The Collapse of Civilization

[HumAnIze]

Imagine trading away your own pure thinkingbrain for …meh datas and ‘facks’.

If you don’t already know that Muslim men are allowed, legally under their religion, to rape their wives (however many they might have) and that under Islam there is NO concept of marital rape… and the women and girls are forced to veil, genital cut, and accept a life of servitude and sex slavery to their husband…

Then I honestly do not know what to tell you. Then again, I rarely do. Bother to apply reason logic common sense and… reality… to whitelibs. But sure, feel free to grindcope or harddata factsplain me on some unitard surveysite thingymabob and maybe include some wikifakkks and “fact check” just so everyone undersands preciselty where you come frrom.

Me? Oh, I have no illusions. You are already Islamized. And you love it. I get it, I mean… multiple rapable girliewives for you just for being aligned to the “Meh Profett?” Have 10 kids for those tradwifie silly slavemarranges,. well wow I mean like WOWWW. Yes indeed, the political western right wing is sorelty late to the game. But they will catch up, no worries.

Then maybe, before you ban me or whatever you are thikning about right now, consider youre own little tgirls friends or nieces or kids or I have no idea about your personal life or situation, BUT. Would you want those little girls growing up under Sharia? In an Islamic world / society / law / ethos / culture / no0rmalitry?

Because I know, if you have known the first hand peronal stories like I have, then your answeer ewopuld bne FUCK NO. You would not want that. FOr any femlae you care about, chld or otherwiswe.

Then ask yourself why you dismiss the things Jakob talks about. Or the British rape culrue pedo gangs nonsense that goes on still to this day because the police and govt dont want to appear “racist” so they refuse to do anythying about it.

But naw. You already have no idea about any of this. Your own choice. So congrats. I hope your shitkarma doesnnt translate to those you love. Best if you just deal on your own level with your own bullshitnonsnse. RIght? Or maybe you can pray for your family and friends to live under Islamic Law. Apppareltly YOU have no problem at all with that, compared to your now cushy life living in the capitol center of a CHRISTIAN / shalsh atheist-masonic-satanic globalistd CultState.

I mean, even explaining things like that… makes me realize that you are being deliberately obtuse. And opk, sure fine. That is your right.

But… why be like that? Are you in this for the money, or what ? I hope youre not already giving ober to being a drenochrome satanian xconvert to the ‘forces taht be’ world controllers globalist gangparties. ?? If so, please ban me and delete my account immediately.

[Carleas]

Men under Christianity are also legally allowed to rape their wives, and there was no concept of marital rape was legal in the US until the 1970s, and only fully criminalized in the early 90s.

All the practices you ascribe to Islam (FGM, forcing them to live in bags, servitude) pre-date Islam, aren’t universal in Muslim majority areas, and are practiced and supported by members of other religions in the places where they are practiced.

I’m asking for you (or Jakob or Mags) to provide data for your generalizations because they’re all like this: poorly informed, based on stereotype or spurious correlation. If you try to find more than anecdotes to support your beliefs, my hope is that you’ll notice that the evidence isn’t there.

You’re interpreting my claim that Muslim immigrants are not a threat to Europe as a defense of the worst version of Islam you’ve ever heard of, which is fallacious. What I’m saying is that the vast majority of Muslims who move to Europe don’t believe in that shit any more than you do. Immigrants are less criminal that similar placed native born citizens, and their children will be roughly as secular as the society they grow up in.

Sharia law is bad. So is Christian Nationalism and Hindu Nationalism and Zionism and whatever the fuck else. Rejecting those is completely consistent with the claim that immigrants from those societies who self-select to move to secular societies are not a threat. By and large, they end up being productive and law-abiding members of those societies, and the secular society moves them towards secularism much more than they move the secular society towards religion.

It occurs to me that the people who are least committed to what the West has stood for are the most spooked by immigration. Nothing undermines the West more than a fragile belief in Western values.

[Jakob]

As an American you have the privilege to be ignorant of Islam, but your ignorance is so deep that it is a bit dizzying.

Huge crowd marches through London to mark Day of Ashura despite social distancing restrictions

yes, these people are clearly integrated and intent on adapting to secular society. Polls, when polls of that type were still allowed, always showed that most muslims here want Sharia law to be implemented. They come here for the money. Very many of them live on welfare. I worked with the police for a crime program for a long time and about 90 percent of criminals are immigrants. I have an islamic death sentence over my head. In my own country. You don’t even care. Ramble on about “anecdotal evidence”. And then you go and claim western values. The most significant people who have spoken out against islam here are now dead or have fled to the US. The one who is now speaking out on it lives in a bunker. And of course the Brit tweeting ‘christians must rise’ is in jail, and you agree, because he is the danger.

[VictorMcCheeseEsq]

Ugh. That’s not culture–it’s anti-culture. Just look at the traditional dress of Middle Eastern women and women from other countries before islamification and you will see that the black tent has nothing to do with culture. It’s oppression by inadequate little men with too much power, against the women they loathe.

[Jakob]

Yes… the last time anything of cultural value came out of the muslim world was around 1100. By then, the Ottoman ruler had banished virtually all sciences. But Carleas thinks this influx is an enrichment to society, because immigrants are by definition good. Because his family was discriminated. He doesnt care about the Swedish women who cant go outside by themselves anymore. Or the German children stabbed to death or the cars ploughing into crowds or the girls getting gangraped and then arrested. He just wants more immigrants for Europe. And he thinks all immigrants are the same.

Carleas, an atheist, is fundamentally ignorant of the nature of religion, and as a privileged American most especially of this religion.

Yes, there are many law abiding muslims. But their law abidingness doest make them less zealous. Muslims, in this age, do not fall from their faith. The power of their faith over them is if anything increasing when they set foot in secular lands. They feel threatened by the liberty of western women and are bewildered by freedom of expression.

And no, Carleas, I was not in some kind of fog, I actually heard Hillary say that she wanted to curb the first amendment. I have heard several leftists speak out like that after Trump got on Joe Rogan. But your bias is absolute, intelligent as you are, you simply ignore or when it gets too close deny everything that would instill some political doubts in you.

[Jakob]

I had a Turkish friend with whom I made ‘progressive’ tv - I was sort of a leftist still at that point and he was very cool about everything, until he married and decided he would not let his wife out of his house without his permission. That seemed perfectly sane to him, normal, decent. As a young guy, he was about as integrated and westernized as muslims can ever become. But he fell into the fold when he became an adult. And of course he kind of condoned the murder of the anti islamic filmmaker, called him ‘a fat pig that got killed’ - he was definitely more angry that it made people distrust his religion than he was about the murder. There is a definite hypocrisy to it, an intellectual inconsistency. Which seems to spill over into secular society.

The good days when it was still Capitalism vs hard Communism - two ideologies very intent on intellectual achievement.

[Carleas]

@Jakob

yes, these people are clearly integrated and intent on adapting to secular society.

That video says “thousands” marched in 2020. I can’t find a direct estimate for 2020, but this article about a march on the same holiday in 2017 says organizers claimed 10,000. That seems generous but let’s go with it.

In 2021, London’s population was 8.8 million, 1.3 million of them Muslim. So around 1% of the Muslim population, and 0.1% of the total population, came out for the march.

Also note from the article about the 2017 march that it was organized by Faiths Forum, an organization working for interfaith cooperation (here is a page about their governing council members), and the 2017 march was explicitly anti-terrorist and anti-ISIS:

People of all ages made their way from Hyde Park to Trafalgar Square, holding placards and banners that branded terrorists “enemies of Allah and humanity” and Isis “not Islamic, nor a state”.

One of those marching in 2017 was the brother of an aid worker who was beheaded by ISIS. So, probably not a Muslim extremist.

@VictorMcCheeseEsq

Ugh. That’s not culture–it’s anti-culture. Just look at the traditional dress of Middle Eastern women and women from other countries before islamification and you will see that the black tent has nothing to do with culture.

I agree, but note that that isn’t relevant to Jakob’s video: wearing black is traditional for the Day of Ashura, so I don’t think you can generalize about the typical practice of those marching based on what they’re wearing during the march.

@Jakob

He doesnt care about the Swedish women who cant go outside by themselves anymore.

I would care if a significant portion of Swedish women feel this way, I just don’t believe they do because I’ve never seen a reliable source that supports this claim or others like it.

And every time someone posts a video like the one above claiming it shows London being overrun by Islamic extremists, and when I look it up I find that it actually shows a very small minority of a minority dressed up for a holy day, plus good reason to think that part of the message of those marching is opposition to Islamic extremism, I get further from believing that it’s more than a conspiracy theory being spread on social media for political purposes.

And if that video played any part in your belief that Muslims are taking over London, you should believe it less knowing that it doesn’t show what you thought it showed.

[HumAnIze]

Don’t bother. You will never reach any of the ‘minds’ here at IHP. They sold their souls long, long, long ago.

I really appreciate your efforts, I am sure many others do too. But we are better to focus our efforts away from the already-enslaved.

[Carleas]

First it’s “they won’t talk about Islam”, then it’s “don’t bother talking to them about Islam”.

Meanwhile, I’ve been consistent: you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[HumAnIze]

Says the guy who thinks that women and girls living under Sharia is all fine and good, no human rights abuses no mass rape culture no oppression and lack of freedom and basic human dignity, nothing to see here. Move along everyone, be nice to Islam! #DontBeMeanGuysCmonItsTheCurrentYear!

[Carleas]

The fact that you need to misrepresent my position and can’t respond to the points I’m actually making suggests that the points that I’m making are good and right and that frustrates you.

[HumAnIze]

My bad, sorry, but hey that’s cool you don’t like Sharia either. I didn’t realize. Glad we agree

That wasn’t so hard, was it? Could have saved time by just coming clean from the start.

[Jakob]

Carleas, the Swedish government is employing its military to combat immigrant crime and is planning to pay immigrants to go back home. The experiment, like in Germany, is widely recognized to have failed. You keep evading a lot by the way.

The demonstration there in London, regardless what it was for, shows how powerful and organized Islam is in that city. Do you see Christians or Hindus turn up in such numbers? By the way that was apparently during the social distancing period where non muslim people were getting arrested and fined for organizing events.

I posted another video of an imam of sorts being allowed to sing his religious verses amplified on the central bridge. How is that not a religion taking over a city? Not to mention the number of muslims in prominent government positions.

I mentioned that I am under a death sentence by islamists in my own country, and that anti islamic politicians have been murdered, others have fled, live in bunkers - no you are not consistent and not honest. I wonder if you really think you are but I guess you do. I left out other things you have conveniently ignored.

Your technique in debate is to ignore what refutes your position and then seemingly become very conscientious in dealing with what you perceive as weak elements. I may be inaccurate in some respects, but the fact is that muslim immigration has made Western Europe a lot weaker in terms of its values. No one really knows how to deal with such an aggressive, antithetical ideology, that may include muslims who would like to be more moderate but cant, due to the compulsive nature of the religion.

Humanize - I dont think I reach anyone with this… there are like four readers and each one has their fixed position. ILP in 2014 was a different animal.

[Jakob]

Trump lies, but I dont think it is possible for a man to be more dishonest than Londons Mayor. A woman tries to get an answer from him about grooming gangs. I dare you to watch this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noJCNh60lfk

We can conclude the answer is “a lot”.

[HumAnIze]

@Jakob

Your technique in debate is to ignore what refutes your position and then seemingly become very conscientious in dealing with what you perceive as weak elements.

Thank you for articulating this so clearly. I’ve never been able to quite capture what they are doing with such perfect understanding.

[HumAnIze]

@Jakob

Humanize - I dont think I reach anyone with this… there are like four readers and each one has their fixed position. ILP in 2014 was a different animal.

Yes, I really miss ILP a decade ago.

[RealUn]

I prefer the 2008-2014 ILP era.

[Carleas]

@HumAnIze

Could have saved time by just coming clean from the start.

I thought I’d made it clear that I am a progressive liberal atheist, so I didn’t think it needed to be said that I’m not in favor of religious totalitarianism.

@Jakob

Carleas, the Swedish government is employing its military to combat immigrant crime and is planning to pay immigrants to go back home.

You keep saying “immigrant crime”, and that is question begging. Yes, crime is up in Sweden. Yes, they have had a high rate of immigration for many years. But they’ve also has an increasingly poor economic situation.

Going into the pandemic, income inequality reached all time highs:

Since recovering from the pandemic, GDP has stagnated (both real and per-capita), and may be falling. It was falling as of 2023:

And according to Swedish government’s statistics department, both GDP and household consumption were down in January and appear stagnant for the past few years.

Though unemployment fell with the recovery from the pandemic, it never reached it’s pre-pandemic lows:

More recent numbers look even worse: the government reports an unemployment rate of 10% as of January 2025.

Poverty and inequality predict crime much better than immigration, and controlling for poverty and unemployment, immigrants do not contribute more to crime than similarly placed natives.

But as the economic situation worsens, blaming minorities is a proven political strategy. Compare Ireland, which has higher percent of non-European immigrants than Sweden, but also a much higher per-capita GDP. There, the anti-immigrant rhetoric has been gained less traction. The UK, which has been stagnant for decades and shot itself in the foot with Brexit, has found a much more receptive audience for foreign scapegoating.

@Jakob

Do you see Christians or Hindus turn up in such numbers?

The Hindu population is half the size of the Muslim population, so why would we expect a similar size demonstration. But if you look for videos of Holi celebrations in London you’ll find them.

Similarly, a Christian group reenacts the Passion of the Christ in Trafalgar Square every year, with multiple shows with comparably sized audiences.

So, yeah, you do see other religions do their religious things in large numbers. It just doesn’t stand out because Christian shit is right and proper and Hindu shit is smaller because the population is smaller.

@Jakob

I mentioned that I am under a death sentence by islamists in my own country, and that anti islamic politicians have been murdered, others have fled, live in bunkers

I don’t know anything about this. Tell me more.

@Jakob

Your technique in debate is to ignore what refutes your position and then seemingly become very conscientious in dealing with what you perceive as weak elements.

I mean, no one I’ve offered rebuttals on this question has directly responded to any argument I’ve made. What, specifically, am I ignoring? Do those things outweigh the elements I’m being very conscientious about?

You too @HumAnIze. So glad this was articulated so clearly for you, now you can clearly articulate what, specifically, you’d like me to address.

@Jakob

muslim immigration has made Western Europe a lot weaker in terms of its values.

I think this is true, though not in the same way I think you mean it. The commitment to democracy is significantly weakened by the growing presence of disfavored groups among the electorate. Social welfare policies are weakened by the fact that general programs also help groups that many would prefer to see suffer. Western values of openness, inclusiveness, tolerance, equality are being tested, and many are relinquishing those values rather than follow them to the conclusion that they entail a multicultural, multiracial society.

This is what I meant when I said in another post that the EU is going through something similar to what the US has been going through for a generation: true diversity is hard to navigate. “No one really knows how” to make a culturally diverse society function. The US has tried, but humans’ natural tendency toward cultural chauvinism is hard to overcome, and half the country decided to burn down the successes we’ve had after seeing that it meant a black man could be president.

@Jakob

I dare you to watch this video.

I watched it. The Mayor is being careful, but I don’t think he’s being dishonest.

The question is rhetorical, she knows there’s no way to answer because there’s no definition of what she’s asking about. Sex trafficking happens, and if she cared about the impact in London she could ask how many victims there are, or how many perpetrators there are, or the structure of organized sex trafficking. But “how many rape gangs”? No government is tracking that, because it’s not a metric in policing anywhere.

It’s not dishonest to not answer her question, because there’s literally no way to answer it.

@RealUn

I prefer the 2008-2014 ILP era.

Yes, I too prefer the pre-Trump world.

[promethean75]

“I don’t know anything about this. Tell me more.”

Yeah, me too… and it better be good. He better not be tryna pull an Ecmandu.

Lemme fine’ out Jakob got in an argument with a Muslim emo kid at 4chan who cussed him out, and now Jakob fancies himself as a high-profile infidel being hunt down by jihadist assassins.

[Sculptor]

@Lorikeet

Sexual depravity is a symptom of civilizational collapse.

No the concept of “depravity” is a function of civlisation.
In nature there is no such thing as depravity.
Trans, homosexuality, intersex all exist harmoniously in nature.