture, art, and language, and by relation, Sanskrit.
Patched together with a long running interest in the Scientific exploration of the historical man, evolution, and social anthropology (specifically in expression of the society; the nature of what a human does as a result of what has occurred).

With all of this, I found that the closest concept of anything resembling what was authentically as close to what we can tangibly hold as a direct relative of what those that actually followed Jesus thought completely removes 96+% of the established New Testament canon, and does so, so strongly, that it actually cause historical ripples that arrived in forms of banishment, and ostracism.
Luckily, the group primarily existed outside of the mainstream Christendom, obviously (Egypt to Judea in 3rd Century Roman culture? Not a major thoroughfare for Christendom oddly enough), so they didn’t seem to care much or were affected…in fact, they were so little effected largely that they pretty much faded out and died because they were so passive.

It wasn’t any group we really know or have a name for even…we know of an extended group that wasn’t a follower of Jesus directly, but was, for all intents and purposes, one of the first external “Churches” (meaning, people who followed Jesus’ teachings but were not directly near him) and that they definitely would have been because they had a trade route in the belt to Judea where they would collect their instructions from going to see Jesus, transcribing such from the discussions and taking them home; after which, reteaching them would occur in form like modern sermons…everyone wanted to know what the latest update was from what Jesus had taught now.

Eventually, this was all wrapped up and written down much later on after Jesus because obviously there was interest in wrapping up everything that the man had taught…nothing was going to be said new, so now you write it all down in an agreed and more solidified manner.

Here, we have no direct copy of this, yet we do have descriptions of it.
We have many competing accounts of it actually, but there are a couple primary things about it that let us know some core concepts about it.

The book is called the Gospel of Hebrews (among a dozen other names, including even such names as, “The Gospel of the Apostles”, which bears little in name to the one I supplied, yet they refer to the same content), and it was written by the Ebionites, and counter to the common thought and myth that they were part of the Gnostic’s…the original Ebionites, were in fact, not.

A few things are known about this Gospel from this extremely early group of Christians that existed in the Egyptian and Judea belt line (as opposed much farther away and completely culturally different and much later adopter, the Greek and Italian Roman region):

  1. They lacked any account of an immaculate conception; some accounts claim Mary and Joseph are simply never mentioned.
  2. They lacked any account of Jesus being Crucified at all, let alone raising back from the dead.
  3. The writing closely resembles much of what Mathew resembles very early on and yet nothing close to what we understand Mathew to be (I will explain why Mathew is not really even correct as it is compared to what it originally was…whatever that was in 3rd Century Roman Culture)

These are the principle understandings of the book.

But what about dates?
Well…the dates are, in my opinion, dead wrong.
The dates would have you understand that what Paul wrote is first, and then the Gospels came later; Mark being the first.

This is actually, just dead wrong.
Here’s my case as to why:

Why would Paul…a non Jew that never even met Jesus, be the first person to ever write about Jesus, when there are earlier groups of Christians than Paul by a century?

I performed my own research following one premise:
Cultural buildings that have been around for an extremely long time cannot be dated by their external layer because what tended to happen in these cases (like the Great Wall of China and much of Egyptian architecture) was that the structures were built and then rebuilt on top of; therefore, the original under-layer is the earlier time, and not the external layer.

As such, I considered that the Gospels could very easily be earlier, and seem later because the last date that they were altered is the version we have and that is the most complete list of collected content for that text that we have; therefore, the established date.

To me…it is like imagining the Great Wall of China was completely destroyed, and then rebuilt much later out of the pieces that were destroyed and new material, and then determining that the oldest piece that we find was the real date for the original completed form of the Great Wall.
You have no idea based on that.

Instead, what you can do, is look at the entire Great Wall (if it had been completely destroyed and rebuilt, in part, with it’s older contents) and decide that the older parts would have more of the older pieces in them than the newer spots because there was more content available that was older.

Now, coming from this angle of thought, I decided that the best way to tell would be to collect a list of every book in the New Testaments textual errors and compare them against each other.

The idea was, that the oldest book that I find in the Bible, in theory, should actually be the book with the most textual errors as it would have been around longer and therefore would have been altered and reprinted more often than any other text, leaving room for the possibility that one has to factor how provocative the content was.
Lower controversial content should be expected to have very few errors while highly controversial content should be expected to have many more errors.

The end result, if the Ebionites Gospel of the Hebrews is the correct direction of the closest to the original understanding of Jesus, then their book should line up with Matthew or Mark (because Mark, btw…also completely lacks the same features that the Gospel of the Hebrews lacks, and is currently established as the oldest Gospel) for errors.

The end result was that Paul’s writings contained dominantly among the least in errors; Revelations had the second to highest amount of errors, and Matthew took the cake blowing away all other books of the Bible in terms of errors, with only Revelations coming even close to matching.
Considering Revelations controversy, no wonder.

But Matthew?
This is a book directed at the Hebrews, not the Romans, and about as boring as it gets when you remove the immaculate conception and crucifiction; actually very much like Mark in taste without those two things.

So there’s very little controversy surrounding Matthew…it was always a given.

So that means this is the book most altered than any other book in the Bible, which means it’s most likely to be the oldest, and that means before Paul, and so that means that it must be the ancestor of the much earlier Ebionite Gospel of the Hebrews.

This meant, the original (as close to as we can get) group of Christians did not believe Jesus was divine in any way at all, but instead referred to him as their Rabbi.
They, like many others, followed their specific Rabbi’s particular concentration on the interpretation of the Law.

Ergo, I concluded, Jesus was not divine.
How could he be and not be remarked on as such by those that traveled to see him and listen to what he taught?

Man simply does not work that way; we are not silent on something of this belief caliber for 1 and a half Centuries and then suddenly robust about it if it is observed directly.

There is no forensic circumstantial evidence to suggest this.
When a very large rock falls into the water, we can see that it has because of the ripples left behind. The smaller ripples in other locations are easily understood as smaller rocks that fell into the water as a result of the large rock falling.

What lacks is the ripples for such a large Rock falling the that has the properties of divinity; it has the wrong weight to that Rock for the ripples that are seen.
Instead, the ripples that we see are of a smaller Rock; a Rock that did not include the properties of divinity.

Much later we see a big landslide that comes with a large amount of weight to it that did indeed include divinity, but the original Rock that fell that led to the land slide did not have the weight to it to include the properties of divinity.

Therefore, I personally, in this question that you are asking, say that the one thing we can be certain about, is that Jesus was not divine to the original followers of Jesus that wrote about him.

Therefore, for me, Jesus is no longer capable of being divine in my mind according to all of this that I have searched over and considered.

This, however, does not remove God.
Nor does this reduce Jesus’ value, just the role.

At any rate…wow…sorry for the long post.
That’s my take on the subject; sorry for the length.

The choice of either standard or esoteric interpretations is really a choice between theology and mysticism, since theology provides the standard interpretation. It must be quite obvious that the nicely structured explanations do not fit and that there other explanations needed. Also the fact that Marks Gospel clearly poses the questions, “Who was this?”, “What happened here?”, “Why did this tragedy happen?” leaves us still uncertain after the theologians have explained everything.

You may have noticed that I have been reading one of Alan Watts earlier books, written during his time as an Episcopal priest, which is quite interesting, since he was a Buddhist at heart, despite promoting the “religion of no religion”. His explanation for the development of the Christian Church and the highly contradictory phases along the way appeals to me the most and points to something that many have said, that there is a “necessity of mystical religion”. According to him, Christ and the Apostles came at the end of an epoch and took the Jewish Religion in a mystical direction.

The Roman Church, having gained power took up this heritage in a childlike and naïve manner, not having the depth – and especially not possessing the experience – of their predecessors. The interpretation of the New Testament was somewhat blunt, taking on a more philosophical direction and away from Jesus and Paul, who, you may remember said (1Co 3:18-19):
“Let no one deceive himself. If anyone thinks to be wise among you in this age, let him become foolish, that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it has been written, “He takes the wise in their own craftiness.””

The message was that God had incarnated in this fallen world and taken the Son of Man to the Ancient of Days, that is, he had shown his love for a fallen world – a sharp turn away from those proposing that the divine didn’t want anything with sinful flesh. But the naïve Church used morality rather than salvation as their message; they chose redemption by good deeds rather than acceptance as we are. Of course the reactionary and “puberty” of the Reformation overthrew some of the immature assumptions of the ruling theology, but its intransigent reactionaries threw the baby out with the water and initially caused the literalism that led to the fundamentalism of our day. These theologians too couldn’t “become foolish, that they may become wise” as Paul advised them.

If you realise that Gnosticism was generally united in the teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world, then you will understand that the teaching of the Incarnation denied this, maintaining that (Joh 3:16) “God so loved the [material] world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Mystical texts are part of the Bible, and although the Kabbalah only really became the movement it is after the dispersion, of course its roots go back further.

No, there is no way to know for sure. However, once we have been opened up for the mystical truth, the light finds its way through and assures by experience. Christianity is a mystical faith that grew out of the wisdom of its day in Judaism, but throughout the ages, the naïve would dispose of those who were given wisdom from above, because they felt threatened by it. The question is whether we have reached the time in which we can grasp the real Gospel, and become “Blessed, the pure in heart!” and shall see God.

Shalom

Bob – =D> Brilliant!

:blush: aw shucks … you do know how to embaress a man … :smiley:

Shalom