Star Trek: Voyager

I would like to have a discussion about Star Trek: Voyager, specifically, the Series Finale Endgame, but it’s going to be a lengthly post that I do not want to type without first verifying that there is someone familiar with the series on here. So, is there?

I’m familiar with the series from about five years ago, I haven’t seen the series finale, but I’ll definitely read and respond to your post if you write it. It was a very interesting series that raised many philosophical questions.

I watched every episode of Voyager, DS9, Next Generation… I’m sure I’m not the only one on here :stuck_out_tongue: What aspect of the finale do you care to discuss?

I’m glad this place is so well-rounded!

Here’s the problem:

In the final scene with the Borg Queen, the Borg Queen tells Admiral Janeway that if the Borg Sphere kills Captain Janeway that Admiral Janeway will not have lived to go back in time and guide Captain Janeway through the nebula and, “None of this would have happened.” In my opinion, the Borg Queen’s reasoning is completely illogical (not that time travel is logical) which would otherwise be fine, except you’re talking about the Borg who are not supposed to be illogical. I have thought of four scenarios and want to see which one you guys agree with:

The only thing that we are focusing on, here, is what the Hell was the Borg Queen talking about:

1.) The Borg Queen is right, but the result will necessarily be Eternal Recurrence.

-Captain Janeway is killed by the Borg Sphere, therefore, Admiral Janeway cannot go back in time to guide Captain Janeway through the trans-conduit because Admiral Janeway never lived at that time. The result of this, however, is that time simply, “Resets,” back to the time prior to Admiral Janeway ever making contact with Captain Janeway.

The obvious problem here is that Captain Janeway will now simply live the events that would have occurred had she not been interrupted by Admiral Janeway. Seven of Nine will die, Chakotay will die, Tuvok will lose his mind, and she will become an Admiral with absolutely no knowledge of having ever gone back in time. She will then (as Admiral) go back in time to try to get Captain Janeway through the trans-conduit. The same scenario will play itself out in the same way and, once again, Captain Janeway will end up dead and time will, “Reset,” again to a time prior to Admiral Janeway’s interference. Seven of Nine will die…

In any event, the Borg Queen seems pleased to impart this information on Admiral Janeway in their last moments, so this could not possibly be what she meant! If it was, then the Borg Queen would certainly realize that she is destined to be infected by Admiral Janeway every other time cycle for all of eternity!

2.) The Borg Queen is right and ???

-The Borg Queen is right that Admiral Janeway cannot go back in time to help Captain Janeway if the latter is killed and cannot become Admiral Janeway. The Borg Queen could express satisfaction that the Borg somehow survive (and she is replaced by a new Queen) except for one little problem, the Borg Queen said, “And none of this ever happens.”

It seems that somehow the Borg Queen might be thinking that they will return to a time in which Admiral Janeway, as such, would never have existed but somehow, Captain Janeway is still dead!?

I’m sorry, but I can’t wrap my head around any scenario in which this could ever possibly be the case. The worst-case scenario is that everyone would just return to a time prior to Admiral Janeway’s interference which would only be three days prior to this event when Captain Janeway decided to get the Hell out of the Borg trans-conduit. I suppose this would be better for the Borg Queen than death and the annihilation (at least, partial) of the Borg, but it sure as Hell doesn’t seem like anything to be self-satisfied about given the peaceful smile on the Borg Queen’s face in her last moments. Captain Janeway still does not cease to exist in this scenario and you end up with the same Eternal Recurrence problem per #1.

Or, maybe she does, but I can’t figure out how.

3.) The Borg Queen is wrong, time is linear.

-This is my explanation, the Borg Queen’s statement, “And none of this ever happens,” is simply patently wrong. Admiral Janeway has already interfered with the time line, so there is no event after that point that can ever alter the interference. It is true that the Borg Sphere can still kill Janeway, who will then never become an Admiral, but it really goes no further than that. Admiral Janeway and the Borg Queen would still die in the explosion, and Captain Janeway would be dead, but it would have no other effect on time except Captain Janeway now ceases to exist and does not become Admiral Janeway.

If the demise of Captain Janeway does not cause the clock to go backwards (because she does not become an Admiral) the Borg Queen still dies and has no reason to feel smug.

I would also state, in support of this theory, that the Captain Janeway that does not take 23 years, but rather six years, to return to Earth has absolutely no reason to return to the time of three days before encountering the trans-conduit, even if she does become Admiral, because she has altered the course of the future in the desired manner. In other words, dead or alive, Captain Janeway does not return to that time so, “None of this ever happens,” is simply a completely erroneous statement.

The point is that Admiral Janeway did return and influenced events in a manner that they would not have otherwise been influenced had she not returned.

There is nothing that can change that at this point with exception to the Captain Janeway (who escaped) going even further back in time to prevent Admiral Janeway from going back in time, or the Captain Janeway (who escaped) going to the future to prevent then Admiral Janeway from going back in time, except then everything would basically change all around them and at least one of them would have to cease to exist. If Admiral Janeway does not go back in time, then Captain Janeway (on Voyager three days prior) could not know that Admiral Janeway did go back in time and would, therefore, have no reason to prevent an event that she did not know happened! If she does not prevent the event, then the Voyager that took 23 years to return still does take 23 years to return and you end up in another Eternal Recurrence type of scenario.

Basically, then, I would contest that the only way to prevent the events from ever taking place would be for the Captain Janeway who escapes the Borg trans-conduit (and that is if she escapes, which the Borg Queen obviously did not know or even believe) to go even further back in time and somehow fuck up the meeting between Admiral Janeway and Captain Janeway, except she would really have no reason to do that.

Admiral Janeway ceasing to exist in the explosion obviously cleaned it up.

or:

4.) The premise is nonsense, even if we accept time travel.

-Admiral Janeway simply could not have that kind of effect on Captain Janeway’s life because, in order to do so, she must exist to be able to go back and have that kind of effect on Captain Janeway’s life! Regardless of whether Captain Janeway lives or dies at the hands of the Borg Sphere, she is certainly not going to go back in time to repeat the events all over again, and even if she did, you just end up in another Eternal Recurrence situation.

The only difference here is that it is Eternal Recurrence of a positive scenario. Captain Janeway becomes Admiral Janeway and essentially goes back in time to beat the Borg Queen all over again and again for all eternity.

This makes no sense, though, because she lives in a timeline in which the Borg Queen was defeated, and now they have some kick-ass technology 30 years ahead of the game to go along with it! However, if Captain Janeway (that escapes the trans-conduit) chooses not to go back in time, then can that have an impact on those events if time is circular to the extent that the original Captain Janeway has to do the 23 years thing all over again for some more Eternal Recurrence fun?

Where the Fuck is U.S.S. Relativity when you need them?

Remember, the question is simply: What could the Borg Queen have meant? I’m going with #3, even though after all the assimilation of that many intelligent lifeforms you wouldn’t think the Borg Queen would make such a mistake.

In time travel stories they could so easily explain the scenario for the way different times interconnect, the scenario will always be arbitrary or made to fit the story but it will make the story easier to follow. Long ago I realized that there is a way to explain the scenario for the way the times interconnect in any time travel story no matter how paradoxical. Often it is very arbitrary because the writers didn’t even think it through themselves. I’ll get back to you with my best guess as to what the borg queen meant.

I liked Star Trek Voyager.

I think it’s just a sci-fi convention to play around with time like this. But you’re right - it didn’t make sense. You can’t say ‘none of this would have ever happened’, as it is happening, as it is self-evident that in at least one reality, it has already happened. Things only need to have happened once for them to have happened.

I guess this shows that even ultra-intelligent futuristic beings are only as intelligent as the people writing their scripts.

Brevel_Monkey,

I loved the last sentence!

I love Voyager! I like it almost as much as TNG because I think the TNG stories & enemies are better, but I think the interpersonal relationship development on Voyager is far more compelling. I’m afraid I couldn’t get into Deep Space Nine. I have Netflix, so every single Voyager and TNG is readily accessible to me until they decide to take them off. I haven’t seen every Voyager episode, so I’ve mainly just been hopping around, but decided to catch the finale. I only watched a few episodes when it had its run and didn’t like it then, for whatever reason.

I’ve counted fifteen paradoxes and continuity errors in the Series Finale, but that’s being nit-picky. The Borg Queen’s statement really jumped out at me as completely unacceptable, though, especially for a series finale. It’d be one thing if they made that kind of a screw-up just slapping together a mid-season episode, but the finale?

I was too young for all the other Star Treks. I’ve tried watching them but nowadays the effects are so outdated that they feel too retro and not really real enough. Voyager was on whilst I was growing up, though, and I really enjoyed it. I can’t wait for the next movie either, I hope its as good as the other one was.

I think that Star Trek is probably one of the most positive depictions of the potential future. Everyone still seems to have the same moral core and generally people are still fighting for what we would recognize today as justice. There’s this lovely ‘Federation’ spreading justice throughout the Universe. Even the design of the spaceship, with its sleek curves and polished surfaces, is utopian (compare to the 'bits hanging off everywhere designs of the Alien series). I kind of liked this.

I think that they tried really hard for a ‘big finale’, wanted to add too many twists and turns and eventually made it untenable.

I haven’t seen the finale and I didn’t understand all the details of the plot from your post. So I’ll just write the plot as I see it, correct me if I’m wrong.

Captain Janeway originally had a problem with a nebula, she survived but others didn’t. 23 years later she was an admiral and went back in time to guide Captain Janeway through the nebula without any lost lives. Now back in Admiral Janeway’s own time, the Borg Queen has found a way to get the Borg Sphere to go back in time (when I’m not sure, so I’ll account for the time before Admiral Janeway went back and after) and kill Captain Janeway. If it does ‘None of this would have happened.’ The original question was what was; what did the Borg Queen mean by that?

I’ll explain the rules of time travel in this Star Trek universe. They may be strange rules but I’m making them so that the Borg Queen could have meant exactly what she said. It’s seems confusing, but I think I have the logic down.

The present is the only ‘reality’, you can visit another time but once you leave it is gone (unlike if you visited another world, in which case it would still be there when you left, with people who remember your visit). The present can be changed through time travel, as I’ll explain, but it’s important to remember that the past and future can’t, so while the present can be changed over and over again by people time travelling, the people who do go into other times (‘past’ or ‘future’) won’t see evidence of other time travellers, the past and future that time travellers experience will always reflect a universe that never had time travel before.

The present, therefore, is the only place where people can travel in time. People from the present can travel in the future, but that future would never have had time travel capabilities (it would seemingly have the technology, it just wouldn’t work). The present will never get visitors from another time, but it can change to seem like it did.

The first time someone in the ‘present’ travels back in time: she goes to the ‘past’ (23 years), changes the course of history as she wants it (Admiral Janeway helping Captain Janeway get through the nebula). They then leaves the ‘past’, before she gets back to the present, the present changes to reflect the change in history, then the she replaces herself in the present, that way she will still remember going back in time and how the world used to be, and can appreciate it and talk about it.

Some people in the present may remember having a visit from the ‘future’, but that ‘future’ doesn’t exist. The present’s future, say in 100 years, would be exactly that. The ‘future’ they could travel to, like I said earlier, would be a ‘future’ that had no previous memory of time travellers.

The second time someone in the present travels back in time: let’s say it’s the Borg Sphere, which goes, say 28 years, in the ‘past’, where they kill Captain Janeway, they then leave the ‘past’, before they get back to the present, the present changes in a strange way (I made up this strange way just to make the Borg Queen’s statement accurate).

It doesn’t change to be as if someone in it (besides the actual time travellers, in this case the Borg Sphere) would remember having the Borg Sphere visit it 28 years ago. The present is now as if it had a ‘future’ which had a ‘future’. The present’s ‘future’s’ ‘future’ had visited it and killed Captain Janeway. The present’s ‘future’ then never had an Admiral Janeway to visit it’s ‘past’, which is the present, therefore the present is once again like it never had visitors from the ‘future’. (They actually could have, but in this case Admiral Janeway was the only one who was going to go back in time in that 28 years span, and she was killed.)

Keep in mind if the Borg Sphere had visited the ‘past’ at say 18 years earlier instead of 28 the results would be the same. If they arrived 5 years after the nebula, it would be in a ‘past’ that never had time travel visitors before. Therefore, the Captain Janeway they would kill would have never met Admiral Janeway from the past, and of course she would never become Admiral Janeway to go into the past.

Aah poop another star trek I missed, is there any way to get all episodes of them all? I missed the last few seasons of voyager and alot of the others.

I feel I am only partially familiar with time travel in the spiritual realms, specifically the mental plane.
I will explain how it looked to me.

The more causal forces there are, the harder it is to change a time line.
Causal forces are like roots which surround a time stream.
There are many time streams. The least causal stream is the easiest to effect or time travel in.
It’s easiest to accelorate or slow down time, but it is most hard to go back in time.
Going forward in time is simply accelorating a process that already exists,
but going back is changing and working against a strong force in an unnatural way.

One requirement for effecting the passed is being infinite, because the effect spreads across a huge or eternal amount of time. The consequences of influence remain forever in the time stream unless they are all removed somehow, and that is very difficult.

There are mild ulternative realities sprouting out of a main time stream which is usually what we effect if we try to effect a time stream.
The alternative realities are potential energy in relation to the whole timestream.

That’s most of what I seen, summarized.
Absolute time travel breaks reality fabric and causes failures in reality.

Things like this only work if there are infinite possible universes, or for every possible event there is a universe to which it will play out in. We’re talking trouser legs of time with infinite possibilities, or if you choose now to do this you are in a different trouser leg of time than that which happened before. That said it’s probably best to just say it’s all just not very well thought out and these: all things can happen given the infinite are not what the script writers tried to explain and thus ended up being paradoxical. Loved the series, but I don’t think it’s really possible to analyse logically without everything is possible.

Dan~, I’m not try to sound like a sceptic, but you seem to be claiming that you actually experienced time travel. I understood the logic of what you were saying to some degree. “The least causal stream is the easiest to effect or time travel in.” That seems to make sense except what is the criteria for one stream being less causal than the next? In my opinion the improtance of events are subjective, but I suppose if you beileve in objective importance then the stream with the least objective importance would be the least causal, or am I way off on my understanding of what you meant?

Tralix, I described in my post from the 12th how time travel can be described without an infinite number of universes. Like I said I don’t know the whole plot line, but from the way I described the plot as I understood it I think I made it very logical.

Let me clarify. Say in a show someone is wearing a red shirt, then the camera cuts to the person they are talking to, when it cuts back they are wearing a green shirt. You could say they changed shirts and no one mentioned it, but I’m inclined to simply call it illogical. In a story if a space ship can passes the speed of light, I’m not inclined to call that illogical or ask for an explanation, because the idea of a ship surpassing the speed of light flows very well. Time travel, also a hypothetical type of science fiction, does not naturally flow well, there is too many questions that arise. But, a time travel story that explains the scenario for time travel beforehand (such as having a character in the story be the “inventor” of time travel, and having him explain the logical issues to others in the story) actually flows well enough. Unless there is some logically fallacy in my post from the 12th I think I presented a story that flows very well.

The Borg Queen won the occurence actually. Any establishment of a timeloop would necessarily result in a entropy decay outside of the immediacy of the timeloop, in balance to the build-up within the timeloop. People don’t grasp that if we accept a finite area of space, and produce a continuum within it, you produce two event horizons. This isn’t paradoxial, ot happens everytime you run the shower with the drain open or shut, or flush the toilet. Scalar fields do this with fixed objects in the medium if they are funneling a current unbalanced. If you don’t grasp what I am saying,think about the need to crack a window during a tornado in the dumbest analogy I can muster.

A time loop is a million times worst, as the segregation will build OVER AND OVER AND OVER in every interval. Communications would break down, and odd quirky radiation would build up hazardously. Worst thing possible in physics is a timeloop, it’s a ticking time bomb.

Borg would adapt faster. More adaptibility to resistence. Which will give out first, Voyager’s communication and the crew’s capacity to avoid deadly exotic radiation and keep thier brain waves functioning, or the odd collection of the Borg technology? Eventually both sides would take heavy damage and the time loop would break down.

If it was nullified, avioded, the Borg would of beeen tipped off, and other queens would know what the federation’s game plan would be, because they would pick up on the futility of the attack, knowing damn well from the older timeline as evidence the older Jane upgrading everything and defeating this particular queen their plan didn’t work. The Borg showed this non-linear unorthodox cunning before in traveling in time to conquer earth. They would simply hold off and evaluate new technologies and techniques.

If Jane lost completely, then the borg would of known a likely outcome for how the war would turn out against the federation, and voyager never would of returned.

Only wise course of action for Jane would of to accepted time as it was. The fact of the matter is, Jane destroyed the Federation that day most likely… establishing a time loop is deeply unwise, especially when the enemy is a time travel capable species more resilient and adaptible than you are. Especially if the 29th century federation time cops can’t seem to find you on thier records as surviving… means a loop was mistakenly established… and they as well as everyone else likely noticed in relative time something fucking weird was happening at this point in Borg Space and Time eventually and neutralized the fuck out of it.

I don’t see a good scenerio coming out of this for Jane. Yes… she went on with her life. But the Borg are aware, and that time curvature is established. Everytime someone travels through time, interfering even remotely with her timeline, her one time time travel escapade becomes a timeloop of the greatest infinities. It was not wisely placed being at the center of the galaxy to boot.

Is it like putting too much air in a baloon! :smiley:

I didn’t get any of that Contra. :laughing:

If you have a finite limited area with many layers to it, and the various layers add up to a whole, but the interactions between the various layers are unequal to each other in force, you will end up with oddities of distributions qualitatively and quantatively.

Subspace in Sci-fiese is a layer of the universe, but is none the less a part of the universe. A layer interacting with another.

A timeloop is a infinate loop of energy always in play… it’s a continuum. Think groundhog’s say… the old Bill Murray Movie. It’s the idea you can have a infinate looping of at least one, if not a few layers of the universe repeating itself over and over and over again in a closed system. The issue is… it’s not a closed system, the loop, but only for certain layers. Other layers of the universe will behave without regard to the continuum in their own linear fashion as if the time loop wasn’t even there.

We can break it down to a assumption that the time loop only needs to cycle through once, and it’s a minimum energy exchange. Pav presented a scenerio that they had a paradoxial option that it could or couldn’t delete itself out of existence on the basis that logical paradoxes that can be discussed in a conversational format determine how physics behaves. It’s not a uncommon belief, Dr. Who’s last episode assumes much the same thing… he had the future of his current situation written out in a book in his hands, and was afraid of reading ahead as it wasn’t possible to read ahead and encounter bad news and then avoid it, as it produced a paradox. youtube.com/watch?v=FpjMcNUOz-I

In this case of Voyager, the emphasis on ‘consciousness’ being aware of reasoned and seemingly impossible paradox, a paradox that in and of itself once consciously realized would restructure the universe is only partially promoted. Only Janeway is fully aware of the fine line. However, I see the conscious element… as limited, and though it definately can be pivotal in changing the outcomes of physics… would at best only do it in THAT time line, and not the universe itself. The very fact she went back in time brings up a question of what happens to every other aspect of her universe. Take subspace for example. Would someone traveling back in time be able to send a message to someone else using ‘subspace’ and expect it to reach them within that timeline? Unlikely… as the subspace a timetraveler would be attached to would still most likely be, as it always had been… the subspace of their original timeline. If Janeway traveled back in time, sent a message in a changed universe… the message would arrive perhaps at the right coordinates, but in the OLD universe… cause her matter and energy is still connected to her old subspace. It’s a layer of the universe that doesn’t have to travel through time, as subspace has time aspects unto it’s own not beholded to E=MC2, as that’s the exchange rate for our layer.

However, I understand Star Trek attracks a less intelligent crown not so damn aware of this ramification, and it would seem illogical to them. A Message sent from point A to B is only to A to B, A and B being a unified time with the medium being of that time. It doesn’t occur to them that the medium allowing faster than light travel isn’t beholded to the time table… it’s holding to a time table universal (at least to the extent it can synchornize efficiently for communication between A and B predictibly) outside of the layer of the universe the loop is established in. In other time travel shows, such as Dr. Who, this isn’t glossed over as stupidly, it’s a core aspect of the time phenomena. There is a time to time when accounting for timetravel. Time Travelers still could travel everywhere in time, producing a million loops, and have a stardard to time based on a objective metric. Physics untimately decided time, and not the other way around.

Now… as the universe is a finite thing- possessing here and there… with a distribution of forces, a time loop requires generation to maintain itself like any flow or eddy. Questions of flows and eddies pop up to all these layers of the universe. You travel back in time once… okay. You think you DIDN’T create a time loop, as you made a difinitive change? Casuality says otherwise- as cause and effect is traced through time travel- and thus a exchange of energy. Entropy decay and increase of materials from OTHER LAYERS BECOME A ISSUE. If anyone else EVER IN THE UNIVERSE TRAVELED THOUGH TIME, AS THE UNIVERSE IS FINITE, YOUR ONE TRIP THROUGH TIME BECOMES A TIME LOOP. It’s because it’s gotta regenerate as well each and everytime someone else does so… it’s one of the side effects of living in a relativisic universe where time travel is supposedly possible. A one way trip becomes a loop… sorta akin to Nietzsche’s Eternal Return except without the entire universe being involved in the loop. Other aspects continue on… the other layers.

So… in the end, Janeway thinks she, as a person inhabting a body, is going back in time ONCE. In fact, it’s several times… as other timetravelers exist. Further adding to the complication, she’s going back in time to pull off a unorthodox strategem using time against a enemy who is likewise capable of time travel, is extremely adaptable, and ironically WON’T suffer the same level of loses as Janeway having to fight across the entirity of their space would effect. They end up with a understanding of Janeway’s Motives, her end tactics, and most importantly, the obvious ramifications of what will happen if they continue as such. The borg will undoubtedly not follow suit in the same way if something in that continuum where they are losing against Jane goes out of wack and allows for a breakout. They won’t go with the generic status quo of resistence is futile. We know the borg is capable of this kind of out of the box thinking from the star trek movie where they traveled through time to invade earth.

So… Janeway goes back in time… shows the borg what her ultimate intentions are. Eventually, physics will crystalize on certain levels/layers in her timeline from a maximum overload. It will be like… to many damn neutrinos building up, a massive possible number in a area because neutrinos don’t timetravel in the same way larger atomic structures do.

However, I suspect a timeloop wouldn’t make it to this point, as anything traveling through it, man or machine, would break down from the exotic physics long before it hurt this absurd maximum absolute time barrier. My whole point is… the Borg have the advantage given their biology… they will be more resistive to the weird forms of radiation. Though both the voyager’s crew and the borg comes from many species, the borg are the more mechanical, each individual being on average MORE DIVERSE than any given member of Jane’s crew in being able to possibly overcome some of the effects of the timetravel.

So… Jane travels though time. She returns home victorious. End of story for her. It doesn’t occur to her OTHER timetravelers travel through time as well, effecting the layers, her’s in particular in terms of causality that the other layers never broke with. (in ‘subspace’, for example, for all we know it might hold to Energy same as in ours… but not to matter at all, being E=SC2 over our E-MC2. There would be three layers of interaction, with at least one constant at place not beholded to any layer of causality seemingly contained within a given layer.) Someone else travels though time… and her timeline is slightly effected. Janeway’s one way trip thus becomes two trips. Someone else travels… it’s effected again. Someone else, again and again. Fuck… you can have a timetraveler who accidently kills all human life out during the stoneage… her timeline completely collapses… yet the causality still stands, and the entropy decay and buildup will continue in the void where NO TIMETRAVEL OCCURED, because it did indeed occur. Then you get another time traveler who cancels that previous time traveler who cancelled out that catastrophic timetraveler who killed off the cavemen, Janeway is back in action… and… what, fuck… those other layers still record causally every damn scenerio.

Eventually, there is going to reach a point where when Janeway gets it into her damn head to go back in time to save her few crew members who didn’t make it from the journey- though from the first time from her perspective, it will be the billionth time plus for the universe this wacky fucking woman went through time. All those exotic particles will be traveling though. Odd shit is going to be popping up, like radiation decay from impossible half-lives much, much older than the possiblity is for the age of the universe. Some of their computer systems might break down, as they just won’t work (like listening to a radio inside of a active microwave- nothing but inverference before it melts or catches fire)

In the end… Borg win. Every likely scenerio, Borg win, be the timeline nullified or strategem pursued (as they are known for doing just this) or Janeway seemingly successful. Borg won’t go extinct, they will approach the federation with new tactics. Janeway will travel back into time, and the fucking timeloop will implode on her biology.

Hence why I said doing it in the middle of borg space, which was at the center of the galaxy, is a bad idea. The peripherial would of been less dense, less matter and energy. More possibilities to travel back into time and coordinating other time travelers to balance out the ill effects.

Any time travel produces a curvature in time itself, and they remain relative in the archtecture of the universe.

However… I find time travel as mostly bullshit. It’s mostly based on the language and connective capacity of the left hemisphere running feedback loops with the possibilities and right and wrong of the right (hence why ethical and moral themes keep popping up in the center of such stories). It’s two different kinds of math trying to find a metting point, and skips other cognitive functions generally uninteresting to people with a interest in time travel or sci fiction concepts. I can see how, such in the end of the second season of Lexx how it’s justified… as the universe was at that point, atom to atom, mostly sentient… how cogntion can sit at the center of paradox of time (they did focus on eternal return and not time travel persay), but I am left looking at science fiction in general as a little too overtaken with the role of logic and reason, and out sense of self as a unit of physics, as having that much of a change. I find it even more disturbing that primates who never were at any point of their evolution smaller than a organelle or larger than a whale or brontasaurus (which is how large or small life has ever gotten here) thinks that our brain, designed for surviving through those terrestrial sizes, on the same planet… would produce a form of reasoning who’s paradoxes just happens to align perfectly with everything in the fucking universe. Maybe a lifeform the size of a galaxy ot the size of a sub-atomic particle might not hold to the idea that a logical inconsistency to the human mind matters all that much in determining the course of the physics of it’s universe, and outcomes of it’s life. We’re fucking monkeys who only just recently stopped swinging out of the trees and breaking flint… our brains are made for that. Time occurs on the size of our existence, and much else. We are anthropomophic to not just painting the universe as offshoots of psychology, but also in limiting it to it… STILL. It’s embarrassing. Time is as incongruent and manipulatible as artistic effort to manipulate Size and Form are in Art. We apply our psychology… our reasoning, and need for consistent paradoxes to it, and demand physics to follow. Our scientific method accepts this, but is also limited and hindered by this. Even Dr. Who makes this mistake:

youtube.com/watch?v=pvnKXOGYKM8

No reason for cogntive subjectiveness to determine physics, otherway around.

It’s why I scoff as well at subspace and timetravel. However, it’s understandable as a literary device, and is benificial to the thinking process. It’s basic principle in both cases is something like a boat can push off from a medium using another, more efficently and faster. It works to a degree… we apes made ships move under this assumption across the sea. But it’s primitive in it’s crudeness in how much it lumps together and how much it misses. I think it’s a intentional stupidity at times.

I don’t understand what actual physcics has to do with a time travel story. Time travel stories like to talk about breaking the laws of physics all the time. No one worries about the physical impossiblilty of space travel exceding the speed of light. If one were to have an issue with warp speed, it would be more along the lines of questions such as; how can they steer the ship at that speed, etc? The key to time travel stories is just to try to make sense of it in terms that don’t have anything to do with actual manipulating the physical structure of time.

Is that anything like putting too much air in a balloon?

Yeah contra’s physics is well inexplicable and confusing. Like the first time you put too much air in a balloon.

I should explain that joke, it’s actually a reference to Star Trek TOS and about any other Star Trek that you care to name, when faced with something that is far too technical for the average popcorn jockey to understand, simply make an analogy to it, and whether it is impossible or not all gets resolved by imagining defeating energy creatures by firing energy into them. Courtesy of Futurama via the Star Trek franchise. .