the eternal graduate question...

pursue a phd in philosophy or head to law school?

i’ve asked a couple of old philosophy professors, and they both seem to be steering me toward a law degree because it’s much more versatile.

the target for enrollment is fall 2010, but the rest is really unsure.

philosophy is incredibly exciting and i imagine that being a professor would be the greatest thing i could do with my life. it’s the time between graduation and finding any sort of position that really scares me, i don’t know how i would handle the kind of loan payments that 200k+ in debt would demand.

on the other hand, law offers many options for a life afterward. depending on the school i attend, i can expect to be on-board somewhere within a month.

i hate to say it’s about the money, but it is. no matter how much i say “it’s not about the money”, i know that economics drives almost every decision we make in society. does anyone have any suggestions?
#-o

If it is a question about money, the question should be, “how much?” While getting a tenured position is a sweet gig, it is also really really hard. On the other hand, just working in academia has a lot of advantages. A large paycheck isn’t one of them, but you can easily make more than enough to get by. Worst case scenario, you end up working at a community college, which in the US pays roughly $40K/year for an 8 hour work-week. Not a lot of bread, but a lot of time to philosophize and enjoy life.

A job in law, on the other hand, will be substantially busier but also substantially better compensated. So, what do you want?

be prepared for a roundabout babbling that gets to a point.

i’ve been asking myself what i want for a long time… i never give a straight answer. the main reason that i’m disappointed with what i’m doing now is that i don’t feel engaged. don’t misconstrue, i enjoy being an investment representative, i like helping people plan for retirement… but it’s like pulling teeth most of the time. i’m seen as the big bad salesman that only wants everyone’s money.

if i ask myself question “what do i want?”, the response that i invariably give is that i’m pursuing work that is engaging, rewarding, has some economic perks, and helps me to appreciate and enjoy life. there are many things that i like doing, many things that would like to do, and many things that i haven’t even considered, and if i continue working the crap jobs that i keep seeing, i’ll spend more time hating life than loving it.

as it stands, my employment is 1099 work and most people are too scared to do anything, so i maintain a part-time night audit job for guaranteed income. the night-audit fits the bill for the perfect job in every aspect except money. i have an average of four hours per night of down-time when i can read, write, converse with people, anything, as long as my duties are fulfilled. i started delivering pizza for a couple of short shifts per week (i did that while pursuing my AAS degree), and that job is great because i get payed to drive around and listen to public radio, lectures, whatever. the biggest problem with these jobs is the lack of money, i can’t afford to go anywhere (bike across germany? not happening), my diet is pretty basic, my investments are lagging because i can’t afford to fund them, etc. my epicurean desires are suffering, which means my life is just a few notches above meaningless (the down-side of leaning heavily toward hedonism).

hmm, this is really turning into a mild-mannered rant.

in a nutshell, i’ve discovered the best way out of my predicament: relocation. it seems like the stereotypical “pie in the sky” dream that many people think will help them, when all they end up doing is spending a large sum of money to go be miserable somewhere else. fargo, nd has NOTHING to offer young people. i can’t even keep track of all the people i’ve met that have BA/BS degrees or better that are working $7-10/hr jobs without any benefits because they can’t get anything better. our education has become a double-edged sword. they (yes, the amorphous “they”) won’t hire us for upper or mid-level positions because we lack experience, and we can’t get entry-level positions to gain experience because they’re afraid that we’ll leave soon after starting. ](*,) by moving elsewhere, i could find better work (the work i find would determine where i go) and potentially get closer to more opportunities for more enjoyment. what’s stopping the emigration? that’s right, $$$.

now that i’ve finally written this, it seems i’ve created a catch 22 for myself: i want to leave here because i lack funds, i’m not leaving because i lack funds, and if i had funds… would i still want to leave? :-k my mother is in a well-established position and doesn’t plan on going elsewhere, my grandparents are also here with intent to stay here, so i’ve got a couple of important reasons to stay. suggesting that i need to “let go of the apron-strings” seems a little inaccurate because that’s just the way we italians function. lastly, getting into a well-respected school (for law or philosophy) will require me to relocate temporarily, and maybe that will be just what it takes to convince me to follow my interests in a new locale.

clear?

Jezus Christ- get the fuck out of there! :astonished: I’ve actually been to Fargo, and it’s the armpit of the world. Isn’t winter the worst 7 months of the year up there? :laughing:

actually, i enjoy the weather here :smiley:
maybe you’re not familiar with the climate here… most people think that winter is the only undesirable time of year.
june-august we have incredibly hot and humid weather (temperatures >90F and humidity >70%) with mosquitoes that are as big as ATVs and more bountiful than kant interpretations. yes, i have seen them carry toddlers away.
september is usually warm
october is usually cool, sometimes some snow flurries
november starts getting cold, sometimes there is bountiful snow
december is when the snow hits if it hasn’t fallen yet
december-february will redefine cold in the newcomer’s mind
march is just cold
april = flood
may = more flood

no one else has input?

This is ILP.
Do both, what are you, a slouch?

are you suggesting law school and then a phd afterward? i’ve considered that.
after talking to my old advisor, i’m planning to take the gre and lsat to see if that pushes me one way.

In America is there any equivalent to a Masters qualification? That is a postgraduate philosophy degree that’s one or two years that can give you a taster for postgraduate philosophy work but doesn’t commit you to the full PhD? Personally I’d advise that; it makes you much more employable than a standard degree (in the UK unemployment for masters graduates is 2%), would be useful even if you went into law, and gives you a taster of what postgraduate philosophy is like as it is rather different from undergraduate work so you can assess what you prefer.

That is, assuming that there is some equal equivalent, I am almost entirely ignorant of the American education system :slight_smile:.

Oh, and “the response that i invariably give is that i’m pursuing work that is engaging, rewarding, has some economic perks, and helps me to appreciate and enjoy life”. You can get there with law, but it’s frickin hard work.

You can get a Master’s in the US. The trick is that with a PhD, there is usually a (modest) stipend, whereas an MA is almost always paid out of pocket. Since schooling in the US is very expensive, that makes an MA unreachable for many.

However, there is a work-around worth considering: almost all PhD programs require the candidates get an MA. So the first two years of your PhD (with stipend) is getting your MA. Unscrupulous people will sometimes take their MA and run with it after that time.

It makes getting letters of recommendation a little tough, since departments don’t like it. But it is something worth considering. The letters of recommendation and such can be overcome if you can create some sort of crisis that justifies it (getting pregnant works).

I have relatives in ND, and I realize the summer weather sucks almost as bad as the winter weather. I saw on the web that the summer record is somewhere over 110 degrees F…

xunzian, you hit the nail on the head for an explanation about seeking a phd, i was unaware that the ma could be acquired while enrolled as a phd student. it seems that this reveals a couple of doors worth opening. one professor has suggested that i take the law school path or pursue an ma in the hopes of improving my chances at getting into michigan, princeton, et al.
i think vying for a phd program that requires the ma first would be my best choice; less pain to get the ma and a less expensive way to discover that doctoral philosophy is/n’t in my future. i’ll go ask about this option and see where the discussion goes.
as to how i would go about getting into another graduate program or law school after dropping out of a phd for anything other than a catastrophe… i’m guessing my only option is “don’t”.

xunzian, i spoke to one of my professors about getting a master’s while enrolled as a phd student, and he hadn’t heard of that being done. :shrug: what he did suggest is that it may be possible to find a ta-ship to help offset the cost of getting a master’s in preparation for a phd.

You should really think, “whats going to make me happy in the long run?” HAPPINESS > MONEY. No matter who tells you wrong, trust in your instincts. Your first decision is probably your best. Good luck! :smiley: