Actually no. Don’t mean to be pedantic here but I said inside your heart. I eluded to the fact that our conscience is a voice. But yes, you get the picture. As for the protein argument it is a lazy one. I have been vegetarian for many years and I most certainly am not lacking in protein. The body does not need protein it needs amino acids which the body will use to produce it’s own protein.
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I respect non meat eaters and meat eaters alike. 99 percent of meat eaters have no malice towards animals infact most truly respect and care for animals.
It is a not proven long term yet how a strict vegetarian diet compares to a omnivor diet. If you feel comfortable and more healthy eating vegies only, that is great. If I am eating with you I will out of respect, restrict my diet to vegie fare, so that you won't feel ill or bad in any way. I have done so and will always strive to do so. That is, if you show respect for my diet and not lecture me on the evils of meat. If you do lecture, I guarantee I will order the largest and rarest cut of meat and enjoy it to the hilt. If I can't eat it all I will doggie bag it and bring it home to my 30 cats kids and 8 dogs kids.
For my diet I won’t eat strictly vegies, my system seems to burn them up too fast I can eat seven hearty courses of vegie fare and in 2 hours or so be starving again. It is too hard on my system and I prefer adding that heavy cut of meat to keep my body busy for awhile. Not to mention I really like meat, as much as I like vegies.
I’m reminded of a thread discussing the sentience potential of a potato. For some reason, attempting to marry morality to any form of taking in nutrients seems like a an endless trip into oblivion… There is just so much we don’t know… Is eating the five grains killing potential life?
Hello F(r)iends,
When vegetarians start protecting the rights of unborn children the way they protect a fucking cow I might start paying attention to the arguments regarding the equality of our brethren animals… Of course, when these vegans and vegetarians start making the case that animals are our equals I would like to test the theory by throwing them in with a lion, a tiger, or a shark and seeing just how equal we really are… When these people start arguing that it is healthier for our planet to eat vegetables I will argue that it is healthier still if they committed suicide… Afterall, what could help conserve “our mother earth” more than that?
I never seem to have a problem with flies either… I guess it’s cause the various poisons I leave out for them around the camp keeps them busy. Just remember people: your survival means some other life MUST die, your happiness rests on some other life’s misery. Do you suddenly get picky because one type of life walks and another just stands there?
The only good enough reason to kill is to do it and have the power to do it.
-Thirst4Veal
Post Script:
What’s the best part of eating a rare steak?
Licking the blood off the plate and laughing at the bum that can’t have any.
The ancients began the tradition of saying Grace, not to thank God, but to thank the animal that was feeding them. Its sacrifice was a sacred thing to them. They understood the simple truth that Mother Earth feeds us, as we feed her, and they were grateful. I think this idea has unfortunately been lost over time. We’re all part of the same living organism. We take from her, we give to her. Ultimately our bodies return to her. In the final analysis nothing is created or destroyed permanently.
As for the comparisons to cannibalism, we don’t eat each other because of any “moral†right. There are no objective moral rights. The reason we don’t eat each other is because we have decided to defend ourselves from cannibalism, the same way that we defend ourselves from murder or theft.
As humans we are under constant attack from a million different kinds of microbes. Animals are under constant attack as well, from similar microbes, and from other animals. Not killing an animal for food will not alter the fate of that animal. It will, in fact, most likely be killed for food (by another animal and, ironically, in a manner much less compassionate than if a human killed the animal for food). This is nature’s way. This cycle is how Mother Earth sustains herself. We are an inevitable part of this delicate and beautiful balance, an act that has played out over millennia. We cannot divorce ourselves from nature anymore than we can divorce ourselves from ourselves. We are a part of her.
And so we kill rats and termites that infest our homes, we step on the cockroach, we wash our hands to kill bacteria, we slap at the mosquito that lights on our arm, we chase the rabbit out of our garden, depriving it of an easy food source. Where do we draw the line, and why?
As the ancients before us, we should show compassion for the animal as it gives its life to sustain us, and respect for Mother Earth.
Hello F(r)iends,
I don’t know what it is about you Jerry, but everytime you “speak up” I am compelled to listen. You make very good points. Thanks for helping me see a bigger part of the picture.
Sincerely,
-Thirst
Well said Jerry. I wouldn’t have much of a problem eating a dead animal as it fell before me - but buying meat from the current meat industry in the states or my country is akin to suporting such massive slaughter on such a large scale that any last remnants of respect we have for the world (and some argue (Kant for one), for humanity) simply drain away with the blood and offal.
I guess at times I do forget to thank the chicken lying on my plate for her lovely, tender, and juicy breast, so I take a walk back to the coop and thank her chicks who will be tomorrow’s course in advance. Point well made Jerry.
Hi Will,
It is true that the meat industry leaves a great deal to be desired in its treatment of another living species. One could hope that some of these issues could be addressed. In part, it is the lack of willingness on the part of the consumer to be willing to pay for the added costs of raising food animals in relative comfort that drives the lowest common denominator and the attendant lack of empathy for the animals we raise for food. Sadly, the largest part of the world population is without choice in gathering sustenance. Only in relatively “rich” countries do we enjoy the options. Still, each must make their own choices for their own reasons. I’ve chosen vegetarianism because it is a healthier diet, not because I have saved an animal from death. But my ability to choose is a luxury not afforded many in the world.
That’s certainly true and I’m sure on some level you take some comfort in the knowledge that although not your primary reason for doing so, you are doing something to stick two fingers up at what is a disgusting and unforgiveable industry. I would not be surprised if I am the only person in this discussion who has actually ever spent a good deal of time inside factory farms and slaughterhouses - the lack of which experience inhibits the ability to talk about such.
Hi Will,
I live in a part of the U.S. that was primarily an agriculturally based economy for most of the years I spent growing up. While I managed to avoid working in them, I’ve seen them all. I know what battery raised animals endure. I have also listened to the complaints of how much money a producer lost, and the complaints of the people at the check out at the supermarket over the high meat prices. At least here in the states, prices would have to double to effect any significant change in production practices. Like so many of the ills of industrialized nations, the real costs of ethical business practices are largely swept under the rug in favor of maintaining artificially low prices or artificially high profits. It would seem that greed trumps ethics. Like that is something new… 
Yes and of course, the reduction goes that any support of a capitalist market is support of the same. Ultimately a matter of degree, as you stipulate.
I’m sorry Jerry, but just because the ancients went about killing their meat gratefully, doesn’t make it right. There are many things the ancients did that would be completely unacceptable by today’s standards.
Apart from the fact that the treatment of animals in today’s meat industry is apalling, the fact that animals are bred for their meat is beyond my comprehension.
I’m wondering if there are any among us who can actually look at a newborn lamb and feel the desire to kill it for its meat. Because sincerely if there is even a small doubt in your heart when you look into the eyes of a newborn animal that you may have love and compassion for it, then we all need to introspect ourselves to see what has gone wrong with humanity. It is my opinion that it is our compassion that is missing from this world that the world is as it is today, suffering greatly. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to pour my heart out all over the page, I just feel really strongly about this.
As far as animals killing each other it is possible that just as mankind has lost it’s spiritual centre, lost the righteous path, so have animals. It is not known whether or not animals have always killed each other for food. It may be that as humans have moved away from their hearts, so have animals.
I just cannot look at any animal and see it as food.
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What, specifically, makes it “wrong� Today’s “standards�
This seems arbitrary to me. What makes the newborn lamb somehow more deserving of compassion than the mosquito or the termite or the microbe? Because, from our very limited human perspective, we think it’s cuter somehow?
We’re all part of the same organism. This is what always gets lost in these discussions. Nature is beautiful and perfect. It’s a self-sustaining system, feeding itself. We’re on the inside trying to make sense of it when we need to step outside of it and see it for what it is. It’s a single body using fuel to keep itself alive, as a body sacrifices cells so that other cells may be sustained.
We need a bigger picture.
Hello F(r)iends,
Pleased to meat you…
Everytime I look at a baby lamb I think tender, I think yum, yum, gimme some.
No you have a good point… dinosaurs are faked by anti-god scientists, fossilized records of digested animals are a fraud too. Hell, science is one big conspiracy to eliminate god from our lives!!
-Thirst4SteakJuice
No, it’s not cuter Jerry, but we are able to see it’s purity of heart more easily just as we do with a newborn human baby. But that spirit is the same spirit that grows into an adult and then our judgement becomes clouded.
Just because something has always been done doesn’t make it right Jerry.
Indeed we do. The big picture is so much bigger than our opinions of what it is, so much deeper. It is surely this depth that we are after…
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And if we could remove ourselves for a moment from our human-specific point of view, we would see that this purity of heart exists as much in the microbe and the mosquito as in the newborn lamb. Our taking of nature, yours versus mine, is only a question of degree.
I am the one arguing that there are no objective moral rights. Because something has always been done does not make it right, any more than something disagreeing with “today’s standards†(as you put it) makes it wrong.
Depth, yes, along with a wider understanding. The ability to step back and see the wholeness and completeness that exists within Mother Nature, and to recognize we are but a part of this one body, taking from her and giving to her. Once we grasp this, we can see perhaps the possibility that the meat-eater might not be any less compassionate or moral than the vegetarian, regardless of the implication here to the contrary.
Jerry your single mindedness can only be admired.
No, I did not say that a mosquito is any less pure, I only suggested that we were able to see the purity in a newborn. I don’t think you are listening here or perhaps you are listening with your ipod plugged in to your ears.
Yes mother nature is whole and complete, however, there are abhorant human beings you must agree. For those to carry on because nature is whole and complete or to simply let things be the way they are is a namby pamby ‘spiritualist’ point of view. Sure we are all one, sure. So should I not be responsible for my actions? Should I kill, thus perpetuating killing, or should I become aware of the suffering my actions cause to another sentient being? You must think very highly of your spirit and much less of an animal’s for you to want to kill it for you food. Especially in today’s modern world where it is totally unneccessary to kill for our food. We just gotta go down (English slang) the market where we can get a variety of our vegetables that will nourish our bodies. But no, we must eat meat, meat that has been bred for consumption. Rain forests have been cut down to grow food for these animals, beautiful natural parts of our planet that if used correctly to grow food to actually end world hunger. No Jerry, meat is big business. It’s all about money and greed and hatred and ignorance, it’s not about compassion. No most certainly not.
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I don’t think any of us are carnivors, we are omnivors. Yes I can look at a lamb or a calf and think food I have. If as earlier in this thread some of our brethren creatures are sentient which I know that whales, dolphins are, they seem to have no problems eating meat and they could be classified as our equals or superiors in their mental capacity. If it is OK for them why not us? Do you think they can’t tell the difference between kelp and fish? A few Orca have eaten humans and they have saved humans. Rogue dolphin pods have been known to be violent and kill their own and or eat a human. Note; These dolphin pods are generally young males. this info comes via the discovery channels.
the butchering practices are horrible but, face it, there is no sweet inexpensive method to do such. I am not able to do it so I pay someone else to do it. Just as someone pays me to do things they can’t do. There are facets of society needs that are seemingly inhumane and disgusting yet, without someone willing to do these horrible jobs there will be a break down in certain areas of society.
I applaud your beliefs to be a vegetarian, I think it shows great strength and faith. It shows a gentleness of soul and and love which this world needs more of. You are of a different breed then most and I believe that more are needed. But, not me, I know that eating meat is not going to harm me morally, nor expand my knowledge of the universe or world if I stop eating meat. I care deeply for the world and respect her. But, I die, I am mortal, given a mortal body, given a mortal mind, I don’t think I asked for it. And in this mortal mind and body I believe I need and want meat to sit beside my vegies.
I am a top dog on the food chain and that is utterly acceptable to me and comfortable. Of course if we stopped culling herds of animals and allowed carnivors to breed unchecked then I might not be top dog anymore. I might be a lion or wolf snack. that would be uncool to me, they might enjoy it, I am after all, soft and tender, and with my length of hair they could even floss afterwards.
I hope you get the world you dream of it would be nice.
Yes. Yes, that must be it. I must be listening with my ipod plugged into my ears…
I think highly of the spirit of nature, a spirit I participate in along with the lamb and the mosquito. I am against suffering. It is the compassion and gratitude of the ancients that I respect and regret has been lost. I’m not here to defend the meat industry. Nor am I here to make an argument that we should “let things be the way they are.†I’m not sure how you read that into what I’ve been saying. Plainly spoken, I’m here to say that we cannot separate ourselves from nature. Nature feeds us, we feed nature. We can argue over means, but we cannot change this fact. There is no morality involved in whether we eat meat or not.