The Biological Robot Dilemma

[Daktoria]

Let us say we have a robot. This robot is life-threatening. Presumably, you’re allowed to destroy it to defend your own life.

Now, let’s say we have a cyborg. This cyborg is still life-threatening. The only difference is its become slightly more anthropocentric, but presumably, you’re still allowed to destroy it to defend your own life.

Now, let’s say we have an actual person.

This person has self-objectified oneself to the point of denying free will, and claims that your existence is intrinsically provocative. Therefore, it is life-threatening. For sake of argument, we’re going to assume you may still defend yourself.

However, this is when things get complicated.

Now, let’s assume that the person-robot is not alone. Let’s assume the person-robot exists among a hive, and that this hive deems you provocative because according to its biological programming AKA emotions, they feel you don’t belong. That is because you don’t conform to the norm, you are wrong.

In turn, the hive becomes dysfunctional, but it makes your live miserable for what’s basically no reason (unless you believe in intelligent design, but I’m going to assume you don’t). In turn, the hive becomes stubborn. It says that until you conform to the norm, the hive will continue to make your life miserable even though you’re not at fault for the hive’s programming.

The hive is more than you, and because more is greater than less, we’re going to assume that even though you may defend yourself that you can’t.

How should the dilemma be resolved without you enduring humiliation of either conforming to an arbitrary norm without consent or running away?

[Moreno]

@Daktoria

Now, let’s assume that the person-robot is not alone. Let’s assume the person-robot exists among a hive, and that this hive deems you provocative because according to its biological programming AKA emotions, they feel you don’t belong. That is because you don’t conform to the norm, you are wrong.

In turn, the hive becomes dysfunctional, but it makes your live miserable for what’s basically no reason (unless you believe in intelligent design, but I’m going to assume you don’t).

In turn, the hive becomes stubborn. It says that until you conform to the norm, the hive will continue to make your life miserable even though you’re not at fault for the hive’s programming.

Now because the hive is more than you, and because more is greater than less, we’re going to assume that even though you may defend yourself that you can’t.

How should the dilemma be resolved without you enduring humiliation of conforming to an arbitrary norm without consent?

Ooh, creepy, you’ve been surveilling me. Though most of the time the hive is not 100% sure I am not a member. I say this without pride obviously, since it means I hide to a great degree. That said, I Think you stacked the situation too strongly to work well with the last question. The hive has more Power, outnumbers you and is intent on getting you to conform. It seems to me you cannot resolve the dilemma, unless some hitherto unmentioned factor is brought in. But in Life, the hive is, well, fairly robotic. This means that it can, to some degree be controlled. And since part of the programming of the robots is to not really notice how violent and scared they each are, there is some swingroom via pretending, lying, distracting, shifting focus on them, triggering their fears about themselves without seeming to, playing them off against each other, avoiding them and so on.

[Daktoria]

Moreno, the point is how do you play the hive against itself?

[Moreno]

@Daktoria

Moreno, the point is how do you play the hive against itself?

It is a fucking hard battle, that needs to be said at the outset. For me that is. And I Think for anyone who could identify with your way of describing it, it would also be a fucking hard battle. There are some things working for us. 1) many hive members do not want to notice difference, it makes them uneasy. So here we sometimes get a pass without even doing something. 2) Sadly, not making Waves, not showing, especially in a strong emotional way, what the hive is making you feel like, often makes them not notice you. 3) As far as i can tell, the drones are often poor philosophers, so one can often turn the criticism back on the drone. One must do this with care. Not as a lawyer, but rather as a ‘confused would-be drone seeking help to understand.’ 4) Lying and pretending. Say it isn’t the case. pretend you are in the hive. I find this necessary at work, dealing with government agencies, banks, other Corporations, police, etc. 5) find people who react the same way to the hive and commiserate. This can take the edge off and you are less likely to explode or start Crying where you definitely should not do either of these things.

I might be able to brainstorm or tell some stories if a specific Concrete hive vs. individual conflict was brought up.

[zinnat]

@Daktoria

Moreno, the point is how do you play the hive against itself?

Well, there are only three options available-

1. Try to change youself according the hive.
2. Try to change hive according to you.
3. If you do not want or unable to do either of these two, simply leave the hive and try to built a new one.

You may choose anyone of these three whichever suits you best.

With love,
sanjay

[Moreno]

@zinnat13

@Daktoria

Moreno, the point is how do you play the hive against itself?

Well, there are only three options available-

1. Try to change youself according the hive.
2. Try to change hive according to you.
3. If you do not want or unable to do either of these two, simply leave the hive and try to built a new one.

You may choose anyone of these three whichever suits you best.

With love,
sanjay

Where is the hiveless Place?

[Flannel_Jesus]

I often get the feeling with some of Daktoria’s posts that he’s just using weird language to talk about actual specific issues in his own life.

Like, ‘the hive’ is his family. And they probably don’t actively deny free will, Daktoria just threw that in for good measure because he doesn’t like it when people do that. And his family is dysfunctional and thinks he’s abnormal for whatever reason and is making his life miserable.

So, like, he’s hiding his personal life in this sort of philosophical-sounding language, because…idk why, maybe he’s embarrassed to just directly talk about his own life? Idk. It’s all quite strange.

[zinnat]

@Moreno

@zinnat13

@Daktoria

Moreno, the point is how do you play the hive against itself?

Well, there are only three options available-

1. Try to change youself according the hive.
2. Try to change hive according to you.
3. If you do not want or unable to do either of these two, simply leave the hive and try to built a new one.

You may choose anyone of these three whichever suits you best.

With love,
sanjay

Where is the hiveless Place?

Moreno,

One has find or create one.

If one is unable or unsuccessful in doing so, then he/she has to choose between the first and second option. There is no other way out.

But, i am sure if one try hard enough, then he/she would be able to find such hive, which suits his/her nature, even if he/she does not find a hiveless place.

with love,
sanjay

[Kriswest]

A single germ can change a body. You don’t change the hive you change those around you and they will change those around them and so on. Be the germ.

[zinnat]

@Kriswest

A single germ can change a body. You don’t change the hive you change those around you and they will change those around them and so on. Be the germ.

Agreed.
That is precisely how it should be done.

with love,
sanjay

[Kriswest]

Thank you, peaceful ways tend to be more effective. All of the religious people in my life accept and respect my Atheism, because I accept and respect their nonatheism. It took patience to get a few to quit trying to convert me but, give love and respect and you will receive it back from the worthy ones. All their converting attempts were done because they care for me. I find it heartwarming and flattering.

[Moreno]

@zinnat13

Moreno,

One has find or create one.

Yes, I understood that is what you meant. But there are no countryless places. So wherever one sets up, one is within the jurisdiction of at least one government and likely several (local, regional, national). And then there are private entities with tremendous amounts of Power, pretty much everywhere.

But, i am sure if one try hard enough, then he/she would be able to find such hive, which suits his/her nature, even if he/she does not find a hiveless place.

Some of us are not drones.

[Moreno]

@Flannel Jesus

I often get the feeling with some of Daktoria’s posts that he’s just using weird language to talk about actual specific issues in his own life.

Like, ‘the hive’ is his family. And they probably don’t actively deny free will, Daktoria just threw that in for good measure because he doesn’t like it when people do that. And his family is dysfunctional and thinks he’s abnormal for whatever reason and is making his life miserable.

So, like, he’s hiding his personal life in this sort of philosophical-sounding language, because…idk why, maybe he’s embarrassed to just directly talk about his own life? Idk. It’s all quite strange.

I Think this is true. But I came to like that. Because first you get this abstract and usually unique set of parameters. You fuss around with these for a while, and then, at least sometimes if not usually, he brings in the Concrete situation. Then you have to recalibrate. I do treat his posts as very much calls to brainstorming, but when I take them in this way, I find them quite fun and interesting. Also, his take on what analogy or what abstract terms fit the Concrete situation are generally rather idiosyncratic, in any case not mine. But that’s good as far as I am concerned. Diversity in ideas is a plus. Or, then, we could go to a thread where people are discussing whether atheism is a religion or what is meant by ‘free’ in free will.

[zinnat]

@Moreno

Yes, I understood that is what you meant. But there are no countryless places. So wherever one sets up, one is within the jurisdiction of at least one government and likely several (local, regional, national). And then there are private entities with tremendous amounts of Power, pretty much everywhere.

Agree with that.

But, the point is that why challenge the mightiest one in the first attemt? Concentrate on smaller likewise entities or even individuals initially and then slowly expands your reach as Kris pointed out.

@Moreno

Some of us are not drones.

I agree with that too or rather it should be said that most of us are not drones.
But, due to vast availability of the different types of beehives, one can still find likewiseness, if the effort is there.

with love,
sanjay

[Moreno]

@zinnat13

Agree with that.

But, the point is that why challenge the mightiest one in the first attemt? Concentrate on smaller likewise entities or even individuals initially and then slowly expands your reach as Kris pointed out.

Oh, I agree. I am not recommending challenging the mightiest. I was mainly reacting to what seemed overly optimistic in your post. I don’t Think the option is available any more to set up an separate society.

[Stoic_Guardian]

@Daktoria

Let us say we have a robot. This robot is life-threatening. Presumably, you’re allowed to destroy it to defend your own life.

Now, let’s say we have a cyborg. This cyborg is still life-threatening. The only difference is its become slightly more anthropocentric, but presumably, you’re still allowed to destroy it to defend your own life.

Now, let’s say we have an actual person.

This person has self-objectified oneself to the point of denying free will, and claims that your existence is intrinsically provocative. Therefore, it is life-threatening. For sake of argument, we’re going to assume you may still defend yourself.

However, this is when things get complicated.

Now, let’s assume that the person-robot is not alone. Let’s assume the person-robot exists among a hive, and that this hive deems you provocative because according to its biological programming AKA emotions, they feel you don’t belong. That is because you don’t conform to the norm, you are wrong.

In turn, the hive becomes dysfunctional, but it makes your live miserable for what’s basically no reason (unless you believe in intelligent design, but I’m going to assume you don’t). In turn, the hive becomes stubborn. It says that until you conform to the norm, the hive will continue to make your life miserable even though you’re not at fault for the hive’s programming.

The hive is more than you, and because more is greater than less, we’re going to assume that even though you may defend yourself that you can’t.

How should the dilemma be resolved without you enduring humiliation of either conforming to an arbitrary norm without consent or running away?

Genocide?

[Kriswest]

Actually Moreno we can still set up a separate society. It just takes more than what most want to do. It takes risks, danger, energy, perseverance, strength, etc. We have actually become spoiled and lazy until absolute need arises. To change a hive is far easier if one wishes to expend less of the above. I think they call it grassroot movements.

[Moreno]

@Kriswest

Actually Moreno we can still set up a separate society. It just takes more than what most want to do. It takes risks, danger, energy, perseverance, strength, etc. We have actually become spoiled and lazy until absolute need arises. To change a hive is far easier if one wishes to expend less of the above. I think they call it grassroot movements.

Which would be labelled terrorist today and shut down so fast it would make your lawyer’s accountant’s calculators spin.
To be separate you need land. Taking any land, anywhere, and saying the laws of the country that Thinks it owns that land do not apply will be seen as an act of war or terrorism and you will be shut down. To stay within the laws defeats the purpose, then you are still in that original country and are a regular Citizen, subject to laws you better follow.

[Kriswest]

Why would you take land? Purchasing works or technology exists to turn inhospitable unclaimed parts to manageable. How about the oceans, ships or underwater. There are ways.Difficult as hell which is why no one will do it.