A greeting to you gentlemen, my name is Afshin and I am very new to this site. Just like to take a few moments to say that this site is very educational and hopefully it helps us broaden our horizon, helping us better understand why things they are the way they are so we can eventually and hopefully accomplish a common focus.
To understand how something works one must take it apart to build something better or correct it, finding out why things they are the way they are. We are who we are because of what we have become, a becoming as the result of our environment and upbringing. This all has to do with the SYSTEM of the country that we are all brought up in and the roots for it are the seeds that everyday is being planted our lives, conditioning if you will.
Unfortunately shaping the mind of the masses has EVERYTHING to do with accomplishing a common focus. It is an absolute mistake to assume that things they are the way they are because it’s human nature. Yes there is truth in that but not because it was given to us by what we call God or encoded in our DNA, but rather have chosen that path and hence become a part of our nature, a nature that we passed on to our children and they to theirs, a growth over decades that made it difficult day by day to change eventually being who we are. It is a process towards BECOMING and we see it everyday through our environment and upbringing,
Creating a system for a greater good of humanity will no doubt need control; it is part of a process of the BECOMING, educating, planting new seeds and breeding is the only way. It is definitely a process that is accomplished through gradual growth and it could take even decades. There will no doubt be revolts and wars but it is necessary to unite man kind. We all want the same thing but it is this very SYSTEM that does not allow us, making us believe in an illusion that there is justice and equality in the world we live in, the very act of Capitalism dictates that people are not equal. In a world of a divide and rule policy humanity will eventually perish causing our own extinction. It is again the very act of Capitalism that teaches us hate, pride, prejudices, cast systems, being better than someone else, superior and inferior attitudes are all the leading causes that drives us so much to hate one another and hence are born criminals. Capitalism is the main cause of suffering in our so called free world, a world where the rich become richer and the poor become poorer.
Once the process of the becoming is taking shape towards this collective work of equality where no one is anymore better than anyone else where greed is being abolished hence reducing suffering becomes part of our nature than we know we are heading towards a world of spirituality. I want everyone here to understand this is only a philosophical point of view, but then again philosophy is the essence of all creation. Thanks
Becoming is the state where the majority of mankind is caught in, constantly rushing towards their future selves, while destroying the present. The only thing I’d say is that I agree with you that society conditions us, hence our young are presently being brought up to perpetuate the same insanity that we see today, but the becoming that we see in society, the “social system”, “capitilism” is a reflection of the mind. So its kind of a symbiotic relationship, society conditions, but it is the mind that creates society, that enevitably conditions.
To bring us to equality I think we have to end becoming entirely, and be able to focus on the immediate present. Of course we still need to plan, plan to build homes and bridges. It is the becomming of the Ego/self that is detrimental.
So I would make two distictions. Two types of becoming. Becoming of the Ego/self/individual, and becoming of society as a whole. For what you are proposing to move towards a state of becoming of soceity as a whole, then we would have to end the becoming of the ego within ourselves. It has to begin within. Individuals need to disolve the ego/self. We need to stop the process of becoming within ourselves, and therefore the process shall stop without, the narcisistic reflection that society has adopted shall stop.
Hello Rounder thank you for the reply, I couldn’t agree with you more you are absolutely right. The change has to come from within because the outside world is a direct reflection of what we are inside. However would you say that in order for individuals to change from within it automatically becomes a process and as I said the process is a gradual growth and hence one goes through changes eventually becoming what was intended. The process, change and the becoming is inevitable and a fact of life, now the only question is what direction the process, change and the becoming takes and that has to do with the choices we make in our lives and the choices that we make for our children and they to theirs. This shapes the very foundation of the character helping those making better and healthier choices. The best example we can see is in our current society where the kids have absolutely no respect for their parents and their elders, and that is simply because the system does not allow us to discipline our young, a system designed to suite the criminals or the juveniles. Ok why I brought this up was in order for us to reach a state of spirituality we have to be thought as young with the right information so that what we sow we will eventually reap. This seed that we plant in our young becomes a tree and its roots deep making it very difficult to uproot it, and by uprooting I simply mean our ways becomes habits and habits are hard to break hence becoming part of our nature. But you see in order for that to happen the outside world and our inside world (our nature) have to compliment each other, so you see the inner change or the becoming is a direct result of what we are being fed or feeding each other and that comes from an outside source from the day we are being born you cannot separate one from the other.
Our ways and our world are now like this big tree because as the result of the choices our ancestors made for us and we have made for our children thinking it being part of a norm knowing that’s how things are and that’s how thing’s will be. We are very set in our ways because and again of the seeds that were fed over decades making It very difficult for us to unit because of what we have become. To dissolve the ego/self as you said is a process itself a process towards changing and therefore a becoming. It is a very difficult process when all we see around ourselves is a world designed of ego/self, and if there is no control to reverse this process and by control I mean changing or creating a system that we all just need enough abolishing greed creating an environment where everybody is treated equally a control that is a must and the price for such a system are revolts and wars but like I said necessary to unite mankind simply because the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few. Of course this process is a gradual growth and could take decades. Depending on ourselves individually so that we can change from within is almost impossible because we are a slave to this current system and it is this very system that controls our lives making us become them. So you see control is needed in either way but one shapes you for the better and a greater good and the other that would cause our own extinction. To stop the process the of becoming within ourselves is to say to stop evolving. The process of changing, becoming and evolving is inevitable the only question is what path we will take.
When dealing with affairs of the mind, and not with objects or finite plans, I am a proponant of holism. Does a change within automatically become a process? Thought is a process. Any change within the brain, within our conditioning, our previous experiences, and memory automatically becomes a process, but can the process of thought end? Can we live completely through awareness. Can we have complete perception of a moment un-adulterated by thought? I think we can. Thought is time, and we can bring about the end of time when we realise that there is only the now, and so such a perception/awareness, ends the process which we are stuck in, in an instant. It is an immediate release.
Is this an easy state to come to? Yes and no. I think that it is innate. It the innante conciousness that we have been born into, and thus it is our birthright. But as you said we have all been heavily conditioned, and so for a fragmented mind, a mind broken, and seperated, a mind in conflict it can be a very difficult venture. I would say near impossible to completely end thought. To come to an absolute awareness.
So can thought bring about its own end? can thought create a process of which to bring about its end? I would say yes. Awareness is the absolute. Perception of the infinite. So can the finite, bring us to the infinite? I think it can. Thought deals in facts not truths. I would say there is various fundamental facts which can bring thought to realization. In the end the mind must accept these facts on a much deeper level, but in the begining, the start of the process, thought needs to see fact. Such as there is no time. The ego/self is illusiotory, it is not real, it is not what I am. These are facts which thought needs to come to grips with.
I would relate it to geometry, where we can locate a point on a line, we can locate the centre of a circle. The process to locate the point is finite, yet the point itself is infinite. A line segment is defined as an infinite amount of points, a point has no size no scale. Such as space is infinitly divisible.
So yes, and no. I think we can trancend the stupidity of conditoning in an instant, in the end it must come about in an instant, and thus all thought processes end, and you are left with the absolute. Yet thought can bring about such a process, bring us ever so close, where we can finally jump off, and let go.
When you realize that there is no time, you realize there is no choice, and you allow yourself to act naturally. Change outside is natural, the world is not static. Thought however is rather static, and seperates us from the outside world. Thought is the content of the past, when we are stuck in thought we are imprisoned in the past, and unable to percieve the present, as it is.
I understand why you look at the youth as you do, but we are all conditioned. Why cannot we bring about this change within the old, and the young? Your analogy of a seed that we plant, its funny, it reminds me of conditioning. It is precisley the problem we have right now. The seeds that have become deep rooted trees are the exact conditioning that we wish too change. You are suggesting that we should merely recondition them in a different manner. Create a different prison for them to live, one which we may deem to be nicer, yet it is still a prison. Can we not negate all conditioning? and percieve the moment as it is?
I want to make clear that I do not advocate or believe possible to live your life without thought. We need thought, of course it is evident, and thoughts will arise during our daily activities. We should be aware of these thoughts, and not attempt to control them. What I do suggest is Awareness, and using thought through awareness. Being able to percieve the world as it is, and then utilizing our thoughts through that perception. Instead of what we see today, percieving the world through knowledge, and then attempting to use knowledge towards that distorted view. Not to look at today through a thousand years past, yet look at the past from today.
So I think that we should allow our youth to be aware, not create such a suffacating environment for them to live in. We should teach our children how to be aware.
When one realizes that society is not seperate from himself, then one realizes to bring about an end to society, to bring about an end to greed, to the ego, to hate, discrimination, one must bring about the end within oneself. When you realize that society is a reflection of you, then it must become evident that to bring about change, you must change yourself. Society does not place the bounds on your mind, you do. I know that I said that society conditions, and it does, but it is still not seperate from you, and you can bring about its end.
We go through thoughts everyday negative and positive, is it possible to be aware of it and still choose to ignore it, and would you say that this characteristic depends on many factors. You said that we should be aware of these thoughts and not attempt to control them, don’t you think it is just the opposite, wouldn’t you agree that the controlling of our thoughts are those that makes us do the right or wrong things, and yes it is the ability of awareness that helps us accomplish that. So I am a bit confused or probably I did not just understand you correctly. I am not to sure if you are a father but if you are:
Would you allow your children to watch violence in any form and when I say any form I mean from entertainment to real life issues like domestic violence between husband and wife’s.
Would you allow them to watch things like pornography and do drugs or associate themselves with people who do things like drugs and steal or think in a very negative way?
Would you rather have them have good habits or bad habits.
Would you rather have your kids be brought up under an environment and upbringing where the energy is positive or the vise versa.
Why am I asking these questions is because I want you to honestly tell me if the above factors have any bearing or influence and would have any effect on one’s choices and attitude towards life. Experience in life has shown me that we are all memories filled with experiences and based on those experiences we make choices and so you are only aware as much as you know. Why cultures are so different and that something that makes sense to one culture does not to the other. The only thing that I can think of is the different information they both carry. What is normal, common sense and natural to one may not be for the other, he or she being convinced there is no other.
Nope I don’t think that its the opposite, and no I wouldn’t agree that the controlling of our thoughts are those that make us do the right and wrong thing. First right and wrong, are just fabrications, as far as I am concerned you should leave right and wrong at the side of the road and never look back. Morals are just illusions. Second why control thought ? Say you are religious, so you have the bibles concept of right or wrong, and the bible tells you not to covet your neighbours wife. You see her out one day wearing a tight white top, and you get aroused. You say in your mind “Thats wrong”, but your still aroused, and so you try to assert control. One part of your mind over the other. You feel like a bad person, a monster… blah blah blah. What arises from trying to control the mind in such a way is a conflicted, and seperated mind. That arousal is part of you, yet you do not like it so you attempt to control it, sufficate it, deny it. But it is a part of you. There is no self investigation, there is conflict, and this brings about suffering. When the mind is in conflict the individual suffers, from confusion, depression, and many other mental illnesses.
I think you would find that if you are aware of your thoughts, then you come to know youself better. If you are aware of your thoughts, they arise, and then they die naturally, its when you try to assert control that they stick in your mind like nasty parasites. I think in my example above, if the man did not try to control his thought, did not pass judgment, then the thought would pass, and he would go about his day. Yet in the example above a man could be morally plagued by such a thing, end up completely hating himself. Might ruin his day, might ruin his week(if the man was exceedingly religious). Thats just one example, you take life time of experience, and try to deal with thought by controlling it… well its pretty obvious why society is in such a state of chaos.
I am not a father, but I will answer your questions anyways. I do have family that are quite young.
Yes. I would not try to shield them from anything. Violence is an aspect of nature. I would not shelter my kids. It is the sheltered personality that is the most vunerable.
lol @ this one. No… what age are we talking about here ? teenagers? By the time a child has reached his teens, I would not impose any rules on him whatsover. If he ventured this way I would attempt to help him, mostly the drugs I would be worried about.
Again right and wrong… there are no good habits, and bad habits
Meh… all of these questions are really black, and white. There is no black and white, for the most part I wouldn’t care where I raised my children.
Knowledge is all memories of past experience. But you don’t have to live your life completely through knowledge. Ever experience a runners high ? If you have are you thinking, or are you just completely in tune with your body, and surroundings?
Common sense is overatted.
“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” Albert Einstein
Living through awareness brings about natural action, and it is only through this state of mind that we will ever achieve the society that you are dreaming of.
1. Would you allow your children to watch violence in any form and when I say any form I mean from entertainment to real life issues like domestic violence between husband and wife’s.
No - at least until they get big enough to talk to and understand pretty well what they’re being told. A lot of what babies see goes straight into deep memory, even if they seem not to remember much at the time… I’d like them to have a reasonably blank-slate to build themselves up from. Mind you - he does like to watch the ‘Angry Beavers’ and the do tend to beat eachother up a lot. [Sigh] Another ‘good Dad’ mission failed.
2. Would you allow them to watch things like pornography and do drugs or associate themselves with people who do things like drugs and steal or think in a very negative way?
He’s gonna do it/meet them whatever I say, and unless I really came down on him and locked him in the celler for about 20 years… There’s nothing I can do about it. The ‘cure’ would be more damaging than the ‘disease’. Better to not condemn, and be there as the voice of reason when required. Kids have to be exposed to these things in order to recognize and fight them. I’d be more worried about the stealers and negative thinkers than anything else - porn and drugs I can deal with.
3. Would you rather have them have good habits or bad habits.
A bit of both, though hopefully more of the former. (silly question)
4. Would you rather have your kids be brought up under an environment and upbringing where the energy is positive or the vise versa.
Positive of course - raising my child is not an experiment in the “effects of social enviroment on personality” But then again - I don’t believe your upbringing has the last word on who you will become - nothing related to human beings is ever that simple. As you say Rounder - ‘holism’… no complex effect ever has only one cause.
Mind you Rounder - you might find your answers change when you do become a father…
Mostly agree. I believe nature also has an influence on what we have become. Some individuals are born with mental and/or physical disabilties. And this may have some affect on individuals’ ability to excel intellectually and/or ability to function.
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That’s contradictory. If there will still be hate in the world you propose, then the world you propose is no better than the capitalist you described. I really don’t see anything loving or compassionate about spilling blood through wars and revolts.
No offense but you sound like if you want to “cleanse” the world. That’s scary because I have pictures of Hitler, the Rwandan Genocide, etc in mind.
Hi Rounder do you believe that we are born with a Conscience or not, and if you do how would you define Conscience.
Ok now let us take your example of “Thou shall not covet your neighbor’s wife†I covet my neighbor’s wife all the time, but I never feel guilty nor do I pass judgment on myself of any sort. There are ways to quench ones thirst when aroused but if one deliberately tries to commit an offensive act like raping or trying to sleep with some one else’s wife are things that separates us from the wild and ability to have a Conscience. The very act of an offence and non offence are thoughts that are always triggered by an outside source and the ability of awareness as you suggested and a Conscience allows us to make the proper choice. We are all born with two sides and it is very real, real as you suggested that violence is an aspect of nature. So weather you call it black or white or any other thing these two forces are within us, not keeping the balance with having one more than the other would be like a drug addict or an alcoholic that becomes a serious problem and that is when it sticks to you like nasty parasites becoming a habit to the extent an offensive act is committed so that ones high can be felt again. It is these offensive thoughts that we all go through everyday that a name has been given like good or bad, and you don’t have to be religious to believe in this. So it is the ability of a Conscience or common sense that makes us to behave in a civilized manner and it all comes down to making a choice and the moment you are faced with this you are automatically faced with which one needs to be controlled, practicing the ones which are proper becoming natural and hence part of ones nature and not therefore becoming a struggle. So yes it is that awareness that allows us to make the proper choice eventually fading and dying the thoughts that need to
Greetings to you Tabula and Curious, thank you very much for the reply.
Tabula the only reason why I posted those questions was to make a point that they were all are seeds, seeds that could have profound effect on ones character. Just as you suggested what is seen at a very young age stays deep in their memory even when they don’t seem to remember it. So all i was trying to say is that if you feed them with the right information (seeds) or exposing them while they are growing up their chances or odds of making better choices in the future is greater. I did not suggest locking them up in the room for the next 20 years because if they want to get it they will as you suggested and you are right, so weather it is pornography, drugs, negative thoughts or stealing it is the same deal you can do nothing about it. I was trying to say that one must try and do their best to shield them from all these at that age, it is a very crucial age where the mind is like a sponge and you want to be sure what you feed Is not garbage because that stays with them through the rest of their lives. These are all a becoming future habits which would be very difficult to get rid of, so I did not understand when you said a bit of both. You can only do your best to train them the best as you can helping them make better choices. The choices are now based on the foundation that they were built on. Now It is even more difficult when the system of the country does not allow you do your job, like trying to disciplining your young and every time a parent tries to do so the system teaches you to call 911. Again here is another example of the seeds that are fed in our young; the system eventually becomes this big parent figure that has a big role of control allowing what they want to feed our masses. If our upbringing and our environment are in direct conflict than you surly have a problem, the only thing one can do is their best for which their crucial times are the stages of their very young. One has to all the time be an example by applying it in their lives 24/7 and not come up with the excuse just because they are going to do what they want to so I will let it be. The harder one tries the better their chances are for your young to make better choices in their lives. No one said raising a child is an experiment but what I mentioned at all the above is a fact of life and we see it every day. And yes ones upbringing is not the last word on who you will become it is a combination of the both that eventually shapes us. If you were to be born with different parents different environment different experiences different circumstances different opportunities you would be making different choices and hence a different person.
Hello Curios_rina
Control is inevitable weather it is democracy or communism the only question is which side you are on. One would cause our own extinction and the other would cause our survival, now knowing this there are those who would be against the principles of equality, justice, discrimination, ways that we are currently used to, ways of the so called democracy. It is them that do not want to change and live the life of profit and greed that would see those who want to live a life of the vice versa as a threat and would definitely want to revolt and put a stop to it. So revolt is inevitable but like i said one would cause our survival and the other our extinction we have to pick one. it is very ridiculous to think that a world of unity and peace is going to accomplished without a fight that’s why we all have to look at the bigger picture and realize that the need of the many does really outweigh the need of the few a cause for a greater good. Correct me if I am wrong but history has shown over and over again that united we stand and divided we fall. So my good friend there is nothing contradictory about what I said and if you would have read my post completely and understood it you would know my heart is in the right place without making a ridiculous comment like I remind you of Hitler and genocide and stuff like that also for your information the Hitler thing was dictator ship I was talking about communism.
You make cleansing of the world sound like a terrible thing. If it is not cleansing that we need than what is it?