The end of Progress

The beginning and end to progress:
Many people are enamored with progress to the point where the idea of progress is raised to the level of religion and is widely embraced by the industrialized nations. Some believe that you can reach a complete knowledge and create a perfect utopian society on christian precepts (called The New Polynesia).
The concept of scientific progress is only a few hundred years old. and is now so widly regarded that to claim it will come to an end is as outlandish as the earlier claim that the earth revolved around the sun.

The transition:
Industrial technocratic knowledge is not the way. its an economy based on violence against nature and culture. Its based on content not context, on products not processes. We need a new Mind. Our current mind needs to function in a different way. We have to forge a new path, blaize a new trail and ride the tiger of change.
How would you go about the process of shifting to the awareness of processes. What would this mind look like?

“There are many ways to love.” As the song goes.

When you wrote this, did you expect an answer to some question? Did you want to discuss the fact that you think that worms can never be put back into cans? I don’t get it, do you have a point?

Im saying that we dont need to progress further with our current Mind, we need a different Mind. A Mind that is all together different from our current Mind.
How do you see the future?
What does this new Mind look like?

Can you be a lot more specific?

I agree with your second post, joe; in fifty or a hundred years’ time, the human brain will be too slow, clumsy, and limited to continue progress. The way to keep progress moving is through superintelligent machines.

Cyrene, having read a substantial amount of what you post, I have to say that this made me laugh out loud. He’s talking about the brain and evolution…here we go. =D>

Is that really Rafa I just saw :open_mouth:

Can you define scientific progress? What is it’s goal? That is to say, what is science progressing toward: efficiency? Are nuclear rockets the type of progress you have in mind? Medicinal progress is excellent, our ability to cure previously uncurable diseases . . . but the rest of it? Building on the moon? What is the main goal toward which scientific progress strives toward (can a philosophical answer be provided here, not just faster cars, taller buildings and bigger bombs).

Too late to avoid pain. The bone was broken when the Romans fell; it was cast wrong during the 1500’s. Now you have to break the entire bone again and recast it. It’s gonna hurt a lot and there’s no anesthesia for humanity. So you have to think, is all that pain necessary when you can just hobble with a wrong leg?

Good way to put it. But you know, not many Aussies give a shit about (decadent) moral living, which helps make this the best place in the South. Enlightenment doesn’t equal misery here; maybe you should emigrate?

i can see your point about rejecting progress and technology… i just hope that you practice what you preach, anything less would be hypocritical:

-you better not live in a house or any other type of modern building
-you better not eat any food from a company or grocery store
-you better not use any electricity at all
-you better not own any appliances or tools of any kind that you did not make on your own from scratch
-you better not wear any clothes that were manufactured by a company
-you better never take medications or go to a hospital or medical clinic

… oh wait… youre posting here on the internet, which means you have a computer and electricity and internet access… hmm, i guess that means you dont reject technology after all…?

cmon people-- technology is our adaptation, it is our way of surviving in nature. we need to think, to use our mind to survive, since it is the only natural tool we have at our disposal. humanity would have died out long ago if it rejected its mind and technological progress. i dont think you even realise that you are advocating for the end of humanity itself… how long do you think we can survive in a harsh nature without technology, without our mind?

Yeah I heard the surfing is great. I knew this Aussie chick once. Pretty face, bad teeth though. I’m not generalizing, but it could be the marmite.

LOL. I hate marmite. But I love Vegemite, heaps thick on buttered toast.

PS. I edited my previous post a little.

Do you really think our current use of industrial technology is helping to continue our survival on this planet?
Economic growth no matter what the cost is not a good policy for our survival. Its the last hurah.
Im not rejecting technology Im rejecting the the management of these complex technologies. The old stye industrialism is outdated, and based on inadaqate understanding of human needs and potetials and with limited awareness of Natures crucial role in production.
We need technologies based on a deeper understanding of Nature. An ecological economic order with ecologically based enterprises that model her processes. The Solar age.

I think he may be all too aware, actually:

TTG,

Your faith in our current logic and reasoning is just as delussional as the most religious person.
I think we have found Three times great’s religion. All hail progress. Blessed are those who love technology. I guess religion is crutial to our survival after all, ehh TTG.

thanks for putting words into my mouth spider, words which are completely untrue. i cant believe any thinking person could confuse reason and logic with religion: how do beliefs based on NO REASONS equate to beliefs based on REASONS/LOGIC…?? they are not even comparable; apples and oranges.

since youre otherwise a smart person spider, i can assume that you are capable of making this distinction, between reason and religion; therefore its easy to see that you are deliberately trying to confuse the issue and discredit me by trying to make me look bad. it seems there are so many people on here who, when i get close to the heart of their flawed beliefs, they instinctively lash our with irrelevant and irrational statements like these, to try and distract me and confuse the issues. unfortunately, its not going to work. it didnt work with wonderer, it didnt work with unity, and its not going to work with you. nice try though.

to your previous question, Why do i believe in progess? that question may better be phrased: Why do i believe in human survival? we survive by progress; technology is our means of gaining knowledge and applying it practically to our lives. like i said before, if you reject technology and progress then you better live in a cave somewhere. see how much you like it. the “new mind” youre taking about is that of a pre-civilized tribal brute, hunched over grinding corn all day for a measly amount of bread, and worshipping the rocks and the birds above.

man has MIND, he has REASON and LOGIC and CONSCIOUSNESS… these things combine to form his survival tools: man has no survival instincts, he is not born with the knowledge of how to build a house or hunt for food. man has no claws, no fangs, no great strength: he has his mind. thats it. what youre talking about is abandoning that mind, so that man returns to primitive status, where his survival is as much a matter of ecological and natural luck as anything else, not to mention the misery and despair that would come with returning to a primitive existence.

progress is not perfect; no one says it is. sometimes we destroy too much of the earth’s resources too fast, before they can regrow; sometimes we generate too much waste, or use our intellect to create weapons of terrible power. but to abandon all progress is far more dangerous: it would be to abandon our ability to survive.

man does not “adapt” to nature, he does not find a niche within nature and survive by conforming to his environment’s demands: man CHANGES his environment, he adapts nature to his needs. this is man’s calling, his ability to survive, his destiny. this is the nature of the mind. we can think, therefore we can learn what is true and use this knowledge to benefit ourselves.

when you talk about depleting resources, or overpopulation, these things cannot be addressed by abandoning technology and progress: throughout his history, man has been faced with limited resources and limiting circumstances, yet it is precisely TECHNOLOGY and PROGRESS that find ways around this: man finds that oil is running out? he embraces free progress in technology and developes a new energy source. man find that some places are overpopulated? he embraces free progress in technology and developes new food delivery and growing techniques, new housing techniques, someday space exploration and colonization of the moon to address these needs. when we use our mind, when we apply our thinking reasoning ability to our problems, we can always find a solution. yet when we abandon our mind to live like primitive savages, starving off the land, wasting 10 hours a day just trying to catch and kill one animal for food, there is no hope of addressing the real problems that we face.

animals survive by luck; they are victims of their environment, of predation, floods, droughts, fire, etc. if you advocate for the abolition of man’s mind and his ability to apply his mind to his life (technology and progess), then you advocate for man to lower himself to the status of ordinary animals, and be just as dependent and powerless as they are.

While there may indeed be some people enamored with scientific and technological progress, far too many people do not fall into that category. We have an economy that’s hampered by a much older, more basic “mind”: that of politics, power and greed. Scientific progress is being diminished, not increased, by the current political and educational system.

Of course, that doesn’t answer your question, just your premise. Perhaps a person can be content to struggle day-in and day-out to make a living, and being philosophical about it when disaster or disease strikes, but I think we can all be more spiritual when progress has reached a point where one doesn’t have to struggle for a living, or even put up with a boring, meaningless job to pay the bills.

The necessary transition is to allow people the freedom to pursue what is truly meaningful and valuable to them, and diminish the powermongers who wish to live at other people’s expense and hold the rest of us back from pursuing our lives. True progress is liberating, not enslaving.

Its painfully obvious that you didnt read my previous response, to your previous post; that I anywhere rejected technology.
Please read my response.

Ill respond latter to this post.
spyder

spider i did read your post, and i was responding exactly to what you stated-- i just dont think that you are following your conclusions through to their logical ends…

And I dont think you are following your conclutions to their logical ends…
Progress as it is currently defined is based on superficial outdated mentalities, conerned with methods of production and distribution. It is my humble opinion that the chance of our species surviving with dignity on this planet hinges on the acquisition of a new mind. By a new mind I mean a a shift of our attention. How can you apply logic/reason to something your not paying attention to; something you dont value. Our current mentality is causing the crisis that is currently threatening our survival. A crisis you have not acknowledged or even commented on. It is therefore clear that you are advocating a blind faith that our current philosophy of life is not failing and will continue to sustain us. Amen.