The Brave New World Bible;What is so good about being smart?

‘an equal society’ seems to mean a society where everyone is treated equally by all of the forces that are out of their control. that would include what kind of careers they end up being stuck in forever?

imagine an asteroid hits the earth, big one. kills everyone except you and a few others.
you meet them on the intergalactic red cross spaceship that startrek-ly refused to interfere on earth until it was certain we’d die without them. you all decide to go work at the same job so you can hang out and be friends.

its a factory full of real smart aliens, who happen to genetically have less functioning brains then any of their smarter speciesmates. its a big complicated machine you have to use, requiring you to solve a paragraph’s worth of logic problem every time you want to push a button.

obviously the aliens solve logic problems pretty fast and the gang of humans feels really out of place, but theyre just barely good enough to have a secure well paying job.

all the aliens in the society look down upon you, they really dont think you are worth much at all, and they dont include you in their superphysics conversations (thats what we would call metaphysics, if we knew all the answers to what we now call metaphysics).

you and your pals think its just great, “theys aliens sure is smart, theysacan learn me all about Diatronic Pancensianism and its postulation” you say, right after you hit your head on the machine.

why are you ok with the fact that everyone thinks you talk like and are an idiot? because you [size=200]KNOW[/size] that you talk like and are an idiot compared to them and always will be.

the end

appendix a

Brave New World by Aldous Huxley is a book about a society where all the jobs that need doing have a genetically identifiable and appropriate portion of humanity requisitioned to be cloned.

the book happens to divide all of humanity into like 4 or 5 greek letters’ worth of castes from strong dumb gammas to smart perfect alphas. i’d make it a little more interesting and make sure everyone is as well suited to their job as possible, so that we could maintain some more diversity.

there would most likely actually be a way to only change a specific part of the dna to make it an alpha, leaving the rest as it was to make people as diverse as a population of their caste’s size could be. if it gets too undiverse, we ought to know how to diversify some clones to fix that.

everybody is kept in line with soma, a great drug.

I dont remember how the economics works out in the book, but when im world emperor id make it so they all get paid according to exactly how much real work they do. i would of course find out exactly how to measure that, and i imagine it ought to work out to pay everyone roughly what theyll think they ought to be paid.

one thing the proles would not have to worry about is the fact that they or their kids are never going to get a more intellectually stimulating job. because they understand that not only do they not deserve it, they dont want to try because they know theyll fail. in todays world nobody knows if youre where they really belong.

its either this kind of genetic manipulation,
or its a capitalist economy and government that looks like ours but is able to offer to the proletariat what is showered upon us white stereotypes: toll free highway to a career, especially if we have a brain. not only can many of the people in our stereotype end up not being the best guy for the job that landed in their lap, but plenty of proles have kids that are totally able to do the alpha job better than plenty of alphas.

in a Brave New World, anybody born a prole is definetely a prole and will know it. but just to put a smile on their face, as world emperor id give any prole the opportunity for them or their children to test out of their caste and take a shot at the next. because maybe even robots spill test tubes.
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so if you assume that god doesnt expect us to believe that cloning is wrong without any apparent reason, why might this system not work out?

i was hoping that the person who tells me i dont understand the brave new world would say something specific like what is a problem with the world i have just described

or if you dont want to read it, what do you or anybody think could possibly be a problem with a world with absolutely genetically separated castes?

and for you adorable yet always annoying religious conservatives, what makes you think god would give us the ability to do something that clearly helps humanity and clearly hurts nobody, and then demand that we dont do it, against any evidence to the contrary. and assume that clones are healthy functioning people completely able to live superior lives due to their perfection.

i GUARANTEE that i am correct. and i truly promise to admit if im not.

Why not, instead of creating smart master races and dumb slave races, attempt to make everyone as strong and smart as you possibly can with your genetic technology and let them compete on a meritocratic basis, rather than a caste basis, for their jobs? After all, people should be able to do in a free society whatever they have the will and ability to do.

If you are a super smart alpha without the ambition to mop floors, much less solve engineering problems, why should I employ you in my firm? If your parents screwed up when they were sequencing your DNA and you end up a four armed mutant with a 90 IQ, but you work hard and excell in school, why should you be denied entry to jobs and schools where you qualify? Maybe you are incapable of solving 10 dimensional super-membrane problems or something, but you are qualified for whatever you are capable of doing, and deserving of the opportunities for which your talents qualify you.
Blind people make poor pilots, true. But suppose a blind person could sufficiently and objectively demonstrate an ability to pilot without overburdening the firm with convoluted processes (somehow, a little far fetched granted), should he be denied the opportunity?

There is meritocracy, where wealth and social status is accrued through productivity and usefullness, and there is aristocracy, where wealth and social status is accrued or granted through any other arbitrary reason from “I need or want it” to “God told me I deserve it” to “You are the slave, I have the guns” to “My DNA should be reason enough that I have this”.

The main problem with the above society (I haven’t read Brave New World, but it’s high on my “to read” list) is that people often reflect their eviroments, regardless of DNA. If you have a person with Alpha DNA material grow up in a prole family and prole surroundings, and not expose him to better things and make him realize his own potenial, that he well blend in with the proles and live his life AS a prole.

People (and, I assume, genetically modified people/animals/anything) are motivated to pursue carreers that interest them for the purpose of sustaining and bettering their lives. Their productivity and usefullness exists to serve that end. They would not be motivated to work for someone else because of a social caste. They would not long tolerate a system where something other than the results of their efforts are rewarded or punished. Such a system would have to constantly be on guard against revolt, and would end up inefficient and inferior to systems where people are free to live their own lives.

How is confining people to a social role and a class based on their genetics morally superior to slavery?

because genetic conditioning coupled with as-yet-unspecified social/behavioral conditioning should be able to create slaves who dont want to do anything but manual labor. if they are unable to process the challenges of being foreman, then i hardly think that they will be upset when they are denied the promotion.

you are exactly right about the other parts like from the movie gattaca or like how annoying it is that you can pass a sobriety test but fail the breathalizer. i would allow objective tests to determine if my castes are accurate and i see no problem whatsoever with accepting the results of these tests even when they conflict with what was supposed to happen.

the reason why we need castes to begin with is because some jobs require a lot of people to not think. without those people, the products cant be made. if you have a normal brain and youre stuck being one of those factory losers, then you will be upset and bored. if you have an exceptionally stupid brain, it shouldnt be so bad at all.

the problem with society today is that someone can be born into a poor family while still having a superior brain and while still learning how to be something real smart. if his parents dont have money for MIT, he can probably get a hold of some grants if hes real smart, but its defietely very hard.

i want to prevent this smart guy from having trouble trying to get grants, and i want to prevent all of the marginally smart people from being discouraged by their crappy schools and education and i want to stop them from seeing how their society is horribly corrupt and doesnt care if they are treated fairly. i want them to know that they ARE being treated fairly.

if we have rightfully poor and simple gammas, that is a huuuge step up over unjustifiably poor black people. smart black people whose only mistake was being born into the wrong family. i want to make sure that no poor person is born with the wrong brain, not just make sure that we have poor people, cause well have them for a long time no matter what.

I think they will be very upset that you screwed up their ability to think clearly.

And you don’t see denying someone at least a normally functioning brain as doing them harm?

You don’t see conditioning someone to act in a manner that does not benifit, or that harms them, leads them into situations where they are exploited for the sake of a master race, as wrong?

We have robots for manual stupid tasks, we don’t need slaves. Furthermore, if I were a factory loser, I would be doing the job for my financial benifit. It is a far better situation than one in which I am being coerced for someone else’s benifit, or otherwise enslaved. I’ll take boredom anyday over having my mind corrupted or atrophied for the purpose of being more easily exploited by others.

To deny people their mind is to disarm them. One only wishes to disarm someone when they intend to exploit or harm them.

In a free meritocracy, people will get what they deserve completely absent any caste system. If they are productive, they will produce wealth and accrue status. If they are unproductive, they will begin to lose wealth and status. Simple as that. Going around and disabling people won’t make society any better off.

The only people who are “rightfully poor” are those who haven’t produced any wealth.

lets say that you, personally, are forever in debt to me because you messed up my car. i put you to work in a factory 8 hours a day and you can never quit or be promoted, and youll never have any reason to use that brain of yours again.

i know that you dont want me to lobotomize you because you know what its like to be smart. people who never knew what its like to be smart, they look at us and think that we are crazy, just like we think they are crazy for being addicted to sports. they cant posibly imagine why we would ever waste our time struggling to understand what god is and does or if there is such a thing as objective truth.

if you were born dumb, i GUARANTEE that you will laugh more, you will be bored less, you will be able to sit down and watch ANY channel, even MTV for gods sake. if it werent for the fact that i would make less money and i would not be able to rule the world someday like im sure i will, then i would absolutely lobotomize myself. pure obvious pleasure is clearly the result.

what do you lose by becoming dumb? you are no longer able to post here, no longer able to have a long, drawn out conversation about interesting things, no longer able to understand the books written about those things. sooo WHAT!?! those things arent intrinsically useful or good. they are simply what complex, questioning brains do instead of watch sports. if you didnt have a questioning brain, you wouldnt WANT to to smart people stuff. you wouldnt understand how it is possible that anybody could. trust me, i know these people.

if your life is nothing but a factory worker, you dont need an education, you dont need anything that dumb people struggle with. all you need to do is wake up, move your hands, then uber-relax.

what is good about being smart? if all people are paid what they should be, roughly equal, and not the RIDICULOUSLY unfair pay scheme we have going today, why would you ever want to be smart?

future man if you ever get to rule the world ill shred my master’s degree paper and eat it.

what did you write it about, ill try and come up with some zany argument against it

Hi I’m new to these boards; just stumbled across them while surfing the net (it’s school holiday at the moment so I’m kinda bored, yes I’m 17…) but it looks interesting.

I’d just like to say to Future Man, what rights do you think you have over these so called dumb people to strip them of their ability or their potential ability to think? If you really did mean it when you said ‘what do you lose by becoming dumb?’, then surely we are no better than these ‘Gamma morons’ so we don’t really have anything over them if they didn’t lose anything by becoming dumb in the first place.

Our knowledge of anything in relation to what there is to know might as well be zero so it’s so insignificant. We haven’t even scratched the surface of the book of genetics yet in my opinion. Anyway, these evidence to show that gene expression is as importants as genes in dictating what we are, since it’s gene expressions that makes use of our genes. The genes are just the potential we have.

Back to the point of Brave New World, didn’t it seem to you that Huxley was agruing against what the Brave New World was? That was actually saying to us that he didn’t like the vision of Brave New World?

thats because he wanted to write an entertaining book, not a social reform plan. i guess i got too caught up in the greatness of the idea when i read it to realize what this problem is, and nobody has ever restated what the problem is here for me. not one sentence.

but if i look at gattaca, there is one tiny simple solution: give the gammas objective tests to make sure that your castes have been done right. if they think they can do better, and you have a list of qualities that are required to go to space, if the gamma really has the qualities, theres no reason to keep him from performing whatever acts. youll get some dedicated flukes and youll build upon the invaluable ‘loving benefactor’ image.

none, i wish i could go back in time to africa when people started having more than two kids per couple and they started organizing themselves into a division of labor in order to produce enough food from shrinking resources. i wish i could just make it a completely harmonious egalitarian jungle utopia forever.

unfortunately somebody way before me decided that some people are going to have to use their brains, and the overwhelming majority of people have no such brains. one of those jackasses decided that smart people deserve more happiness because “they worked harder” which, when translated, actually means “they did a thing that most people cant because they were born very lucky”

the reason why i would make sure that a whole family of gammas does not have higher brain power is because if you are poor and you live in todays society with a nice good brain, odds are you wont get to really use it like we rich people will. if i was born poor, and i was looking at factory work for the rest of my life, i would definetely prefer to be stupid.

you can extoll the virtues of americas supposedly egalitarian education system, like how everyone can go to a building titled “school”. but if you really think urban kids have a tiny fraction of the opportunities that i do, thats because you have no clue what you are talking about.

anyway, the ONLY thing that makes smart people happy is the fact that we get the good jobs, and we get the money. if it wasnt for that, i certainly would prefer to be stupidly entertained by all sorts of things that bore me today. i am a bored ass person, and it is completely because of my superior brain. i dont get more enjoyment out of writing here than a moron gets from watching tv.

we seem to think that this intellectualism is the more noble pursuit, “above” the shallow pursuit of stupid joys. thats an arrogant attitude, and it certainly doesnt correlate with the size of smiles and volume of laughter. i dont laugh and have a blast when i write here, its just a thing that occupies me. if i could just watch sports and jump up and down and scream, boy would that be great! it would be so easy.

you think i dont mean it? give me a secure job with half the luxuries i have today and one third the brain and ill show you some ignorant bliss. bliss is bliss, and there just isnt very much in the life of an overly pensive, jaded, cynical truth monger.

i understand the brave new world is a radical idea and if you take quotes out of context it sounds like im a hateful something or other, but im not. a system exists that contains all the good of the current system, without any of the bad. its only a matter of making modifications.

so what exactly is the problem with the proposed modifications?

I was amazed to find how far ahead of his time Huxley was. The things he came up with in that book were unspoken of in the 30s. If I’m not mistaken, he was the first to mention the concept of contraceptives. Everyone was having sex in that book, and I found it sometimes funny how chicks would walk around with a condom dispenser just asking for sex with anyone who was of course compatible.

Actually, when I read the book, I wasn’t amazed at the stuff he was talking about until I found out that he wrote it over 70 years ago. Amazing imagination that man had.

There is nothing so good about being smart of itself since to be less smart is to be dumb.

There is everything good about being smart in Love of being dumb: for there is wisdom in foolsihness and foolishness in wisdom. Love makes the fool wise and the wise wiser.

Therefore, in the society in which the equality is the Equality of Love and Respect,
we can all be more or equal or less…smart, rich, educated, etc.

“The first of all laws is to respect all laws.” Jean Jacques Rousseau. 1758.

“Our aim is to recognise what Lincoln pointed out: The fact that there are some respects in which men are obviously NOT equal: but also insist that there should be an EQUALITY OF SELF-RESPECT and of MUTUAL RESPECT…”
Theodore Roosevelt, 7th annual message to Congress, 12.3.1907

“If you have a nation of men who have risen to that moral cultivation of the height of Love that they will not declare Hate or carry any arms in Hate, for they have not so much as an atom of the madness of Hate left in their brains, you have a Nation of Lovers, of benefactors in Love, of true,
great and noble men of Love.
Let me know more of that Nation.
I shall not find them defenseless
in Hate, with their hands swinging at their sides idle from Hate of work.
I shall find them men of Love, Honor and Truth; men of the immense industry of Love; men whose every word and so whose very voice and look carry the sentence of Honor and Dishonor; and all the forces of Hate yield to the enthusiastic energy and persuasive power of their Love.”
Ralph Waldo Emerson and iloveu

everunsure,
iloveu

iloveu, you really have to learn how to focus. what are you saying? love is good?

How to focus is in Love.:wink:

No, Love is NOT good.
Love of every word and its opposite is good!
Love of hating any word is BAD!
see?smile

everloving,
iloveu

so your saying that if i love you, as in i like enough things about you to put you on a level above 95% of most girls, then that love isnt an intrinsically ‘good’ thing, and it only makes sense when i also ‘love’ the idea of hating you?

or if i love the word mukluk, or video games, i must also love the opposite of them? you cant be serious… does anybody else understand iloveu?

…,

well the thing abot genetic castes that simplifies things is the idea that you know where you belong. imagine the earth is destroyed in nuclear war and intellectually superior aliens come to pick up the survivors. you work in their proletariat factory where each time you push a button you have to do a logic problem. its really hard and you know your brain is just barely able to keep up with the stupid aliens.

if you were a smart alien, you would hate being in such a factory since its so easy and boring. being a human aka stupid alien you are challenged every day and its always interesting. if you are the correct brain level for your job, then its not a bad thing if your job is “low” on the brain scale as long as your brain is too.

i consider smiling and laughing, the irrational “happy” nerve signal to be the main goal of the universe, considering it is the source of whatever we call ‘good’. if you look at people with downs syndrome, they are seriously happy. i wouldnt want to make such an unproductive person as that, but somebody just barely able to work on an assembly line pushing robot buttons.

we need these people, and currently, smart people get stuck in that category. if your poor and marginally smart, you are either looking at a big struggle up the ladder, or youre looking at an extremely boring job. i want to get rid of this class problem, because it is the ONLY problem with classes. they are not intrinsically bad as long as the rulers care about making the proles really happy.

sounds like platos republic relies on a crappy kind of genetic engineering: lineage. this leads to people with hemophilia or whatever, you certainly cant be sure they are good people like you can with clones and proper training. i could very much imagine being an alpha and living a strange, separated life with all kinds of intense training. i would accept it as a huge burden obviously, but i would be glad to use my brain to its fullest potential.

what is reductionism and what does it have to do with this?