The French term “Mouton de Panurge” describes an individual that blindly follows others regardless of the consequences.
Take the ILP forum for example … there is copious discussion, debate and argument … confined largely to the arena of Western thought. So little appetite for Eastern thought.
“We always feel more secure when the majority of those around us agree with the direction in which we are moving”
Author Unknown
I present this not as a criticism … rather … a simple statement of fact.
Well, I hope we can each get as much as possible out of my gadfly role in your threads.
It is a forum attended by people from Western cultures, so there is going to be a tendency to work with the kinds of ideas this generates. Calling it flock implies that it is attavistic - heh, heh, I’ll have you looking back nostalgically on words like immanence - or a fearful response to peer pressure, rather than simply a natural outgrowth of this or that childhood. Wouldn’t it be better to express Eastern thought, here, and see if this can be done interestingly enough to lead conversation towards what you think would be less flocklike. There are people here who know quite a bit about Eastern thought, though they tend to focus elsewhere. Even the idea of Eastern thought - that complicated and diverse set of traditions including those of nations with billions of people and hundreds of languages - implies a kind of flocking. Hey, let’s go East and look back on the West. And there is a flock that does this. But then there are individual, primates shall we say, who have done this and can get into specific issues, perhaps their experiences with specific traditions and practices they found there and give an interesting discussion a start.
Moreno … I said it before … let me say it again … I find your posts enormously helpful!!
Metaphorically speaking … more than 20 years ago I got into a boat with a large sail and no rudder. I was a lifetime resident of Canada at the time. About 10 years ago this ‘boat’ docked in China … and I’m still here.
Deductive reasoning … and as you already know … I use the term but I don’t clearly understand it’s meaning … tells me there must be something I must learn that can only be learned living in China.
I’m very human … I want to share my new thoughts (learning) with others.
Well, my take is start with experiences, then move to thoughts, then back to experiences. From what I read so far you could be some guy who never left Saskatoon except once when he bought a bunch of New Age books and the Tao in a bookstore in Calgary. You might never have meditated, never have had a cross cultural experience, other than seeing a few first nations guys off the rez in the distance, and no knowledge of Eastern thinking at all. But if you have lived in China as someone growing up in the northern americas, you have definitely run into crosscultural experiences and to some extent have learned to at least seem to think like the local chinese population. I would begin with specific experiences where you learned about your own assumptions, habits of mind, methods through it not working with specific Chinese individuals there. That is something people can connect to. Does not have to be a long post. I asked the Postman why…and he said…and I had no idea what that meant. Two years later I realized that for him… Or if you have had direct contacts with, say, taoist masters, walk us through your own insights in situ. I was sitting on the bench and I figured X, but then he said No. Later…and so on.
Not at some very abstract level, but right on the ground. Telling people they are exhibiting flock behavior is likely not to win friends and influence people. Further even the idea of ‘flock behavior’ being negative is kinda Western.
Moreno … I don’t respond well to being ‘told’ what to do … never have!
Having said that …
To speak of my experiences and thoughts while living in China … isolating them from my experiences and thoughts prior to coming to China … particularly the 10 or so years immediately prior IMHO would be imprudent.
For anyone interested in reading about some of my experiences and thoughts during the past 20+ years … they can be found here pilgrimtom.weebly.com/
I will share one memorable experience. A few years ago I visited the town of Qufu in the Province of Shangdong … the birth place … and resting place of Confucius. I went there specifically to speak directly with Confucius … unfortunately at the time he still couldn’t converse in English
The visit left me awestruck … I saw what appeared to be ‘hard evidence’ of his existence … tombs for 75 generations of his family … all in one place.
Contrast this to the man known as Jesus Christ … 500 years younger than Confucius … and still no archaeological evidence of his existence.
Either the writings are useful to you and others or they are not.?
[/quote]
The writings have had a substantial impact on my world view. As to “others” some argue that China … a rather large community of persons … maintained a feudal society for more than 2,000 years … in large part … attribute this fact to the writings.
Of course the Western psyche sees this fact … the 2,000 continuous years of feudalism … as a horrible blight on humanity … I’m not so sure.
Seems anthropology has no place in your consideration of history?
Let’s say all ‘religions’ are stories. Since besides imagination … humans are capable of thought, reason, logic, intuition etc … some people are inclined to challenge ‘stories’ … searching for evidence to either support or refute the story. Some people call this philosophy.
About the Jesus story …
The prevailing core of the story is fact … proof is unnecessary. The planet is in fact flat.
The prevailing core of the story is fiction. Demands that all evidence be destroyed.
People discuss primarily Western philosophy and Western religion here because it’s an English-speaking website, that’s the beginning and end of that little mystery.
We attribute to people being part of a ‘flock’ mentality when we know very little about them. When you are judging people based on one thing they do or one thing they believe without actually knowing those people’s individual histories, of course they all seem to be the same.
I asked “so what” if there are tombs of Confucius and his family and none for Jesus. What possible difference could the existence of such structures make?
Are you interested in history, anthropology or the philosophy of these two individuals?
I thought that it was philosophy but I appear to be mistaken.
You can’t know if the story of Jesus is real or not because either the physical evidence was lost or it never existed. Only the stories remain.
Moving on …
Does Jesus (fictitious or not) propose a way of living which is worth considering or perhaps even emulating?
Pardon my misunderstanding … I thought people discuss philosophy and religion here because there exists a common desire to broaden/deepen their understanding of human life. Microscopically examining a significant chunk of humanity may or may not provide a complete answer.
Agreed
OTH when we examine a single drop of ocean water we are comfortable drawing conclusions about the nature of the ocean … the water component of the ocean … yet seems to me not all individual drops of water that make up the ocean are identical. Seems to me both the general conclusions and the individual examination/analysis are valid.
[quote=“phyllo”]
I asked “so what” if there are tombs of Confucius and his family and none for Jesus. What possible difference could the existence of such structures make?
[quote]
I think a horrendous amount of effort over a couple of millenniums has been made to locate material evidence to support the Jesus story. Has all this effort been made in vain?
[quote=“phyllo”]
Are you interested in history, anthropology or the philosophy of these two individuals?
I thought that it was philosophy but I appear to be mistaken.
[quote]
Seems to me if we put philosophy in a ‘box’ … ie … to the exclusion of history, anthropology etc … philosophy is no better than any individual religion.
[quote=“phyllo”]
You can’t know if the story of Jesus is real or not because either the physical evidence was lost or it never existed. Only the stories remain.
[quote]
Agreed … yet I would add that credible evidence may have been destroyed. For example … in the Jesus story … Jesus was a Jew. At that time Jewish people were fastidious about maintaining lineage records. Where are they?
[quote=“phyllo”]
Does Jesus (fictitious or not) propose a way of living which is worth considering or perhaps even emulating?
[quote]
I believe there are many “proposals for a way of living which are worth considering or perhaps even emulating” in both the NT and the OT. Some argue a culture that sincerely embraced the ancient 613 laws of Judaism would be wonderful. Some say the basic message of the NT is “LOVE” … surely a culture formed solely on the principles of “LOVE” would be OK??
You’re not always going to find what you are looking for.
I tend to accept that what was once called philosophy(practically all knowledge) has separated into many distinct branches with specific interests and techniques.
Sounds inflexible.
How would that work in practice? What would the interactions be like?
I don’t find that to be entirely true. I find a lot of discussion revolving around Eastern thought here at ILP. I don’t know if it counts as a majority, but it’s definitely not insignificant. The question is: if a community of mostly Westerners were to partake in discussions around Eastern thought a lot of the time, would that always be recognized as Eastern thought? After all, if you see it being discussed by Westerners for long enough, it will eventually become recognized as Western thought.
Not breaking away from the flock is not always a sign of blind conformity. Suppose the flock consisted mostly of independent thinkers who could really see reality for what it was. Would they necessarily all go in different directions? If they all see the same reality, shouldn’t we expect them to all conform to the same behavior?
It’s just a practical matter. This is an English speaking website, so of course you’ll find more western philosophy discussed here. I’m sure on the Japanese-language equivalent of ilovephilosophy out there somewhere, they are discussing mostly eastern philosophy, and there is a Japanese-speaking version of you encouraging them to delve more into western ideas. It’s neither good or bad, it just is.
[quote=“phyllo”]
You’re not always going to find what you are looking for.
[quote]
That’s the “raison d’etre” for ILP … no? It’s the ‘search’ … the ‘response to yearning’ that’s all the fun … the ‘destination’ is irrelevant … no?
[quote=“phyllo”]
I tend to accept that what was once called philosophy(practically all knowledge) has separated into many distinct branches with specific interests and techniques.
[quote]
It happened so it must be a necessary step. Perhaps this is what some Chinese Philosophers refer to as “Reversion of the Extremes” … when ‘separation’ reaches the extreme it naturally reverts back to it’s opposite … unity … and vice versa. Perhaps this is akin to the Western notion of hypothesis … antithesis … synthesis.
[quote=“phyllo”]
How would that work in practice?
I have no idea? Seems to me humanity must reach critical mass in “intention” before any consideration of the question “How”
[quote=“phyllo”]
What would the interactions be like?
Uccisore … I hope … with all my heart … you just described the next step in the evolution of ILP. It’s a fantastic forum … populated with brilliantly endowed minds … but it needs to grow into an international forum. Translation software tools are sufficient to bridge the language communication gaps.
The rose bud must open in order to allow the rose flower to blossom.
As St Augustine wrote about human conversation … paraphrasing …each word we utter must die(the sound produced must fade into the shadows) to make room for the word that follows.
OTH “How many oceans are on earth? Although the oceans of the earth are all connected and truly one “World Ocean,” most often the world is divided into four major “oceans” - the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean…” … author unknown
Phyllo … how can I refuse such a kind and generous invitation.
Since my post where i introduced (again ) the Chinese notion of Reversion of the Extremes … I have reflected on my experiences and thoughts around my personal introduction to the concept … can’t recall the experiences so much though.
The “author” of the notion “Reversion of the Extremes” is Mother Nature herself. Yes … of course … human agency was involved in bringing this ‘truth’ into human consciousness … largely attributed to an ancient Chinese sage "Lao Tzu.
Let me attempt to illustrate with the life cycle of a Rose … long a symbol of beauty … both visual and nasal.
Let define the life cycle as from seed to the rose flower blossoming … not a very long time … yet all energy of the rose plant is directed at one particular target … the rose blossom(s).
The life cycle of the “rose blossom” is much shorter … her beauty and attractiveness quickly fades. What happens? The rose flower has reached it’s extreme and it dies … a natural reversion from life to death.
Some may say … but hold on a minute … the rose plant lives on and other roses will blossom. Perhaps this is where the Buddhist notion of Reincarnation comes from.
Seems to me there are countless illustrations in nature that confirm the validity expressed in the “Reversion of Extremes” philosophy. Much like the countless examples of the Western notion of hypothesis … antithesis … synthesis … a philosphical notion that has withstood the test of time.
For those readers whom the rose plant allegory is too simplistic … how about the rise and fall of Empires/Civilizations … Greece, Persia, Egypt come to mind.
