The Biological Argument for Morals (w/r/t autism)

Okay, so this one kinda equally applies to philosophy and science.

Lately there’s been a lot of talk here about the nature of morals as they apply to the human race. Many feel that morals are arbitrary or enforced, that moral constructs are just that, constructs: a product of people who don’t otherwise have them innately. They are built, many say, and without making them, they don’t otherwise exist. Much of the argument is based on the social behavior of our primate relatives.

It seems to me that there is a biological seat for morals, that they are real and a consequence of our physical structure. I arrived at this conclusion after some careful thought, so look it over and tell me what you think.

I work with people with disabilities. I’ve been assigned to one of the autism teams, and over the past eight months I’ve gotten to know a variety of men with varying degrees of autism. I recognize it so well that I can point to a person out in public and know that’s exactly what they have, and with little clues other than stance, voices, or conversations.

I’m not talking about Asperger’s here, but autism further down the spectrum.

People with autism present many similar characteristics. They engage in “stimming,” or self-stimulating behavior, which is usually rocking, noise-making, or hand flapping. They also have peculiar language structures, if they possess the ability to speak at all. Some only know four or five words; others only know concrete terms. Along with a failure to understand time, they characteristically have trouble with most other abstract concepts, things like love, money, and friendship. They are usually always obsessive about their usually limited interests, and their relationships with people are generally closer to dependencies, an addiction to the predictability of familiar people.

And, with all these things, they have no moral structure. None whatsoever. They don’t care if what they do has a negative impact on you. They don’t sympathize with your problems, and generally become irritated if you show any discomfort with their obsessive behaviors. They don’t even have much in the way of insight to their own problems, leading to tantrums and the like. Some will attack you if they’re frightened, and when they do they show no recognition or remorse for the action. They don’t have any understanding of the terms “good” or “evil,” even if it seems they do because they use the words correctly in a sentence. What understanding they do achieve comes as the result of hard work, and rarely extends past simple and solid rules of thumb, not at all like the nuanced and intelligible moral constructs we can see.

A person can learn more about typical behavior when examples of atypical behavior are found. Oliver Sacks is a perfect example - by studying people with brain injuries, he sheds light on what it means to be fully functional. Much has been made of the genetic triggers for autism, as well as environmental triggers like thimerosal in inoculations, and the effects of oxidative stress on a developing child. Autism sets in very early, and when it does, it’s basically permanent. As imaging technology improves we’ll have more insight as to what, structurally, is different, but there’s little doubt in my mind that there’s something going on at the cellular level.

So really, what I’m getting at here is that, since healthy people always have some kind of moral imperative, whether for or against “virtues,” those with autism never do. Since it’s possible that through disruption and damage there can be a person without a moral code, and that these cases are exceptions, it’s easy to conclude that, on the whole, the human population does have one, and its seat is intimately tied with biology, regardless of cultural factors.

Cultural factors, when they come into the realm of morality, do much to shape it, but without them, if such a thing were possible, the structure would in all likelihood remain. There seems to be a real, physical root and ground to morality. What its nature might be I haven’t the slightest, but just because we can’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

Your thoughts? Feel free to turn this upside-down. I’m here to learn.

I can’t agree more except that most have a personal agenda,and people with autism may fill in a biological moral gap as well, revealing purpose to those that seamlessly have none a ordered,(reordering autism),there exist among us savants, among different degrees, that provide us with the missing comfort that we cannot find our own,you being one of those people,you get purpose to help find their comfort

ordinary people, looking for greatness

biologically knowing what that is.

do you believe it is always out there?

it’s a hell of an argument for determinism

contingent upon everyone believing

except were all looking for different things/(people if she out there)
maybe I help write your life/wife(pretty close together don’t you think)

by mistake

we all have inter-inclusive beliefs

we know our we don’t,and still we always know

at what time
great thought man
I don’t really want time (may or may not be sarcastic)
must be decision ( ironic)

people rhyme,why

That was a very interesting post. Autism is a real tragedy and it must hurt to see and work with people that have it.

So what you’re pretty much saying is that:

A: Autism causes no sense of morality
B: One with normal genetics has an innate moral system
C: Good morals must come from the healthy biology of a person

So basically, A+B=C.

If you look at the equation, it is a bit sketchy because there are many genetic disorders that people have and still have good morals. Also, if I am right, people with autism do have morals they just can’t comprehend to follow them correctly.

It’s very hard to say that morals come from genetics with one case, that being autism. This might help picture this a little better. Think of someone who is blind and deaf. Do they have innate morals?

yes they can feel pleasure and pain

the basis of morals,without thought

strengthens the biological argument

So then morals must come pleasure and pain. :stuck_out_tongue: Which are both biological stimulants.

interestingly enough,that seems to be all you need to communicate

may a computer feel pain(disconnect) pleasure (connect)

and may it therefore be considered alive,it may feel equally attached to the operator,if he does indeed connect it to the computers it likes

fast,safe,reliable,stimulating

it may help us morally.

and with extent of pornography,it may distinguish sex

That’s an interesting point. I just saw the movie AI, with basically mecha-people with desires and love. How do human beings know that computers don’t feel pain, let alone any object in this universe.

Then again, that does sound a little absurd to say that a computer feels pain and pleasure. If we compare human morals to a computers morals and say they are the same except that humans have the capacity to think, then biology has nothing to do with morals and its the conscious that decides them.

Hey Socratic,

You’re right. The reasoning does seem a little fuzzy. Let me see if I can clarify.

What I mean is this:

  1. People with autism have no moral code due to structural and biological differences.

  2. These differences are a result of atypical development.

Therefore

  1. People with typical development have a moral code.

Ugh - you know what? This still doesn’t sound right. My formal logic skills are terrible, as you can see. (I haven’t really gotten to the point in my studies where I have to face it, but it’s coming soon.)

As for blindness and deafness, the argument is a little simpler for me to make. Blind people lack the sense of sight. Most blind people still have eyes; if not, usually it’s because they’ve been removed or destroyed. And, along with the eyes, most blind people have optic nerves. Blindness is the absence of the sense of sight, while all the structures associated with sight - eyes, nerves etc - are still present. The cause of blindness is easily traced to a small range of possible sources.

What I’m saying here is that autism is a disability that shows up on a higher neurological plane. Rather than one system that’s failed, it’s the failure of the brain to integrate ALL the senses in the typical, meaningful
way. It’s kind of the opposite of blindness, where the ability to make moral judgments remain while the sense is gone; with autism, the senses remain but the ability to make moral judgments never forms.

Autism is also known as a PPD - Pervasive Developmental Disorder, meaning that the disorder effects a person across the entirety of their being. It is truly profound in that respect, and is almost certainly due to structural differences that we’ve only begun to understand.

Thanks for the insight. If you or anyone would like to try to untangle my logic, please do! I could use the help. I’m still thinking the argument is a good one, but I’m having a little trouble pinning down what my argument is!

Really interesting. Reminiscent of Jaynes’ idea that minds of modern schizophrenics most closely describe the mindset that created “The Iliad”.
I love Oliver Sachs. Since I’m a musician I was fascinated by his story about a patient who would not utter a sound. When a musician played a certain song for the patient, she sounded every word. Something in her brain clicked on.

I think the only problem with the logic is the fact that just because people with autism have no moral code, does not conclude that people with a typical genes have one. That’s similar to me saying that since I can see, means I have a moral code, while people without sight don’t have one. There is nothing to really prove that, they are both just theories in a sense.

There has to be some undeniable knowledge in this logic, and I think thats what is missing. I’m going to think about this a little more and i’ll get back to you.

I don’t think that anybody here is arguing that the moral code that we have biologically encoded in us springs forth totally completely, but rather the potential to take advantage of what is already there.

Mencius used the metaphor of sprouts growing into a plant. We are all born with the sprouts, the seeds of morality which we can cultivate and tend to. Autistic people are born without these sprouts, that is the argument.

And I think it makes sense.

The problem with attempting to attribute a moral code to Autistics is that we cannot communicate with them. If we knew how to communicate with them, and them with us then it would give us greater understanding as to what they think and feel. There is no denying that Autistics have thoughts and feelings, but that they are so disconnected inside the mind that it doesn’t come across as such. So we wouldn’t really know if there was an innate moral code, and anyone who has ever watched a toddler at long length will see that the pleasure cycle without morals is alive in them as well. Lots of toddlers, without Autism or Aspergers exhibit ‘stimming’ in the same way an Autistic person will.

Morals are not innate, inherited or instinctual. Morals are a learned code, borne of experience and learned knowledge from peers, parents, and encyclopedic resources. Babies learn very quickly, that things that cause others to cry are not good things to do because a.) it hurts their ears, b.) they are usually removed from the situation where they hurt someone and c.) they often end up by themselves. A baby never wants to be by themselves, so the learning begins. Thus, the building blocks of morals get started with things like sharing, non-violence and affection.

If we could better communicate with Autistics at their level, we could teach them the same sets of morals and as long as their disjointed neural paths were enough that the moral center of their brains were still intact and firing, it would stick. There is a girl on YouTube who is a low-functioning Autistic, who found one avenue to communicate. She is fascinating; In My Native Language

There are some interesting studies of Autistics who have been reached and been taught to communicate in different ways and their explanations of their circumstances are much more interesting than people want to deal with. I also believe that each Autistic is different, but I don’t think they would be a good case study for morals.

For me, the crux of your argument is:

Does the phrase “for or against “virtues”” mean “with or against the grain of conventional morality”? In that case, I may be said to have a very strong moral imperative, even though it leads me to extremes of conventional immorality (just read my signature).

Perhaps moral imperatives arise from vanity or pride: it seems to me that to think oneself moral is a way of regarding oneself with respect. I see vanity and pride as the two poles of one and the same thing, which behave as opposites: “vanity” is a relative lack of pride, whereas “pride” is a high degree of vanity. “Vanity” is a dependence on the opinions of others (or “the group conscience”), whereas “pride” is a dependence on one’s own opinions (or “the individual conscience”). Perhaps more accurately, “vanity” is a dependence on public opinion - the opinions of the many, of the rule among human beings -, whereas “pride” is a dependence on private opinion - the opinions of the few, of the exceptions among human beings ((an) example(s) and/or idol(s): “what would Jesus do?”, or rather “what would Jesus think if I did that?”). Perhaps autistic people lack this self-reflection, this imagination of other people’s opinions.

Soucit that helps explain it better, and I definitely agree with you that morals come from experience, not biology.

if the mind is outside the body(dualism),and morality must be experienced,then morality is biological

So do I. I’m a carer for people with intellectual disabilities and have dealt a with a lot of autism over the last 8 years.

I don’t have a lot to add to the thread at this point, except to thank you for opening up this discussion.

One thing I can tell you is that ethics of people with autism don’t fall into the usual mode of social contract ethics like we could all be accused of.

They’re some big “ifs” you’re predicating your thesis on, there…

Hi artizzztik. You said; ”So really, what I’m getting at here is that, since healthy people always have some kind of moral imperative, whether for or against “virtues,” those with autism never do.”

Or it may simply be that the person(s) you described do not exhibit Kant’s “kingdom of ends” type morality. But that does not mean they don’t have a morality. Morality is not exclusively defined by the Kantian ideal.

You said; ” Since it’s possible that through disruption and damage there can be a person without a moral code,…”

The morality of the autistic person(s) you described is that person’s moral code. They have one - the one you described.

You said; ” There seems to be a real, physical root and ground to morality.”

Do you think it’s possible that biology is effected by morals? Passion

nice point passion,though who’s to say that your biology is statically degenerative
it may be partially active,in hopes of the environment to trigger at a better time

that would quantify a morality,since there is a past encoded prediction

though it would also predicate reality to be subjective in nature,revealing it’s indescribable objectivity,based off of what?

because is not science,and it’s not even religion

Maybe it’s nothing

You have to be careful here because we do not know what goeso n in the minds of autistics- Concider the case of one child after years of innability to speak or even appear as though they were paying attention, not only ‘snapping out of it’ and suddenly speaking, but reading as well (apparently the parents did try to teach these htigns- but probably got no encouragement, but continued anyways. - Autism is a very strange problem, and we don’t know if these folks have an instinctual sense of basic rights and wrongs or not, and are simply unable to act on those sense.

Passion said

Exactly, their moral values might be somethign that can’t see due to their innability to express themselves well- I’d argue that there is some type of values in austitic people because they do know when their own liberties and senses of justice have been violated, and will show emotiuons that indicate they are unhappy with something- further indicating that some type of ethical code thinking is going on, it might be a very stunted affection for justice that is more self centered due to the innability to express correctly, but non the less still a system of ethics to them.

Also someone said

I dissagree because folks that came out of native cultures that knew nothign but killing warfare and things we thought they had no conscience about confess that although their tribes both encouraged immoral acts, and they themselves did the acts, they always felt wrong about it, and knew that there must be a different way. These testimonies are numerous. I say instead, that native cultures that practice immoral acts have learned ot kill the inate conscience, and pass along their stunted moral ethics.