The Christian Dogma Perforator

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

what do you believe? (just shutup and vote you know you roughly fall into one of these)

  • jesus was probably a logical, correct philosopher just like Future Man. he said a lot of correct things. he has very little to do with christianity
  • most christian dogmas are ok, even if they provide no verifiable benefit to earthlings
  • all the dogmas of the bible and any of the infallible popes are true. i voted for bush because gays and stem cells are wrong. (clicking this option will download a virus)
  • there is no morality. raping is great. somalians deserve food just as much as i deserve to die.
0 voters

there are two ways to answer the question “why are there so many christians” you can say that they truly are following gods will and/or the messages they deliver are truly the best thing that could happen to humans (soon to be second best, after islam, if not already)

or you could say that the whole organization and their irrational rituals were put in place simply to pacify the peasants of the middle ages. each ritual was put in place to make each peasant feel like they are a member, feel like they are in debt to jesus and feel like their loving benefactors truly are loving and will truly benefact them in the best ways possible: the supernatural ways that nobody is able to or supposed to understand.

im sure this thread probably belongs in the rant house, but chill out. im really curious about the origins of the catholic sacraments and dogmas, if anybody knows.

first off, i believe that if a god wanted to give humanity specific instructions, he would tell all of humanity. to say that god only chose a small group of people to spread the message to ignorant asia, africa and america is absolutely the apogee of ethnocentrism.

besides that, why is the bible so cryptic? why cant we have stone tablets that specifically states all the little details? why is it neccesary for them to be completely open to interpretation. more importantly, how and why would god expect cynical, inquisitive philosophers like me to believe the words of people who, in the middle ages, were just as rich and despicable as howard hughes or jp morgan? if not moreso. he cant expect that, he certainly cant require it.

i assume that all or almost all christians have at least a tiny little problem with some dogma that has been described as infallible over the millennia. surely nobody thinks that unbaptised babies in africa float in limbo for all eternity or that saracens must be violently conquered. so if you dont believe that, and the church claimed it was infallible, why believe anything that is claimed to be infallible?

so anyway, back to the conspiracy idea. i believe that all of the christian dogmas that do not clearly and verifiably help humanity whether or not the bible is true were cooked up in the dark ages to pacify the peasants.

europe was a crappy place for peasants. christianity is a very comforting thing if you truly believe it. PoR has made it clear that we dont even need to sacrifice our luxuries to help the poor because they will be perfectly happy in heaven. if all peasants believed like PoR does, then certainly they would be pacified to a considerable extent.

the idea of jesus dying for our sins is purely illogical. i mean, i dont claim to know exactly how god works, or what his universe machinery looks like, but i would imagine it at least makes a tiny speck of sense. the story says that before jesus died, the gates of heaven were open only to those who committed zero sins. or if you did commit sins, you had to touch the head of a lamb to transfer your sins to it, and then kill it.

the idea of sacrificing animals does make sense. its like god is saying ‘you messed up, i know you want that goat, but i wanted you to not mess up. so show me youre sorry by not using that goat anymore’ i completely agree with a god who requires animal sacrifice, as long as evidence of his existence is satisfactory.

the thing with jesus is that he is supposed to be the super lamb that takes care of all future lamb sacrifices. you dont have to sacrifice your lambs anymore because we sacrificed jesus, who was a super lamb.

but we did not sacrifice jesus, he was not a useful object in our village whose use we need to give up in order to prove we are sorry. god sacrificed jesus. god sent him down to die, and humans lost nothing by his death, except for a great morality teacher.

imagine a god who tells his villagers to sacrifice the lamb, it makes sense. now imagine god when he says “alright, you dont have to sacrifice lambs anymore, i forgive you.” that also makes sense.

now imagine the omnipotent god says this:

“alright you dont have to sacrifice animals anymore, and what im gonna have to do in order to open the gates of heaven to sinners is, well uh ill send down my ‘son’ whos like, you know, he doesnt have my sperm in him… hes just… just say hes my son alright. and im gonna have to have him crucified by the romans. then ill send him down to hell for a day, then ill bring him back up for forty days so that you can see my incredible power. then he’ll come up to heaven and ‘sit next to me’. dont ask why. just believe it. if you dont even believe or acknowledge this huge sacrifice im gonna make, how can i be expected to care about you?”

if god wanted to get the word out that people dont have to sacrifice animals anymore, or that he loved us so much that he is willing to sacrifice his son, and he truly wants us all to be happy and moral, what is the problem with writing gigantic words of fire in the sky all around the world? wouldnt that be a lot more effective?

my theory about this lie is that dark age bishops wanted to make the peasants feel indebted to god. they wanted them to thank god every day, and to be very afraid of the second coming. i dont know this, but is it possible that every devout christian ever has thought that the apocalypse would happen in his lifetime? i know that throughout history it has been speculated often, and the bishops know that this is an easy way to make peasants not care about their future as long as they are pacified by their religion.

imagine you truly believe that jesus is coming back within your lifetime. your feudal lord shoves this idea down your throat and you realize that even if you broke from your enslavement, jesus is going to show up in a matter of years and take away whatever youve accomplished. hell send all your obedient friends to heaven and you will punished like the non-conforming devil that you have been told you are. thats exactly who you pacify peasants, i couldnt have done it better myself.

i could go on about the catholic sacraments, but this thread is big enough and what i would say seems self explanatory enough.

christians, what is the use of believing that jesus died for your sins? how is that more important than believing in anti materialism? what does it have to do with the lives of humans while they are on earth? the whole point of this belief is to ignore your life on earth and hope and be thankful for a fantastic afterlife? dont you realize that thats exactly how peasants are most effectively pacified?

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Mainly I’m posting here to get this thread back on the top of the lists so people like PoR will see it when they come to the board and don’t bother scrolling down. However, I have some comments…

The typical response from your average fundie is: “God wanted us to have free will to chose. That’s why he doesn’t come to our doorstep every day and give us commands.” They justify their free will comment by saying “life is a test.” They might also as well comment that God already created angels to serve him and obey his every command…but then…if he has angels doing his bidding, what the fuck are we doing here? That then forms God as being an egotistical asshole, which I don’t really have to say because he already admits it in the first commandment…

Crypticy allows for open-endedness, and that allows the application of scripture to be applied to many cultures via difference in interpretation.

3

OMG

Future man

do you honestly believe you can possibly KNOW the mind of God?

4

if god really wants us to believe, whats the point in making it hard to believe?

if i was isolated on an island my whole life, would i believe in jesus? would god be upset if i didnt suddenly deny my whole life of worshipping other objects if they deliver the same message? if theres nothing to lose by becoming this golden rule following, isolated island man, whats to gain by learning this knowledge that island man doesnt have?

5

why do you find it hard to believe in God?

I don’t quite understand what you mean by “if theres nothing to lose by becoming this golden rule following, isolated island man, whats to gain by learning this knowledge that island man doesnt have?” - I think a comma or something is needed somewhere.

Your example of an island man is not very fair because it is too far-fetched from reality. Right now, you know who’s Jesus and read portions of the Bible, but you reject the doctrines. I am not sure why you reject them. I can answer questions regarding the New Testament. You need to speak to Jewish authorities if you are interested in the Old Testament.

When you ask, would God be angry if people worshipped idols that served the same message? I don’t think that is possible, worshipping idols that give out the Exact same message as Christ. If that is possible, why would an idol be called an idol and Christ be called Christ?

6

You’re not understanding him PoR…he means that he finds it hard to believe in YOUR god…

7

PoR, the only important part of christianity is what jesus calls the golden rule. he calls it this not because golden chalices are required to adhere to it, but because its the real gold, and the metal known as gold is not.

it is my belief that all humans are born with the ability to recognize this golden rule, without seeing it in the bible. sure the bible could have helped the idea spread more than it would have otherwise, but i would credit the leaders who preached the golden rule more than the strange, foreign, cryptic, inefficient, 1000+ page bible.

first of all, isolated island men still exist! not alone, but there are societies who have not heard the word of the lord, even today. and between now and when jesus opened the gates only for those few who believed in him, billions of people have died without ever knowing that they were supposed to believe in him. and besides, even if i meant a guy all by himself, how is that so irrelevant as to warrant your disregard of it?

“if theres nothing to lose by becoming this golden rule following, isolated island man, whats to gain by learning this knowledge that island man doesnt have?”

would somebody else with impeccable grammer please verify that a comma is not needed? what i meant is that christians will claim that by becoming a christian, they have experienced something that they would not have had otherwise.

i would tell those christians that they have lerned that treating their neighbor like themself is really great. i would say that the isolated island man can figure out the same great thing and feel just as good. christians used to say that poor island man will rot in limbo forever, simply since he never heard of jesus.

obviously nobody really believes that anymore. so if avoiding jesus’ wrath isnt the only thing that you gain by changing your idol from an island-style stone head to jesus’ beautiful image of torture, why would you do it? what advantages are gained by believing the bible other than the idea that all neighbors should be treated as neighbors? and that god loves you? the rituals and traditions arent listed in there. very little is. so what is?

i find it hard to believe in christianity because absolutely every single time i tell them “this doesnt make sense” the only response they have is, “its not supposed to make sense. religion doesnt make sense. period, sheep, the end. give me money”

i made a religion that makes perfect sense. why is it so hard to believe that such a thing exists? maybe because those rich dark age priests didnt want to give their peasants the power to think without them? they did a great job.

8

That’s slighly disturbing, my friend. :astonished:

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Future man

I’ll be completely honest with you. As far as I know, the Bible never mentions what happens to people who has never heard of Jesus.

and how do you suppose you can experience what they have experienced without becoming a Christian yourself?

hehehe, hahahaha, “its not supposed to make sense. religion doesnt make sense. period, sheep, the end. give me money”
you have an awesome sense of humour!

Being a Christian is an experience. When I say, “Jesus is the Son of God”, I say it with the same conviction as I say “New York is in America”. Of course, I could be wrong for I have never been to New York. But that is not important, what is important is your conviction, even if it is bad faith.

Jesus is a good man, there is no reason for him to lie. Why do I believe in Jesus and not some cult? Because I am attracted to the Christian lifestyle, the Christian experience. Listen to Bach’s Magnificat, you’ll see what I mean.

You do not have to listen to what Christians say, read the Bible and find Jesus. We Christians can be wrong about heaven and hell (I don’t understand those concepts anyway).

I don’t know how I can explain Christianity to you if you don’t try to be a Christian.
[/quote]

10

well damn. if you talked to jesus, then hes definetely real. and if he raised you from the dead, then hes definetely the son of god. ill believe you because why would you lie? youre not asking for my money.

did that stuff happen? or do you take the word of your priest? and he took it from another priest, and it goes down the line until you get somewhere in the dark ages. some council of dudes [b]decided[/b] that certain books will go into the bible, and they will say certain things. they also said that god zapped himself into their brains so that their decisions have some real divine authority. they didnt do miracles, you didnt talk to them, you have no reason to believe them.

some dudes got a lot of money from a lot of people whether or not those people wanted to give it to them, and they are who you and generations of priests have blind faith in.

i have no doubt that following the general idea of jesus’ teachings aka the golden rule is a wonderful spiritual experience unlike anything in the world and as soon i find a cure for lazy im there. all that other baggage that comes with christianity, all the stuff thats not a direct extension of the golden rule, its a huge waste and all empirically verifiable evidence says its a waste.

you believe its not a waste simply because some dude said you should. and then he asked for your money.

11

future man

does it really matter if Christianity is one big lie? maybe Jesus like New York city does not exist, but what does that matter?
Jesus is a symbol. Jesus is his teachings. Why would it matter if Jesus is actually Jehova or someone with different name? What matters is what he has said.

if you do not want to donate, then don’t.

The Christian doctrine, like the Trinity and Jesus being the Son of God is important. You don’t have to understand them, you just got to accept them. Like you accepting the existence of New York. When Jesus said he walked on water, I do not try to understand it, I just accept it.

I enjoy Christianity, especially the knowledge that there is a life after death. That there is justice, despite the seeming chaos of our society. I feel calm in times of adversity, for God is protecting me. As a Christian, I already have the ticket to Heaven. :slight_smile:

12

That seems a very odd arguement- I’d say it does matter if it’s a lie! :astonished: How can the words of the Bible be taken as unvarnished truth if the fundamental core is a lie? If it’s a lie, then how can you use it as an appeal to authority? :confused:

It seems to me that philosophy is a journey towards a truth we can probably never actually reach. It seems to me religion is finding a level of untruth that makes us comfortable and stopping right there.

"[i]Two roads diverged in a yellow wood
and sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveller, long I stood
and looked down one as far as I could
to where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
and having perhaps the better claim
because it was grassy and wanted wear;
though as for that, the passing there
had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
in leaves no feet had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I–
I took the one less travelled by,
and that has made all the difference[/i]"
– Robert Frost

13

Phaedrus

how do you know what Jesus said is one big lie if you do not die and it find out yourself? That argument is intended to show that there is no point pondering about the truth of Christianity for the truth is revealed after death, and none of us can comprehend what happens after death, so there is no point in trying.

also, if you do not know what is true, how can you judge something that is untrue?

for you have taken the highway to hell.

14

Amazing! You undo every arguement you’ve ever made with one sentence! Bravo!

Do you even read anyones posts anymore before you start quoting and typing? :unamused: I wasn’t the one that said they weren’t true, IT WAS YOU YOURSELF SAYING IT DOESN’T MATTER IF IT’S TRUE!

This is like argueing with my dog! :angry:

15

Phaedrus

how did I manage to do that?

I read every word.

andddd, what is your point?

I didn’t know you can talk with the animals. woolf, woolf, roolf!

Edit: just curious, did your dog ever talk back to you?

16

If he wants to talk religion I’ll be sure to let you know. I think you’d be kindred spirits.

Beyond that I have no more points- they seem lost on you anyway. I admit- you win. I concede defeat. Perhaps you were unable to dazzle me with brilliance, but you’ve certainly baffled me with bullshit. :confused:

17

well… as long as you are baffled. :wink:
could you show Nihilistic this thread, so he can get some idea of who he’s up against? hehehe

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My weary brain can take only so much bullshit one day, thanks. :wink: :laughing:

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Phaedrus

does that mean you’ll return to the thread tomorrow? In that case, why didn’t you ask for a cease fire?

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Man, you slay me, PoR. Perhaps I can return the favor one day. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: