The charge of relativism

Here is a Guardian article that I just read:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,6000,1352513,00.html

I post this article for a couple of reasons.

The first is that the accusation of relativism is quite popular in philosophy. I think this charge is weak and often excuses the complexity of philosophical inquiry.

The second reason I post this is to address the vulgar use of relativism that is succinctly stated as “anything goes.” I’m not aware of any philosohper who truly accepts a position of anything goes. It is the chicken little alarmist attitude towards complexity. The sky is not falling, the sky is complicated.

Please read the article and post your thoughts on it.

The end of the article… well, I thought American academics were all pinko commie liberal anarchists whose only agenda was to destroy the American way of life in order to justify their own soulless existence because they all lacked real skills, like the ability to lyp synch, or that they were allergic to breast implants.

Wow. Thanks for that great article. What a vindicating piece for the likes of Derrida. So much to talk about.

Apparently, even the philosophy department is plagued with rumormongers and ignorant naysayers. If asked whether they have even read a book written by one of those ‘usual suspects’, the reply would ironically be, ‘Why would I waste my time reading garbage and nonsense disguised as philosophy?’ To these people, ‘suspension of disbelief’ is a gesture fit for the nonintellectual, or worst, charlatans.

I have read Imre Salusinszky’s interview with Derrida in the 80’s in a book called Criticism in Society and it’s a great piece—one gets to know him, and of his philosophy more intimately.

I think it makes sense. If you believe different things are true in different worlds, things can still be absolutely true, is just depends what world you are in. If you are studying different cultures, you have to keep in mind that different practices occur because of different conditions; a given action may have different consequences. That does not mean there cannot be an absolute morality, it just means that what is moral depends on the situation. I think if you believe in that kind of “relativism”, however, it makes more sense to call it situationalism, because otherwise it is confused with relativism which holds that different things can be true depending on who is thinking them; that two contradictary beliefs can be true at the same time because they exist in different heads. This is the kind of relativsm which doesn’t make sense.

I also think it is correct that relativists don’t reject logic. If you are a “situational” relativist, you are perfectly logical. If you are the second kind of relativist, your beleifs do not make logical sense, but all such relativists I have encountered claim to make logical sense.

If you just believe that logic is useless, you are a radical skeptic.

I think it makes sense. If you believe different things are true in different worlds, things can still be absolutely true, is just depends what world you are in. If you are studying different cultures, you have to keep in mind that different practices occur because of different conditions; a given action may have different consequences. That does not mean there cannot be an absolute morality, it just means that what is moral depends on the situation. I think if you believe in that kind of “relativism”, however, it makes more sense to call it situationalism, because otherwise it is confused with relativism which holds that different things can be true depending on who is thinking them; that two contradictary beliefs can be true at the same time because they exist in different heads. This is the kind of relativism which doesn’t make sense, and there are probably not that many relativists of this kind in the main-stream.

I also think it is correct that relativists don’t reject logic. If you are a “situational” relativist, you are perfectly logical. If you are the second kind of relativist, your beleifs do not make logical sense, but all such relativists I have encountered claim to make logical sense.

If you just believe that logic is useless, you are a radical skeptic.

"“Well, it is very difficult to summarise Derrida’s thought,” says Glendinning. “It, like any serious and penetrating thought, even resists summary - any philosophy that can be summed up in a nutshell belongs in one. People are troubled by a form of critique which challenges our most cherished assumptions - and so they want a caricature.” "

another philosopher who says read the book…

-Imp

One of the most ill-conceived beliefs about relativism is this. I think, because relativism must necessarily be reflected in human actions–i.e. morality, ethics, politics–that people, those who have very little acquaintace with its philosophy, often believe that it is necessarily devoid of logic and rationality.

But there are those who take advantage of the word “relativism” to advance their morality, political agenda, social ideas that are often extreme and tend to disturb the balance in society. I think these people give the name a bad rap.

fine, here goes.

there is no absolute space or time, mass, energy or movement. while these strong concepts do tend to maintain coherence in experimental settings, that is as much a function of the said experimental settings, including the theories and propositions that lie behind them, as it is a reflection of some sort of unaltered, eternal universal coherence.

there is no absolute or universal truth, value, morals, ethics or aesthetics.

the world is not a certain way.

the definitions of words are not, and can not be universal. linguistic systems can not be exhaustive. no two formal languages necessarily allow translations of text from one to another.

there is no good reason to consider any formalised system of thought, including logic and any ideology yet proposed will maintain a certain, same level of coherence with that which is perceived as reality.

as a supreme irony, all this makes sense to you (as proven by the fact that if you frown and try hard enough, the lingustic structures above do suggest meaning to you) but that is not a necessity of either my mind, yours or the lingustic system used, and can easily be just a misleading coincidence.

if anyone really thought the boogy scares of what “bad” relativism is are not, and could not be endorsed by any serious mind,

im more than happy to oblige.

Ooops, catquas, that was a badly written post I made. I mean, I agree with you on this (it didn’t sound right what I’ve written in my last post):

:wink:

an interesting Observation.

I have moved back to New Orleans, LA a town with at least five universities - two big ones - Tulane and Loyola and three Smaller ones - UNO, Xavier, and Southern. There are quite a bit of people running around with college degrees, such That it ain’t a big deal if you’ve got one. This is quite a change from where I used to live in FL where having a college degree actually seemingly put you in this outcast category of snobbish elitist. Now amongst those folk in FL, I expected a degree of unreflexive certainty about their opinions and situation in life. What is most amazing to me is how absolutist the so-called relativists are that I now am surrounded by.

People grab on to certainties and will ride those fuckers in to the ground.

What really amazes me is that 2500 years Ago Herodotus and the other Greeks were basically relaxed about the idea that some other group ate people. “Hey local custom. What can you do?”

We have lost so much with Christianity. To paraphrase the old Gaulish general’s judgement on Rome - " They make a desert and call it peace"

If you believe that this is true, how can you believe your post? Saying the world is not a certain way is a statement of a way the world is. Of course, if you didn’t mean to be logical, you have no problem with logical contradiction, but if you did, this seems pretty contradictary.

Relativism is a bet and nothing more. It is the denial of absolute truths while hoping that there are not absolute truths in which case it would be possible to be wrong.

Relativism in science and physics was born with Einstein and has been complimented with quantum mechanics. Now, not only is time and space relative to the position of the measurement, but those postions themselves are reducible to superpositions at a quantum level. Relativism and probability do not change objective truths, they change the act of observation which induces the notion of freewill, chaos, and indeterminancy when drawing empirical truths about the world. The world is very organized and exists causally. Relativism is no arguement against that.

In morals it is the same time, but more is placed in the wager. In the conscience of each person there is the capacity for hipocrisy and intention. A man who believes that his actions are immoral and practices them with the hope that he not be wrong and that there not be a consequence, has bad intentions, because he’s not sure that he will not suffer for acting that way. He takes a risk and makes a bet. If he can honestly say that he wouldn’t mind if those acts were commited against him, he is not a hipocrite. The stakes are raised here. Part of his decision to act immoral involves the fact that the chances are low that he have those acts commited against him. If we made it more likely that the same happened to him, his wager would decrease a bit.

Hell, its not even relatively right, what he’s doing, because he is taking a risk. One does not intend their own fate in a moral decision even if it is relative, but has risks. Its not moral if its not complete. One has to act as if those consequences are going to happen, whetever they may be, to make a ‘right’ decision, even if he thinks that is relative. Lest he be a sadist or a big better, or a clown.

If there is truth in epistemology there will also be truth in evaluations of relativism or it cannot even be discussed:

There are no truths.
Is that true?
Then it is false.
If it is false then it is true.
If it is true then…

[yawn]

Language fucks everything up. The universe is true and so is everything else in it. The loss of truth is in the observation, thanks to relativity and quantum mechanics. :confused:

saying the world is not a certain way is the logical equivalent of saying i am not in bristol when i am in fact at cambridge.

your response is equal with saying that form me to know i am not in bristol i would have to be in bristol and check on me. therefore, by stating i am not in bristol i prove that in fact i am in bristol. utter rubbish. i can sit in cambridge and know im not in bristol without being in bristol and checking.

the world is not a certain way does not imply the world is in a way that is not certain. it simply means the world is not a certain way.

I do believe there is an objective reality and my perceptions are a direct reflection of it… this being just a perception of mine supported by the evidence that 99% if not 100% of the people Ive met have made it clear to me that they share my perception of the objective reality I live in. Ofcourse I have absolutely no proof that the people I meet are part of an objective reality. Ive been thinking about the alternative to an objective reality, and I just cant comprehend it. I feel there is something illogical about it, I just cant put my finger on it. If any 1 has any suggestions for or against, im all ears. But lets just assume an objective reality.

Now, in terms of morals, good and evil, all those absolutes, I am a complete relativist. I am one of those “Anything goes” believers. There is one exception. I have come to a seemingly absolute conclusion that pain and pleasure are the only conscious reasons for any human action. By conscious I mean excluding acting on instinct, or being brainwashed. I believe that whether people realize it or not, people are just doin what makes them feel good, or gives them pleasure. For example, a young christian man abstains from masturbation, even though its pretty apparent that its a pleasurable act. Though he abstains, because he thinks its wrong. Either he was just taught it was wrong all his life, and no further reason was required for him to accept the “moral” or he was offered a misleading reason not to masturbate, that being he goes to hell if he does. Either way, pleasure is the driving force. He wants to do the right thing, or he wants to stay out of hell. Wanting implies obtaining pleasure from achieving the desire. This is a controvercial issue ofcourse, and if any one would like, I would love to argue that issue further, but let me continue.

Let me clarify, I am not an egoist or a utilitarianist. Those are ethical systems that specify a moraly right act and a moraly wrong act. Im not saying people SHOULD act for pleasure, im saying people DO act for pleasure. What brings people pleasure though, is what I believe to be the relative factor. “Morals” are just a way for society to dictate to maturing minds what will be their sources of pleasure. “GOD IS GOOD, GOD IS GOOD” If thats all I hear in my childhood, ide bet I would obtain great pleasure in believing and following God. The same applies to “MURDER IS WRONG”, “HARD WORK BRINGS SUCCESS”, “LYING IS BAD” These are forced upon young minds as absolutes, though it is obvious that hard work will not always breed sucess. Some people work hard all their lives and get no where, while the lazyest guy wins the lottery. Lying is not always bad, it has gotten me out of alot of trouble, ofcourse it has gotten me into alot too. Same applies for murder. Some morals are very useful though. Its plain statistics that people that murder, steal, rape, so on get into trouble in our society. Thus if you live your life without doing those things, it would seem logical that you will most likely live a more pleasurable life, because jail is no fun. But say you were given perfect information that if you stole 1,000,000 dollars, you wouldnt get cought, and all ude have to deal with is your own guilt. I swear, anyone that does not steal the 1,000,000 dollars because of their moral is a sad individual. If your moral not to steal is so strong that you do not see this as an advantagous situation, all I have to say is that you are at a great disadvantage at achieving as much pleasure in life as me. This is the problem with morals. I believe making decisions in life is a cost/reward function. You decide what to do, If you want to risk raping a girl in the hope that you wont get cought, go for it. If you dont get cought, and you gained alot of pleasure from orgasm, you are succesful in the #1 goal in life, ie:pleasure. If you do get caught, your in alot of shit, and you most likely regret the dicision. So you decide, should I take the risk for the pleasure or not. And in alot of situations, morals prevent people from making the statisticly lucritive dicision. There is nothing inherintly wrong with rape. There is no such thing as wrong and right. But obviously women dont like getting raped. That is what a system of government is for. Women apeal to the goverment to provide protection against rape. The goverment does this by making rape a very risky proposition. This is the nature of my relativism. To say rape is just wrong is ilogical. There is no possible logic behind this. What can be said is that if you treat people in a way that they do not want to be treated, you will find yourself in very unpleasent situations. If this is not the case, than you are statisticly lucky. Ofcourse people get away with murder and rape and stealing, but most people dont. The better society gets at cracking down on them, the less unhappy people it will have.

I ofcourse am talking about the only society im aquainted with, that of America. Ofcourse there are very bad situations in the world, such as africa, where there are genocides and the people with power are taking advantage of those without. This has happened throughout history, yet I believe history has proven that when people feel they are taken advantage of, somehow the abusers get the short end of the stick in the long run. Hitler had a great run of power, but in the end, he pissed too many people off, and ended up killing himself. In terms of obtaining pleasure in life, ide say he could have made some better dicisions. I can think of many other examples of people fighting for their right to live pleasurable lives. Slaves, women, each time the only way people got their freedom was by forcing the “bad guys” to decide that the risk of causing pain to others was no longer worth it. This is why I supported the Iraq war. This is why I would support a US military prescence in Africa. (About the iraq war, im starting to think it wasn’t executed so well, but the principle of punishing people like Sadam and offering the freedom for more pleasures to the iraqi people was very atractive to me.)

In this way I believe I am the most tolerant person I know. An islamic suicide bomber is no diffirent to me than a devout christian. They are both doing what they think is right and what they believe will bring them the most pleasure. I do not think someone that murders and rapes is a “bad” person. Quite logicly I wouldnt want to be around them or know them. But if they get away with it, I can say nothing, I can only apeal to a higher power to punish them, in fear that I might be their next target. Its just pure logic, no absolutes are needed. Relativism works just fine.

You are a moral-relativist, a Satanist, and self-indulgent. Your “philosophy” sucks and you have my condolences. Continue reading Nietzsche or apply for a job at the Vatican. Your “philosophy” is ugly and shallow. It’s not really a “philosophy” – just the criminal machinations of an uneducated mind.
Thank you, Brian

You are a moral-relativist, a Satanist, and self-indulgent. Your “philosophy” sucks and you have my condolences. Continue reading Nietzsche or apply for a job at the Vatican. Your “philosophy” is ugly and shallow. It’s not really a “philosophy” – just the criminal machinations of a sick and uneducated mind.
Thank you, Brian

Brian, don’t you think that is little fallacious? Attacking him with labels, like ‘satanist’, isn’t really making your point clear.

What’s this with the Vatican?

Indeed. The most offensive part of that post is the vatican part… Didnt I make it clear that I didn’t like religion? And also, what does Nietzsche have to do with it. Ive never read him in my life… Anyways, I expect that since your post had no reason or logic, you are assuming I am wrong based on some moral absolutes. Along with that, you called me a satanist, thus I believe you are a religios person? Ok great. Where did God come from?

Russiantank:

With some apprehension, I will venture to say that I basically agree with what you are saying. Although, I’ll also point out that in order for others to understand your position, they will need a good bit of patience and a long attention span. I’ll probably also not come across very coherently in my following rant, but I’ll do my best.

You’re basically throwing out the popular behavioral paradigms, and replacing them with something simpler, which is the pleasure/pain exchange. I think it is a little more complicated than that, but only in the sense that I think that simply saying “I want to masturbate because it is pleasurable” ignores the biological impulse to orgasm, which was the very driving force behind the evolution of our species. Without that, there can be no procreation, which in nature’s view is the whole point. Nonetheless, I think it’s a much more effective way to examine value systems than by bringing in a lot of hokey god-spirit-hellfire mumbo-jumbo. If a person doesn’t want to rape a girl, it’s for lots of reasons, whether because it’s against God’s teaching, against your parents’ teaching, because the cops will get you and you’ll go to jail, because you can empathize with the negative feelings the girl may have as a result of your actions, because you’re not sexually attracted to females, whatever. But one thing it is not because of is that it is wrong on any level that exists outside the confines of the collective consciousness of humanity. Nature in fact thinks you ought to rape that girl, because it’s likely to increase the odds of you producing an offspring, which is the whole point.

Now, it’s perfectly reasonable to say “I don’t want to do X because X is wrong.” “Wrong” in that sentence is short-hand for all the reasons that you’ve taken into account for why you think it is not in your interests to do X. Perhaps X will not bring you pleasure, or will likely bring more pain than pleasure. Guilt is a form of pain that is largely instructed by sociological conditions; you can not want to do something because it will make you feel guilty, and that might be because you’ve been taught that doing that thing will have negative impacts on you or on those around you. Perhaps you were never really taught what those impacts were, just that the action itself was “wrong.” So you don’t do it. Is it “wrong” for you? Sure. Is it “wrong” within your community? Possibly. Is it “wrong” across all the reaches of the universe? Not even close.

My problem, and I suspect yours as well, is with those who do not bother to try and understand to a reasonable degree what forces or factors have motivated their value system. They think it is simply good enough to know that X is bad because God said so, or because their momma said so, or because the media never show anybody doing X, etc. And I say it isn’t. Does that mean I have no functional morality? Of course not. I make value judgments based on what will benefit me (pleasure principle) and what will harm me (pain principle), and I take into account as much of my environment as possible. What hurts someone else may necessarily hurt me, so I strive not to be ignorant of others’ needs and wants. What helps someone else may help me, so the same goes. But I would argue that it helps no one to blindly follow a value system the general concepts behind the formation of which you cannot identify and have not evaluated.

I would not call myself a relativist, because that term is poisonous in the society in which I live. But I will say that I have no use for moral absolutism or the stupefyingly unfounded rigidity of belief to which it adheres.

Hi El_Nuncio, thanks for the reply.

If you have the time and the desire, you should read the conversation between me and martin_of_the_club in the “What do you think about my philosophy” thread. The idea that the pleasure/pain drive is the only natural drive we have, and every other reason for human action is some manifestation of that drive, a product of asscociation and corruptions of logic, is an essential idea to my philosophy. I thoroughly explain this to martin, and I get the feeling he was starting to go along with me, but if you dont feel like reading our super long conversation, Ile be happy to thoroughly explain what I mean by association and corruptions of logic if you would like.

Basicly, any drive you can think of, such as duty, doing whats right/wrong, anything, is some form of the pleasure/pain drive for concious action. This is human nature. I believe I presented some good arguments for this in the converstation with Martin. Anyways, taking this into consideration, I argue that the way you and I act, the concious persuit of pleasure, or the pleasure principle as you say, is the way of life most likely to provide the most pleasure. That may seem pretty obvious, but I had to work through some great objections to actually make a good point out of it. The basic conclusion of this aspect of my philosophy is that we should strive to encourage the attainment of physical pleasure in our society, and in alot of ways, we already do. Everytime someone complains about our indulgent or decadent societies, I see that as a good thing. Obviously I understand that over indulging on anything, food, drugs, gambling, sex, in the long run usualy is a poor choice in the overall persuit of pleasure. But I think you get what I mean.

You mention the biological impulse to orgasm. I agree with you there, but that is not exactly a part of concious thought. I mean, we dont decide when to get horny or when we get hungry or thirsty. Thats a natural body thing. But I believe, and most evolutionists and behaviorists would agree, pleausure is an evolutionary measure intended to be another form of impulse and (Im not sure if they agree with this though) is the cause for all concious human action. I dont need to get horny or hungry to pursue sex or food. I do it just because I like it…

Basicly, just to reiterate, my philosophy has three main points:

  1. Encourage persuit of physical pleasure.
  2. Encourage understanding of the world, becuase the better you know the variables around you, the better your decisions will be in the persuit of pleasure.
  3. (Somewhat of a follow up to #2) Discourage absolutes.