The big question:

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

If you’re willing to ask this question without bais,
then here we go…

People are most willing to defend and seek what gives them pleasure, and what that really is – becomes a stimulating reaction within, instead of an external, impersonal fact/option.

There are allot of things that people like and believe in, but I don’t think that these things would be worth much if no-body gave them value by means of demand/admiration/attraction.

I think that the original meaning of the human species wasn’t very complex or special; I think that allot of what we have today is a synthetic re-stimulation of an originally real meaning.

When people watch movies that have fighting in them, for example, we’d get excited [usually] because of our instinct in this field, which had an original meaning of fight-or-flight, self-preservation, self-defence, etc.

People are constantly seeking fuel for their sensations to react to, even when they don’t need to, because these meanings where their original meaning of life and humanity.

But if we looked passed all feeling and emotion that was attached to any concept – its “value” may feel naked and disturbingly – valueless.

The big question is:
Are we just simple machines with a simple meaning, that have build vastly complex ways of expressing and acting upon that meaning? And that original meaning – was so dis-inchantingly one-dimensional, that we can’t possibly be satisfied with that being “the meaning of life” and “the ultimate truth”?

The basics of problem solving, consumption, reproduction – that’s all that there ever was? That’s all that we want and that’s all that we have?

I usedto think, long ago, that God made everything and that it had a grand purpose/meaning. Now I don’t feel that way, and I don’t believe in things like the Biocosm either. I think that we are our own meaning, and the univese/God had nothing to do with it. I think that I’m a robot, a system, a machine, and I realize how automated I am.

What do you think about this subject?
Words fail me, as always. I don’t feel I’ve expressed what I really wanted to say.

2 
we are our own meaning. its just that so few Humans, if any, believe in their own being. as a matter of fact i have come across none!! none!!. (except for maybe the NASA shuttle program. and even here god sneaks into the thought process.)

and that is the greatest Human tragedy of all Human tragedies, in the end.

3

I think you’re probably right Dan, complexity generated from simplicity. But don’t get blue - it is both the doom and the exhaultation of humanity to lack a point but to continue on regardless.

4

This is very much alike an idea that I’ve posted in this forum a few months ago.

Understanding what motivates action its not complex. Thus we accept all science explanations againts logic parameters, that will reveal us the truth.
Accepting that love or hate, is motivated by chemical reactions, and assuming that they arrive from one of our 5 sences, we are reaching the conclusion we are no diferent from a well programmed robot.

And this is the very reflex of the result of the head-to-head of mankind versus post-mordenism. What we are all felling is the awakening of a dream. That’s why when you get to the streets you only see people stealing, consuming drugs and dying, instead of large highways filled with magnetic cars propelled by electricity.

Instead we decided that flooding ourselfes with pleasure would be much better. Anyway this is about to end.

It’s funny to meet this new conclusion about our value. What do we do here? The answer to this question is no diferent from the reasons of an ant, dog or pig.

5

Other then my fur, I’m not [emotionally] “blue”. I’m not sad about it, but I’m sick and tierd of being arrogant, self-righteous, and expecting justice.

And it’s not like we “lack a point” – it’s just that we have too many points to number or combine into some sort of silly monopoint.

north,
yes, we are special aswel. I know that we are special. We can store information upon a medium that doesn’t die the way our body dies. And then, eventually, this thing called “technology” pops up, and lots of wonderful people pour fuel into a rocket aimed strait towrads optional and expotential evolution, through mechanically aided autoselection. [Screw you, ‘natural’ selection!]
:smiley:

But if I don’t get to be a part of Ray Kurzweil’s “singularity” – I’ll be prity pissed…

The kind of competition and diversity that exists within the food chain on earth, can also be found in civilization. I think that all of our “good” and “evil” – does help add allot of veriety to our species, which also helps the collective species have higher chance of survival – because of diversity.

I remember talking to a Nihilist about civilization. He was saying about how many “millions of years” it set us “back” in our evolution when “the strong have to be opressed by the weak”, etc, charity and the stronger looking after the lessers. But “natural selection” is just the act of killing a percentage of the diversity that already exists in our civilization due to genetic drift.

Strong-support-the-weak methodology sees weakness as a random curse that needs repair and mercy. Charity and sympathy means that we want to repair the damaged instead of finishing it off or not giving a damn.

This is the key force behind medical technology, which will ultimately revolutionize our species once it gets advanced enough, to the point of our bodies being immune to everything? [genetic engineering, nanobiobots, etc, I hope].

The general compinsation sort of attitude, making sacrifices, I see how mind altering and destorted it is, but that’s the price we pay for our unity and our being a team, and it’s worth it!

Thanks for reminding me about that one. I know that we aren’t a violent species, and you can safely walk out of your home, talk to people, etc. We’re domensticated. :wink:

That stupid Jesus bulshit about turning the other cheek and loving your enemies was wrong for so many reasons – but even that, can be properly applied and wise, depending on the situation.

I dunno about you, but for me, realizing that almost everything is nothing [compared to what it claims itself to be] – I just feel more humble. I don’t want anyone or anything to be wasted, because there is already so little, so much.

…Stupid talking, stupid words. I’m out.
Byebye, and have a great day!

6

The kind of competition and diversity that exists within the food chain on earth, can also be found in civilization. I think that all of our “good” and “evil” – does help add allot of veriety to our species, which also helps the collective species have higher chance of survival – because of diversity.

did my world not exist before i did? i say the variety was already there. diversity arises after we formulate beliefs about our environment and act on them. the value of these choices/beliefs are dependent upon the results we incur from their action. the hiararchy of values in the human mind come after experience(1st hand knowledge)/belief(2nd hand),how in tune our beliefs are with our knowledge depends on our potential for the critical analysis of our environment or our awareness. the more concrete the knowledge we have, the easier the decisions we have to make are. value is a matter of necessity vs. preference
food= necessity(grounded in biology)
water=necessity(likewise)
air= necessity(similar)
sex=necessity(if reproduction is desired)(also pleasurable)

the similarities of the human race come from common necessity. the diversity comes from preference.

7

The kind of competition and diversity that exists within the food chain on earth, can also be found in civilization. I think that all of our “good” and “evil” – does help add allot of veriety to our species, which also helps the collective species have higher chance of survival – because of diversity.

did my world not exist before i did? i say the variety was already there. diversity arises after we formulate beliefs about our environment and act on them. the value of these choices/beliefs are dependent upon the results we incur from their action. the hiararchy of values in the human mind come after experience(1st hand knowledge)/belief(2nd hand),how in tune our beliefs are with our knowledge depends on our potential for the critical analysis of our environment or our awareness. the more concrete the knowledge we have, the easier the decisions we have to make are. value is a matter of necessity vs. preference
food= necessity(grounded in biology)
water=necessity(likewise)
air= necessity(similar)
sex=necessity(if reproduction is desired)(also pleasurable)

the similarities of the human race come from common necessity. the diversity comes from preference.

8

I thinks that I is a robot, a system, a machine, and realizes how automated I is.

There is more out there than I; where I does not exist.

Do not let illusionary boundries fool you. Bow down to nothing and you will go on in all ways and forever.

Let freedom ring.

9

Well, there are genetic differences to, slight differences in hardware.

Our needs are the same as the needs of any other animal on earth, so our needs are not what makes us ‘similar’ – in any close sense of the word.

Murdoc, are you from E-Sangha?

I’ve never understood the idea of “there is no I”.
I am a container, I can contain and actuate a limited range of functions.
I feel like a peace of hardware running a program.

What is it like to “go on in all ways forever”?

10

would you say were similar insofar as we are all animals who are aware, interact with our environment, and formulate beliefs about it? that no matter what you think we have thinking in common.

11

I believe in the trinitarian design: mind, body and soul. Our body is, like you said, practically a machine, it is composed of a myriad of complex components that form a foundation that is in fact another component to another foundation, and so on. Yet, our mind is a seperate entity, one that cooperates with the body with its own thoughts, concepts and relations between the two. However, when something is presented to your conciousness that creates an emotion, that is the soul. Even the psycho/sociopathic has feelings, whether the positive or negative in terms of their motive/consequence. Then, the mind comes in and decides how to express and communicate these emotions. Since the soul is not able to directly communicate any of its properties to the objective universe, no human is capable of fully understanding itself, which often results in the misery of the human condition. When you find yourself doubting the concept of a soul, God or anything that has no content other than its presence as a concept, your mind, determined to seek ‘truth’, applies reason in a place that is unreasonable, logic in a place that is illogical. I think that’s the case here.
Everyone is different in terms of the form and content of their perception due to the fact everyone develops concepts in different spatiotemporal order. This ‘divine’ order is what makes us different, for certain concepts that naturally excite us, are often preceded or followed by ones that do not excite us. Thus, this order determines what you feel is important, desirable and truthful.
The statement ‘There is no I’ is contradictory in the respect that the concept of ‘I’ is inherent and indubitable as it directly and immediately entails that there is some type of existing ‘I’ capable of marking itself as an ‘I’.

12

I believe in the trinitarian design: mind, body and soul. Our body is, like you said, practically a machine, it is composed of a myriad of complex components that form a foundation that is in fact another component to another foundation, and so on. Yet, our mind is a seperate entity, one that cooperates with the body with its own thoughts, concepts and relations between the two. However, when something is presented to your conciousness that creates an emotion, that is the soul. Even the psycho/sociopathic has feelings, whether the positive or negative in terms of their motive/consequence. Then, the mind comes in and decides how to express and communicate these emotions. Since the soul is not able to directly communicate any of its properties to the objective universe, no human is capable of fully understanding itself, which often results in the misery of the human condition. When you find yourself doubting the concept of a soul, God or anything that has no content other than its presence as a concept, your mind, determined to seek ‘truth’, applies reason in a place that is unreasonable, logic in a place that is illogical. I think that’s the case here.
Everyone is different in terms of the form and content of their perception due to the fact everyone develops concepts in different spatiotemporal order. This ‘divine’ order is what makes us different, for certain concepts that naturally excite us, are often preceded or followed by ones that do not excite us. Thus, this order determines what you feel is important, desirable and truthful.
The statement ‘There is no I’ is contradictory in the respect that the concept of ‘I’ is inherent and indubitable as it directly and immediately entails that there is some type of existing ‘I’ capable of marking itself as an ‘I’.

13

Because you don’t want to.

To be honest, I never said there is no I, but that there is more than I.

I can only do so many things, but outside of I …

And, to go always and forever is like nothing at all.

14

I think that I’m a robot, a system, a machine, and I realize how automated I am.

I thinks that I is a robot, a system, a machine, and realizes how automated I is.

I just said the same thing but in 2 different perspectives.

One is new, though. The second suggests an ‘out of body’ point of view. You are speaking about yourself while being yourself. How is this possible unless outside of yourself somehow?

15

a machine doesn’t think it just reacts to the enviroment.

apparently you can think. evidence. you simply asked a question.

can a machine ask a question?

16

Not a question outside of what it has been programmed to ask.

17

explain so that i’m clear on what you mean here.

18

Sensory organs
Processing of sensation.

Unique and various,
per species.

We reproduce, consume, that’s a similarity.
We are “life”, that’s a similarity.

A question is a reaction.
“Machine” is not a bad word.
“Person” is a strange social arrogance.
All thought is a means to an end.

Just realize where the truth ends and the social rolls begin.

19

.

to which a machine can not do.

true. but in the context of what we are talking about. it is.

explain further

understanding

and that will, in the end be our down fall.
20

If you strip the petals off a rose and strip the leaves off the stem it still is a rose. A rock can be polished, it still is a rock.

What matter is this bit of sticky flesh that crawls with parasites and unknown bits?

Is a mountain still a mountain even if it is beneath the waves of water? It surely does not tower against the horizon.

If broken down to simple programing, then should we not follow that program and ask the questions that we find popping up in our preprogrammed mind and does that mean the answers are preprogrammed? We won’t find that answer til the end if there is an answer.

If you lead me, should you spare me the trials of false leads, I shall be bored, if led to that stark pathway.
Lighten my path with uncertainties and fears so that I may know the fullness of happiness, joy, comfort and truth.
Set forth a guantlet of painful chores that I might strengthen my soul and body into sharper more effecient tools.
Give me a full rose that I may see its end and where it comes from.
A polished rock is its true self inside.
Give me life that I may know living.
I am a machine but, what a machine am I, I am the machine. All else pales or shines beside me.