Thales: First philosopher and first scientist

Thales: First philosopher and first scientist

Thales, who lived around 625 BC, is called the ‘first philosopher and the first scientist’. He is considered to be the first thinker to propose a single universal principle of the material universe, “a unique substratum that, itself unchanging, underlay all change.” When we think about this problem of comprehending change we recognize that there must exist something that is essential to change that remains unchanged.

When we look around us we are struck with the fact that things constantly change. Thales is said to have asked the important question does everything change or is there something that remains unchanged? If there is not something that remains unchanged then how can we recognize anything as being what it was before change? We recognize continuity as well as change. Even when we recognize that something changed appearance we are confident that something remains of the original source. Is there one primordial thing that never changes?

The questions and answers developed by Thales are extremely important because for the first time we observe a human not resorting to animistic answers for that which is observed. He did not settle for the answer “I do not understand so it must be just the nature of the gods made it happen”. He also followed a new human inclination to believe that the mind is capable of comprehending what happens in the world. Philosophy was born.

If we added to traditional thinking the abstract idea of change our world becomes tremendously complex. The way we manage the complexity is that we create; we create by introducing generalizations plus other abstractions.

Absent the concept of change we humans need deal only with the here and the now. We can include the past and the future but only in that they are an extension of the here and the now. Since the past and future are extensions they must be a unity like the present, the past and future can be only what now is, they can be nothing else.

Thinking, that excludes change, eliminates a great deal of complexity. It simplifies greatly our task of thinking, because we need deal only with concrete things; we need to deal with only what we sense here and now. Some call this a traditional mode of thinking. It exemplifies the thinking of primitive humanity up to the Greek period that began around 500 BC. It is, I think, a good way to comprehend what myth is all about.

Philosopher, tycoon, philanthropist, author, and international political activist George Soros says in his book “The Age of Fallibility” that “Once it comes to generalizations, the more general they are, the more they simplify matters. This world is best conceived as a general equation in which the present is represented by one set of constants. Change the constants and the same equation will apply to all past and future situations…I shall call this the critical mode of thinking.”

Soros identifies the traditional mode of thinking with an ‘organic society’. He further identifies the critical mode of thinking with the ‘open society’. Each society must find a means to deal with factors that do not conform to the will of the members of that society. In a traditional society, even though it focuses primarily on phenomena that are generally static, nature can be obdurate.

In the traditional mode of thinking the central tenet is that things are as they have always been and the future will be likewise—thus they cannot be any other way. The status quo is fate and all we need do is learn that fate and to organize our lives in accordance. In such a world logic and argumentation has no place because there exists no alternatives.

When we examine the nature of epistemology–what can we know and how can we know it–in such a mode of thinking we quickly illuminate the advantages and drawbacks. In a traditional society there is no bifurcation between thought and concrete reality. There exists only the objective relationship between knower and known. The validity of traditional truth is unquestioned; there can be no distinction between ideas and reality.

Where a thing exists we give it a name. Without a name a thing does not exist. Only where abstraction exists do we give non-objects a name. In our modern reality we label many non-concrete things and thus arises the separation of reality and thoughts. The way things appear is the way things are; the traditional mode of thinking can penetrate no deeper.

The traditional mode of thinking does not explain the world by cause and effect but everything performs in accordance with its nature. Because there is no distinction between the natural and supernatural and between reality and thought there arise no contradictions. The spirit of the tree is as real as the branch of the tree; past, present, and future melt into one time. Thinking fails to distinguish between thought and reality, truth and falsehood, social and naturals laws. Such is the world of traditional thought and the world of mythological thought.

The traditional mode is very flexible as long as no alternatives are voiced, any new thing quickly becomes the traditional and as long as such a situation meets the needs of the people such a situation will continue to prevail.

To comprehend the traditional mode we must hold in abeyance our ingrained habits of thought, especially our abstract concept of the individual. In a changeless society all is the Whole, the individual does not exist.

The individual is an abstraction that does not exist whereas the Whole, which is in reality an abstraction, exists as a concrete concept for traditional thought. The unity expressed by the Whole is the unity much like an organism. The individuals in this society are like the organs of a creature; they cannot last if separated from the Whole. Society determines which function the individual plays in the society.

The term “organic society” is used often to label this form of culture. When all is peaceful with no significant voices placing forth an alternative then this organic society exists in peace. In this organic society a human slave is no different from any other chattel. In a feudal society the land is more important than the landlord who derives his privileges from the fact that he holds the land.

Thales was not the first to entertain the idea of a “substratum” as you describe it. Chinese and Indian philosophers were discussing such centuries before Thales existed. What can be said about Thales is that he is probably the first Western philosopher to use reductionism in attempts to find the material underpinnings of material phenomena. His “water is the common denominator of all physical phenomena” is logical in certain senses. Water is essential for life. The major component, by volume, of planets and organisms is water. Of course most later philosophers disagreed as to what this denominator is.
Thales was neither the first philosopher nor the first scientist.

Of course there are things that don’t change and I agree that without a fixed Absolute nothing is known or proven.

kingdaddy,
What, if anything, does that have to do with a discussion of Thales as presented as the first philosopher and scientist?

It is concerning the second paragraph of the OP here.

"When we look around us we are struck with the fact that things constantly change. Thales is said to have asked the important question does everything change or is there something that remains unchanged? If there is not something that remains unchanged then how can we recognize anything as being what it was before change? We recognize continuity as well as change. Even when we recognize that something changed appearance we are confident that something remains of the original source. Is there one primordial thing that never changes? "

Sorry, did I miss something?

Thales made no comments on change. That was Heraclitus; and your opinion comes from Parmenides’ and Zeno’s arguments against flux. Let’s get it right.

If you say so, although I’m not that interested in what Thales actually said, I’m responding to what Coberst is saying about Thales and what he thinks.

Is this a problem for you?

kingdaddy,
How sad!!! You cannot comment on Coberst’s ideas about Thales without knowing what Thales says. Doing so is arguing against an argument with no basis of any of the absolute you seem to require. I won’t flame with you. Read anything about the pre-Socratics. Otherwise you offer here nothing but opinion; and as my college roomate noted, opinions are like assholes–everybody’s got one.

So your saying there is something other then opinion that I, you, or anyone can offer in written form? What might that be?

Do you believe in Absolute Truth?

kingdaddy,
Again, what does absolute truth have to do with anything? The enclopedia of philosophy I have notes that Thales left no writings, that the earliest writings about what he said and did are Heroditus’ and Aristotle’s and that later writings about him are based on these sources. All Aristotle notes about Thales is that T. found water to be the ultimate reduction of diverse phenomena. Post-Aristotelian ideas about what Thales said and did provide a wide range of speculative opinions. So it is a matter of whose opinion is trustworthy. Absolutes have nothing to do with it. Thales still believed in the gods. You can’t, as any good historian realizes, make absolute statements about historical figures. You can only make assessments based on the best available references.

Then the mistake is mine for leaning on what Coberst said about some of Thales claims regarding unchanging references.

Excuse me please, I’ll but out.

kingdaddy,
Don’t butt out. Confront Coberst on what is known about Thales!

My info on Thales came from “A History of Knowledge” by Charles Van Doren

Coberst,
Thanks for the reference. It is always great when I can converse with another prolific reader. I’ve also had problems in how to present pre-Socratic thinkers since little or none of their ideas are extant in writings other than those of Heroditus, Plato or Aristotle. Unfortunately, these must become our primary sources even if they amount to after the fact critical opinions. Where I objected to the findings in your OP was the statement about firsts, which can be easily refuted.