Alright I am no coward, I will stand beside and fight just as hard as anyone, and accept the possiblity of death without a quiver.
Suicide though? done deal for sure no chance of escaping death? That reeks of lazy piss poor planning and idiot manipulation of brain dead sheeple.
Can there ever be a true justified scenario in anyones head to make your proposed suicide mission acceptable and justified , think about this you are the suicider, your boss just told you to do this or threatened you and your loved ones in order to force you to do this.
If you are threatening my family if I don’t, then I would kill you or die trying. Why would I suicide to protect the world? I am going to die either way right? Well hell! I don’t want to die alone, you all can come with me. If I am dead why would I really care if you survive? Or my family for that matter? Right, they will die anyway eventually. So why cut my life short just to let them live for a while longer then me? I want to be with them, not seperated.
And why is it the leader never, never, never, suicides? Yea sure I am going to follow blindly someone that won’t do what they ask me to do. Where does that mentality come from? You show me how it is done then I might try it next. This is not the place for OJT, it calls out for blatant: you show me how examples.
Can anyone here justify suicide missions or fully explain the stupid reasoning behind it? I just heard on the news they had bicyclists as suicide bombers. Oh come on! Where is the manipulative pyschology in this whole idea? Anyone?
That was a shockingly selfish perspective. You honestly value your life more than anyone elses’, up to and including everyone elses’? That is lunacy! How can you justify such feelings?
The reason why suicide missions are so successful is because the person doing them has nothing to lose – they are already dead.
I mean, let’s suppose I want to kill someone (usually what people on suicide missions want to do). Now, if I am concerned about my own well-being then I have to seriously plan not only how to kill the person, but also how to escape (being locked up for life in jail and possibly tortured is as bad, if not worse, than death). That would seriously affect my efficiency on the mission.
LMAO thank you. I know, it was it was supposed to be totally selfish and self value. And lunacy. But, why? why is it the opposite why is one better or worse why is the one selfish and the other not. both are selfish in their own way. Is not either way lunacy? why is taking hundreds of lives better then taking thousands Or why is selfish bad when it comes to life? And most damned important why is it ok for you to die and not your leader? How can anyone justify it? And if its selfish to not want to suicide Ok i am guilty. If it were to save innocent lives and you could beyond a doubt show me and prove to me that my timely suicide would save lives, I would do it. but, on your simple order, because you said so? Oh hell no.
This is pyschology thread. why suicide over not suicide?what can be so valuable to throw your life away because someone told you it was needed to be thrown away. Just told you, no verification, no showing, you are just following orders. Why? i don’t know the pyschology behind this whole thought pattern. It is not just the religious that do this, there are suiciders throughout military history and world history. Someone says jump and somone jumps. You notice the one that does the telling never dies.
So explain it all if you can cuz I got lots of questions.
Well, why both are bad . . . I tend to like the Middle Path, and I think this is a good example of what the mean is all about. Both extremes are rather unpleasant, are they not? Selfishness can exist easily in supposed selflessness. The idea of it isn’t that different from people who self-righteously give to charity. They don’t care about the charity doing well, they care that people know they give to charity.
As to why it is never the leader killing themselves: why would they? The leader is important to the movement – they can offer something besides their life for the Cause. A foot-solider, though? What can they offer besides their life and a mission completed? They think that by completing their mission, they will make the world a better place for people they care about.
Most leaders were foot soldiers first. How is a leader important to the movement? What can one leader do that others can’t. No one is irreplaceable although we would love to think we are. If a Movement is just and has enough people what does a leader offer besides telling a foot soldier. go die here. Planning?Morale? wiping noses? what? No leader of a violent action is nonexpendable, if the violence is just. This includes the supreme commander also. If a leader does not lead then what is its purpose? And foot soldiers value their lives just as much. that is why there are always war time demotions and the general rule of thumb, that if you disobey your commander, you can be shot for treason. Hmmm.
Where and what is the good sane pyschology in this?
suicide missions are for the promise of heaven. the suicide bomber hates his life so much that the promise of heaven after death is more valued than their life.
Imp, I don’t think they hate life. Why would they be sacrificing their lives to make this more a world suited to their ideals if they hated life? It does not make sense even from an insane view. If you hate life you won’t care if any die or if your belief is promoted here. What about the heroic stance on suicide. It does not fit. The japanese had pilots that suicided, if they lost face, suicided.
All throughout history someone has told someone else that in order to save their way of being you must die. Its not just religious folks that do this. Military leaders have their underlings do these missions to under duress or stroking egos to volunteer or other ways. It is almost a cultish sense to it. but also a whole lot of power and ego.
As far as leaders talking another human into suicide what sort of person can do that. Does it take a certain pyschological bent to do this and the person that does the suicide. Is it all pyschology or does IQs have something to do with it to?
It’s probably either out of desire for the afterlife or for the glorious experience of dying of free will. I can imagine both of these motivations quite well. Hate of oppressors I regard as an instrumental motivation to the former two, but also quite imaginable - more so than standing on a ladder to lean over a missile reading from the Torah to it - that is deranged.
Actually that is not the reason, the bomber simply hates his or her enemy so much that any sacrifice becomes rational if it results in the destruction of the object of that hatred. It is simply a question of magnitude.
Hate coupled with a sense of weakness, of hopelessness in direct conflict, turns even intelligent people into sentient bombs.
life is portrayed as wildly better in some fantasy land.
Data
Humans naturally judge and compare all things.
Portent
Humans can be trained via advertisements, or something more demonstrative like religion, to hate themselves, the world, their children, average inclination, food, or life itself. This is because humans have a critical urge.
Some sense is here but, is it possible to role play this Question. What would it take for you personnally to be a suicider and flip that what would motivate you to get someone to kill themselves?
Life after death could not motivate me. Fear may, but ,I could not sacrifice others to save my family that I could not do. it goes against my beliefs. Unless you could convince me that those that I kill are a direct threat to my family. but, you would have to do some heavy proving.
boy to convince someone else to die that is a hard one. I would really have to hate or fear that person or believe that they are subanimal.
It is fairly easy to get someone to commit suicide if their situation is entirely bleak, the present a nightmare and the future only more of the same with no hope at all that things may improve.
It is easy for us to question their motives but we do not live their lives. The only clue to their desparation is their choice to become a suicide bomber and take some of the people causing them pain with them when they die.
yes but most that have done so throughout history do not have a bleak life. It is not so much the motive that I question is the pyschological bent .
OK EDIT NOTE: I AM NOT JUST DISCUSSING THE MODERN DAY SUICIDE BOMBERS AND THEIR LEADERS. IT IS ALL PEOPLE THROUGHOUT HISTORY THAT WERE GIVEN SUICIDE MISSIONS, FULFILLED THEM AND THEIR LEADERS.
LETS LOOK PYSCHOLOGICAL AT THIS, NOT PHILISOPHICAL OR SOCIAL.
what are the similarities between a serial killer and a suicide killer? Are there any differences?what provokes either? And are there similar things or thoughts?
Well, dude, bring out your subject for our investigation. I mean, a suicide bomber is still an individual who can only be understood if we observe him or her personally, not by making statements like ‘all suicide bombers hate their life’ without ever having talked to one.
I’ve talked to dozens of direct relations of very young suicide bombers when I was in Lebanon doing a film about Hezbollah. Most of these people had a pretty healthy attitide towards life, which surprised me. It’s just Israel had invaded their land and cut down all their orchyards and planted a prisoncamp there, and they had no big weapons, so they used themselves as missiles to demonstrate to that army that they weren’t afraid to die.
And what is this presumptious attitude towards the afterlife? Very possible there is none, but anyone who claims to know this for certain needs to examine his ontological standards.
Hi, Jake. I consider you a reliable source of information. But I have reservations about the rationality of suicide attacks. And the whole Palestinian cause, frankly. Many of their missile attacks turn out to be fruitless. I read many times that no one is killed, or even injured in many of these salvos. I’m not sure that they any longer wreak pure terror on the Israelis in and of themselves.
And many suicide bombings take out as many Palestinian residents of Israel as they do Jews - bombing a public market is scattergun. Even of the real goal of the Palestinians is merely to kill as many Jews as possible, it seems more effective methods could be used. Overall, I cannot see how the Palestinians’ goals here are reasonable at all, because if they really do include the destruction of Israel, this is a goal that cannot be attained in the foreseeable (read: “conceivable”) future, and certainly not in anything like the present.
It is one thing to view a suicide bomber as an individual, acting alone, with their own psychological processes - but it is a misleading thing. These boys are led to this. They don’t save their pennies to buy their own explosives - they participate in a well-organised program of indoctrination and motivation. They are enlisted. Recruited. The bomber himself may be mentally disturbed, emotionally vulnerable - anything. But the folks that put him up to it are part of this, too. They not only participate in the syndrome - they create it.
One could say that most americans have a “pretty healthy attitude towards life”, but that does not explain much. It doesn’t guarantee that our collective decisions, or those of our leaders, are rational.
They are demonstrating that they aren’t afraid to die. Okay. I think they have already made that point. I also don’t think the Israelis give a rat’s ass about that. Israelis are clearly not afraid to die - they are just less enthusiastic about death, which I take to be a healthy attitude toward life.
By your reasoning, we can at least claim that these suicide bombers need to examine their ontological beliefs - except that these beliefs and the social milieu in which they exist preclude such an examination. I do not think you will find too many philosophers among these bombers, and I cannot divine how their families can be seen as such, either.
I would like to take a look at everyone’s issue, but the words are too heavy and too long, nor interests me , for that reason it will drive me to insanity. And tell everyone here, this is what you must do to have a happy life, do this for the glory of your faith.
Misunderstanding and misinterpretation is the key of all insanity.
Faust, just one thing; I was talking of Lebanese, not of Palestinians - and these bombers did attain their goal, which was to drive the Israeli’s from sountern Lebanon. So I’d say the attacks, which were on a military prison, not on civilian targets, were pretty much justified from the bombers’ perspective, as unpleasant that idea was to me when I was confronted with it.