We are looking at a disastrous end-game in Iraq that can have repercussions beyond comprehension.
We are seeing the results of a domino effect that began with wrong moves from the very beginning.
Everything about staring and ending the war in Iraq was ill-informed.
Re-examine this 20 point exercsise in self-destruct.
A preemptive military attack can only be justified if a nation faces eminent invasion itself
The claim that Iraq had WMD was false
The claim that Iraq aided and abetted Al Queda was false
The claim that we were ridding the world of a ruthless dictator was based on a false premise. The bitter ethnic divisions within the country reveal that it could only be held together by a strongman.
The claim that Iraq oil would pay for the war was false
By bombing major cities in Iraq we destroyed the county’s infrastructure and are now paying through the nose to rebuild it.
Collateral damage killed thousands of innocent people.
By deposing Hussein’s dictatorship we destabilize the existing order which led to anarchy and a dangerous insurgency.
By disbanding the Iraq army the country was left without the ability to police itself and stop rutheless ethnic cleansing
Four million Iraqis have been displaced from their homes and now form the world’s largest refugee problem.
Thats the better half of ther news. Now lets get to the after-effects.
American world leadership has lost all its former credibility.
We can longer take our goodwill to the bank as an asset.
The four hundred billion dollar price tag has drained the
American economy. Our infrastructure is crumbling and the country is on the verge of recession
The Bush administration still has a year to go
15 The rich and powerful inside America are securing their wealth by abandoning the dollar and putting their money in oil - in effect, aiding and abetting the supposed enemy.
The bull run on oil has driven the barrel cost up and it will keep rising, driving up the Price at the gas pump - making the oil shareholders richer while sticking it to the man on the street.
The on-going cost of the war - three hundred million dollars a day for another three hundred days, added to the desertion of the dollar, heralds the very real possibility of collapsing the entire American economy - leading to a recession that could make the one we experienced in the 1930’s look like a picnic.
Money for an already over-extended infrastructure will not be forth-coming.
19 The winter of 2009 might be the bleakest in US history.
The answer that could lessen the bitter after-taste.
Kick Bush out of office today. Impeach him and his entire cabinet.
Well, someone has a bit of Propaganda Madness, on their hands. Unfortunately the effects of the Iraq war can’t be summed up in a 20 point exercise. There is a whole lot more to it than you are telling.
I was not summing up 5000 years of history. Just the current reality. If you have anything of importance to add, don’t hesitate. And exactly where am I mad?
How much longer can the USA maintain such a large military deployment around the world is a good question. I think they should start downsizing the whole deal really fast, and just protect their own boundaries, the police man of the world job is getting too expensive and too heavy for the US.
Hubris knows no bounds. The US will not realize the tragic effects of its flawed foreign policy until its too late. We were lied to. I hope all of this has not gone down Orwell’s memory hole.
The end game should be to partition Iraq. It’s a made-up country to begin with. It required someone like Saddam to keep it together. What did we think would happen once he was gone?
We give the Kurds a country and we have an instant ally.
Kurds their own country, sounds bad for Turkey. Plus, regional dominance to Iran doesn’t sound too good either. The thing we need is a strong secular government in Iraq that can balance power in the region, say a group like the ba’ath party. Oh Shit
Underlying assumptions of Neo-conservativism, i.e. the current administration.
American Supremacy as a global hegemon…only world superpower
American leadership is the only catalyst for world cooperation
Without a major external threat as during the cold war and WW2, any military action must be oversold to the public if it is to get support.
Ahh, now Iraq makes sense, and the 20 points flow to the “plus” column, and the rest of the world is soon to line up in the American order.
Or if there is significant evidence that the nation will turn into a failed state and faces humanitarian meltdown. There is MASSIVE evidence that this is the case with iraq, WELL BEFORE the coalition forces ever stepped in. (I"m not pretending that was their only objective, but the truth remains)
sure.
Maybe, but they spoke kindly of one another and IRAQ was a center for terrorism before 9/11.
The meltdown was coming anyway, this is based on the false pretense that iraqi society was going to be held together and that there wasn’t massive evidence against this.
The oil is worth billions and taking the oil out of the hand of a religious state is also nice, not to mention the statistical power of winning iraq.
Again based on the notion that iraq wasn’t teetering into failed-state hood before the coalition. ITS JUST NOT CORRECT. Collateral damage killed thousands of people, MORE PEOPLE WOULD DIE WITHOUT THE COALITION. Its a brutal CIVIL WAR.
The kurds left a long time ago, all the more reason to secure iraq and not let it go the way of a failed state.
Wow, I think i’ll let this statement stand by itself.
The ideea that the countrry instantly fractured just because Saddam left power is so intellectually bankrupt and ill-researched that its seriously nauesating to see it repeated again and again and again and again by everyone.
Nihilistic - it is bad news for Turkey. Fuck Turkey. They’ll just have to adjust. Iran will not dominate the region - the US overwhelmingly dominates the region and will continue to do so. If we simply made nice with Iran, we’d be better off, partition or not. The current rhetoric - on both sides - about the emnity between the US and Iran is for domestic, and regional, consumption, and doesn’t amount to more than politicking. The current US administration is way out of control about this. Iran should be our ally - there is no good reason why it cannot be. You’re correct about the current US assumptions - they are sorely wrong-headed.
Turkey is a very important ally in regards to U.S. access to the middle east. Allowing/Causing the formation of a Kurdistan will put great strains on our relationship. Plus, the absolutely necessary ensuing war between Turkey and a newly formed “Kurdistan” has a strong possibility of spreading into a regional war. If you ask me, it is far too risky. Also, the last thing we need is to be forced further into middle east politics, which will happen or has happened post Saddam.
You’re right, there is no good reason. However, Iran’s ruling party is out of step with it’s population, and the same goes for America. Any relationship cannot happen until both countries de-radicalize there government and align with the sentiments of their respective citizens. Until then, giving Iran more relative influence over the region is unacceptable.
Turkey, Iran, Syria and the rest of Iraq will invade Kurdistan the day it announces its independence because Kurdistan is part of all these countries and the Kurds are fanatical tribalists. The only ones who don’t know this are the ones who want an independent Kurdistan. When the French and British divided up the old Ottoman Empire they deliberately divided Kurdistan up because they figured the Kurds were too belligerant to have their own country and would be nothing but trouble if they did.
This will not be another Kosovo, it will be more like Chechnya.
When the US leaves Iraq this will happen, even if the US does not leave for 50 years this will happen.
I don’t think we could stop Turkey from attacking Kurdistan, our threats and coercion would be less than credible. There is no way we would go to war with Turkey over “Kurdistan”, and they know it. Plus, suppose we do successfully prevent insta-destruction for Kurdistan, we destroy whatever soft power we have left in the region.
Again, it’s a matter of how credible our threats are. If we’re so damn sick of being in Iraq that we partition the country at a very high political cost, are these countries going to think we would go back in if they invaded the partition. I sure as hell wouldn’t support a war with Iran or Turkey if they invaded the partition, and I imagine they both know how the American public reverts to isolationist tendencies after a quagmire. Hence our position wouldn’t be credible, which would make them likely to invade, which would result in another U.S. war - this time regional - or we would do nothing and the middle east would erupt.
I also think that Iran would like nothing more than to be attacked by the United States, especially after Iraq and our subsequent aversion to toppling regimes/nation building. It would radicalize the moderates, and guarantee the ruling party support that they currently do not have, at a relatively low risk of being completely overthrown.
Anyway, I feel like our arguments are too thin to continue, and leave by saying the one thing I’m confident of: We’re all fucked no matter what we do.
Nihilistic - We could stop Turkey from attacking Kurdistan. You’re mixing up intent with ability. If we wouldn’t fight over Kurdistan, then we wouldn’t. My point is that we should, for our own sake. We should get out of Iraq with something. What it looks like now is that we will not get out any time soon, and that when we do, we will have gained nothing.
I’m not talking about threats. I’m talkng about phsyically defending that area of what is now Iraq. Again, if we just “wouldn’t”, then we won’t. I am saying that we should. I’m not saying we go back - I’m saying we partition Kurdistan and go in from the start. Occupy that region, where we are welcome by the indigenous population, who are more pro-american than your average Hawaiian, instead of occupying all of Iraq, as we do now.
We have no reason to go to war with Iran. Let them have the part of Iraq that they want. What the hell else are we going to do with it, build another Disney World?
The Middle east won’t erupt - it has already erupted. And we did most of the recent erupting there. We just wiped out an entire country. Do you think Syria could do worse?
Iran’s governement would be overthrown if we attacked. Else why would we attack? Who else would we be attacking? We would “win”. They would go the way of Saddam. But again, why should we do this?
We are not fucked at all. I’m not, anyway. I’m an american. I didn’t even think the Trade Towers were very attractive bulidings. And my taxes haven’t even gone up. How am i fucked?
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