State - Science separation. About time?

Paul Feyerabend for a long time postulated the idea of state-science separation. Why? For the same reason why people called for state-church separation.

Why pay billions of EURO at CERN when you have no specific deadlines and expected results from the scientisis working there?
Why pay billions of dollars in state-funded laboratories for research which has no specific goals and which most probable result in nothing?
If science is a tool to make our lifes easier, why pay for research about parallel universes we will never see?
If science is all about applications to human life, why pay for research about strings or other dimensions which you will most probably never make use of? (at least for the next 1,000 years)
If we have supported the separation between state and church, what is the reason we do not support the separation of state and science? After all, church does some practical good to our fellow humans.
Why should we not question where the state money for research goes just because “scientists do research for our good”?

It seems that science is the new “religion” and whoever questions it is simply “uneducated”. You citizens must give your money to us scientists with NO QUESTIONS asked, because the research must continue for the sake of… Research! This is what modern priests of scientism tell us to do. They must be right. Right?

The latest example of NSF which denies to give Congress an analysis on how it gives money to research projects is a great one.
[see http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2013/05/nsf-says-no-to-congressmans-requ.html#more]

Absurd.

90% of your smart phone relies on technology originally funded through State funded projects.
Private enterprise might have put them together in a handy necessary for the hard of thinking population to throw their money at and to fill the bandwidth with meaningless twitter, but none of this would have been possible without state funded basic technical and scientific research.

Science gives us antibiotics and as the above poster said, cell phones.

Religion…sure it does some good things, but it’s also the cause of most war.

The state should promote good religion and good technology. Much of religion and technology is bad.

But then this would mean that all science - or well, most, by a vast majority - will be run by Corporations. This is also problematic.
I do love Feyarabend, though.

The role of the state is either to ignore religion as in the US. Or kick it into the long grass by adopting it, as in the UK.

Government shouldn’t be in the business of what people are to believe, merely how they get along.

yes…so much ignorance displayed here…

Ok the whole of the OP is just stupid. Things researched now seem to be funded on the basis of the return in the short term financially by companies who want to see bang for buck from researchers, a lot of research that isn’t going to directly benefit us in the short term often has to be financed by private people, or companies, or x that want to explain certain things that they know will be unlikely to have a financial return. Science is already a capitalist system, sadly.

The thing is though there are certain things that might not benefit us straight away that some companies and financiers see as viable as the long haul may well give us sustainable technologies that will simply revolutionise human existence. CERN is one of those things that most people think well what is it going to do to benefit mankind in the next 20 years, probably nothing, in the next 1000 probably everything. Science isn’t totally beholden to business in the short term, because business in the short term are fucking morons, who have screwed up the economy in ways that are far to long winded to go into now and don’t matter, but you get the point.

You can no longer seperate government from science, because most of government is utterly reliant on it, many companies have funded tech that brings in not just their source of money but keeps them in government. You might as well try and separate your head from your body and hope the system will continue to function.

Ludditism is all very well, but you’re sitting here right now relying on a system that is so intrinsically tied to government now for you to be doing anything in the modern world that separating them is a non sequitur. This is why war is no longer a viable means to promote technology, in times of war science budgets suffer, we can now do everything in labs we once had to do in the field by firing cannons at people we didn’t like. Get used to it, science is here to stay.

Should science be beholden to government no, is it yes. The good thing is as already said is government is so invested in science for the future survival of mankind in any state that does not denote widespread collapse of the system, that it cannot but be its lover.

People who make analogies between science and religion really have no idea what science means. They are about as useful as kine in a herd meeting out ideas on the basis of their ability to follow blindly another ideology. Worthless. Science is a paradigm, but it is the only one that says, that which tries to kill us and ruin our foundations on a rocky sure are the only people who are worthy of science. No other means of progress in history has been so utterly able to be overthrown by logic and reason and no other means of reasoning has seen so many heroes by simply destroying the mediocre meaningless exactitude of those chancers who thought they had the answer, and for grace and for goodness, for that we should not praise it, we should just watch it, like a hawk watches its prey and if for want of failing we descend on it like a hawk and kill it dead, so that a better phoenix may rise from its ashes in which it should lie buried. The king is dead, long live the king. :smiley:

“Science is but one death after another.”

Niels Bohr.

The same cannot be said of any other medium in history. It’s a good place to be science these days, because everyone is trying to kill everyone else, because for once in our history we have finally perceived the breadth of our ignorance, and like any good pack animal we see our chance to kill every other pack, but the spoil is not to feed on another pack, we don’t actually kill each other we work together, for once it is in our means to become one great pack, by using competition co-operatively. :slight_smile:

Religion is technology of a certain kind.

You believe exactly what the state has taught you to believe about the role of the state. Funny, that.

anon—what does that mean…

“The word technology refers to the making, modification, usage, and knowledge of tools, machines, techniques, crafts, systems, and methods of organization, in order to solve a problem, improve a preexisting solution to a problem, achieve a goal, handle an applied input/output relation or perform a specific function.” (Wiki)

anon—but what do you mean about ‘technology of a certain kind’…

It’s not a gadget you hold in your hand.

I think a small amount of technology is ‘bad’, but it is so bad that it appears to you that much of technology is bad. It’s more of a misuse issue.

And yes, there can be good religion. I haven’t seen it yet, but there can possibly be such a thing, if it were made right.

I basically agree with the first sentence.

“Technology” == “knowledge of techniques”.

Technology doesn’t merely refer to physical gadgets, but; psychological technology (mind games), sociological technology (social engineering), economic technology (money manipulation),…

I disagree.
Education is exactly about exhorting people to believe that which is the case and to reject that which is not.
In this sense such things as religion and patriotism are things that have no place in education, as they do not fit well into either category.

Your religion is entirely about what you believe.
So what you are saying is that the state should dictate the religion of the populous.
We should all be Christians or all Judists, or all Islamics, or Secularists, or whatever.
You would make a good Zealot.

you guys may be agreeing…