As political candidates parade or defend their military service, the American people seem to rely on the idea that those who have served in the military are a special breed of citizen. This service is apparently evidence of a higher commitment to the common good, and of high standards of duty and chivalry. When we praise the soldier, the imagined alternative is the shirker, the lazy, sloppy coward, the man who cares only for his own well being.
All of this is, of course, nonsense. One might as well romanticize cops. We do not select people for the police or the military according to who is most gentlemanly or of the highest character. These “characters†self-select for a variety of reasons, most of which are none too admirable. A career in the military is a last resort for those who have no place in college, in the arts, in sports, or in business. How much lower could one set one’s sights on the spectrum of possible careers? Drug addict? Living on welfare? Sweatshop worker?
With only a moment's reflection it seems obvious that the culture of the military will be a supercharged version of the high school locker room. Pump those boys up with heavy exercise and lots of group “HUAH!â€, then load them up with the latest in killing equipment and give them the power of life and death over people—that’s the character-building experience we find so necessary in our leaders.
I read a description of our soldiers in Afghanistan, interacting with the people. These interactions all centered on the many variations on the word “f**kâ€: “BACK THE F**K OFF YOU MOTHERF**KER!†and such. What else might we have expected? Did we really thing Basic Training was some kind of finishing school, turning out scrupulous gentlemen? The military is apparently quite good at teaching recruits how to use machinery which is complicated, as well as how to follow orders and work together. To expect it to teach our soldiers public relations skills seems a bit much.
So how is it any surprise that our boys treat their prisoners like sub-humans, and don’t think to check their actions against any ideals about “human rightsâ€? At a time when most of the country still seems to be disgusted with all Arabs for “what they did to usâ€, of course the most venomous and desperate for revenge are our pumped-up soldiers, taught to see themselves as saviors of the world.
We should expect officers to know the rules and reign-in their men. We should not expect enlisted men to hold the highest standards for the treatment of the enemy. Nor should we enshrine the military experience as the great path to wisdom and manhood.
Most people don’t see the military as a goal, but as their only resort in a system that prevents them from attaining a college education. Sometimes millitary service is used as a means to obtain a college education. Capitalism forces the lower class into battle while the rich reap the rewards.
Bush went to Yale, but it doesn’t really count 'cause he was high on coke most of the time. Bush didn’t even serve in the military any way, he just got his daddy to put his name on some forms so he would get shot in 'nam.
Kerry went to Harvard, i’m pretty sure.
I totally agree with you though, in a world of international relations and globalization we should praise diplomacy in our leaders. People who care about the good of the world, rather than one country.
I also agree that everyone would be better off if we took a chuck out of our obscenely huge military budget to teach American soldiers how to be decent human beings. But then again, decent human beings don’t kill people.
being that I lurk too much in Mundane Babble I didn’t see this great thread. I might or might not have something valuable to add. In either case here I go.
I hope you are speaking in general terms here. But I look around my workplace and you can generalize and say such a comment. But such wasn’t the case with myself and for many of the Marines I work alongside with.
A lot of these men and women dreamed of being Marines since children. Some actually thought they could do good. I don’t know much on the Navy and Army, but I know that the standards for Marines is a bit higher. So you won’t see much of what you say here.
But what else do you expect? The majority of these guys are from the slums, you are right. But then again they had a choice. And they decided to place their lives on the line and go anyways. You don’t here about the sailors and soldiers that dissappear when it comes time to go. You don’t here about that small percentage that escape to other countries, or purposefully go to jail. We all have choices.
When we are out there we aren’t going to act like Knights in shining armour. We are going to act like what we are. Children in a tough situation. There are 17 year old boys out there right now with higher body counts on their M16 than the average NYPD officer. Boys that hold that on their hearts.
And while a minority of them will fool you with the depths of their perception on life, the majority of them just want to discuss football. And be boys because when those rounds start heading down range, they can’t be.
Fuck you, I don’t care what you expect of me. You’ll be surprised. That Army doggy is one case out of what? A thousand?
Many times I look around and wonder why am I enlisted. What in the world. I don’t relate with any of these people. But then again I’m still a Marine at the end of the day. I’m still Proud. And so are they. We do our job as a big team. I haven’t heard the American people complain yet.
That should have been left to their parents. The taxpayer’s money need to be directed towards the public education system. Where it is needed.
And about that last phrase… have you read Ender’s Game? The same debate about young Andrew Wiggins. He was what the human race needed, but he was too sweet to kill those damn buggers.
I have more repspect for the people that serve, regardless of whether they have to or want to, then some of the people I have met in college who support the war (we know which one) but do not want to see the results of that war because, in their words,
“It is too gruesome”
“I don’t need to see that”
“It might make people think war is bad or something”
“We don’t need to know what really goes on in a war”
I would think that, if someone supports a war, they would at least be willing to see, secondhand, the consequences of their support. But that would probably make Fear Factor appear tame in comparison, and we can’t have that, now can we.
Mark, you seem like a person who likes to read. I sugggest you read robert D Kaplan’s articles in atlantic Monthly and his books
Smooth, you also might really like Robert D Kaplan.
Most people in the States who dismiss soldiers as “dumb poor people” are fools following some type of leftover leftism. Our republic is a helluva lot more complitcated than that. Shit, I even think we should institute two year compulsory Service. It would make the country a lot more polite and interesting.
As a Former U.S. Marine infantryman I would like to first appologise to the censors and then say FUCK YOU! First, ther is no longer a draft beaucse so many people want to serve and defend people like you. Second there has not been anyone forced to join the millitay since the late 1970’s (AKA go to jail or join the millitary). Sure the Marines have a higher standard than the Army, Navy and Air Force, and I can’t talk for them, but every Marine I served with joined for the same reasons, (and keep in mind we were all trained and skilled warriors) we joined to defend those who were unable or unwilling to defend them selves. If you can think of a more noble reason to stay out of the mil;litary please tell me.
The mean age for an enlisted infantryman is 19, so sure they act like kids, sure they like talking about cars, football, and women and pursue all three at will but what do you expect. After all “enlightened” college kids do the same thing. But to call all of them stupid, psycotic, and just slightly above drug addicts is, at best, just plain ignorant. Marines are warriors, we take the job very seriously, if we din’t we die, our friends die. So sure on T.V. the things you see Marines doing may seem brutal and not so nice and polite but remember the T.V. won’t show you the Marines handing out food, medicine, candy to kids and morning lost comrads because those images do not get good ratings and do not sell.
But you know, when it all come down to it, those in the millitary you hate so much are the reason you can post such messages in the first place. I think it is kind of ironic and sad you don’t understand.
to be honest, i don’t understand, to be even more honest, i’m not sad about it at all…
i’m just sad people tend to kill other people and try to justifie it (there may be exceptions but warfare is not one of them)
it is sad that people do kill others. But it is a harsh reality of life. Going around the world and visiting different countries, it opens your eyes. In coming back to the security of the States you notice the simple pleasures that we all take for granted. Countries like Canada, the UK with it’s four countries ( which I still don’t understand ), Japan, Australia, and other major world powers have it so good. And it is the simple damn things too, the things you miss the most when you are taken away from civilization.
A volunteer militia is so far the best humanity can devise to protect these things. Not to get into politics but I know that with not that many wars the military get’s tasked to do some dumb shit. Like stopping drugs, chasing international fugitives, blah ~ blah ~ blah. But we all know that if the top three world powers greatly reduced their military might, some wanna be on a world domination quest will begin his campaigns.
Until the recent conflicts, I would have recommended the military to most young people without a set plan for life. I acknowledge the necessity of committing the odd atrocity and even such things as killing civilians or torturing enemy combatants. If we are to send our young people these horrible depths, however, we must do so only according to the strictest standards.
The attack on Iraq is just a crime, and if soldiers can’t trust the government not to commit such crimes, then it’s no longer a good idea to join the military.
So not only do the failures join the military, but the kids who got it all handed to them do as well, eh? Thanks for the laugh. Something tells me that 99.9% of the kids who join don’t know shit about politics and just want to wave a gun around so they can look cool. But they’d tell you something like: “I joined to help my country,” or “it is my duty.” Bullshit. I’ve never met a soldier who wasn’t posing.
Cry me a river.
Careful, Smooth, Mark pays your bills.
Now drop and give me twenty.
Here, I’ll remind you. To get laid by the girls and be feared by the guys. What, you didn’t think it was that simple? Of course it is.
This is a very contentious issue, simply because our respective countries are currently embroiled in offensive (offensive as in ‘attacking’, not offensive as in ‘unpleasant’, but both definitions are probably appropriate) actions as opposed to defensive. I don’t believe that there is a single person in this forum, regardless of what they have written on this subject, that wouldn’t be overwhelmingly grateful for the presence and defensive actions of the military should our countries be subjected to a military attack or invasion.
I can’t imagine myself joining the military in any form as I am quite selfish about my personal safety. I don’t imagine many people join without understanding the risk to their lives, so it is therefore a selfless act. Now, I’m not saying that people don’t join for many reasons that might include arrogance, ego, uniform fetish ( ) etc, but on some level all of those people, whatever their motives, are risking their lives for a common goal and for their country/the preservation of democracy (and not the pursuit of personal pleasure like, say, those mountain climbers in Touching the Void). The same goes for the police, fire service, etc.
Therefore, regardless of personal opinion about the validity of specific military actions or the behaviour of individuals, surely a basic level of respect must be afforded to military personnel? All of this name calling and bad-mouthing seems a little childish to me.
Everybody take cover!!!
) etc, but on some level all of those people, whatever their motives, are risking their lives for a common goal and for their country/the preservation of democracy (and not the pursuit of personal pleasure like, say, those mountain climbers in Touching the Void). The same goes for the police, fire service, etc.