I see people are beginning to understand the modern state and what it means.
You see strikes at fast food chains and wal-marts. this new battle is about the middle class,
the working poor and the poor finally understanding what it means to be a serf in modern society.
I use the word serf on purpose and with understanding what the word means. People are fed up
with being cannon fodder for big business and their political cronies. The battle lines are being clearly
drawn up with the two sides staking out their positions. For those who naively say, just leave your job if
your are unhappy totally miss the point. EVERY single job is just a cog in the machine and every single job
is being a serf. just some jobs pay a little bit better than others but that doesn’t make it less
a serf job, just a better paying serf job. The system is designed to suck you in and there is only two
choices, totally in or totally out and being totally out effectively means starvation.
What is stopping the lower classes from open warfare is twofold, one, a clear and defined
mission statement and two, a leader who puts the pieces all together. Once we have a leader,
who by the way will be assassinated by the upper class, once that happens the firestorm will begin.
Think of JFK, RFK MLK and what it meant then. The upper class has used force, violence and assassination to
move and protect their agenda. We, the royal we as I am one with the lower class, must return the violence regardless
of the cost and consequences. This war will be to the death. At no point in time or history has the upper class willingly
given up their wealth and privileges so we must fight, die if need be. The future depends on us to free society.
those who disagree, feeling nothing is wrong or just minor changes at best are needed, I say wake up and see
what is happening every day on the streets of America and the world. The battle for society has already begun,
you need to see this and pick sides. The future will happen regardless of whether you think so or not, so get ready.
it is changing everything.
I have argue this point before and been called “Un-American” but the facts suggest it not
about any conspiracy or being un-whatever, it is about something greater than being American.
When I am concerned for my fellow man, it is not about being American or being white or being
whatever, it is about my fellow human beings. Just as humans have gone from thinking in terms
of family, then clan, then village to city to state to country, we must take the next step and
begin to think in terms of being human then the next step will be in terms of life. WE have a kinship to
humans and to life for we are humans and we are life. This evolution of growth in kinship must continue
and it will continue as people are beginning to see it. Just as we see the evolution going from small to big,
family to country, the path will go on to other humans and life. When I defend my fellow working poor, I am defending
my fellow human being again the greed of the wealthy who don’t value their fellow human being and deny their
humanness. I don’t know the future and don’t know what course the revolution will take, but revolution it must be.
Some ask what it will like afterwards, I have no idea and frankly don’t care because I will be long dead. I can only
fight for my fellow human being regardless of the color of their skin or what religion they practice or their
place of birth, because in the end none of that matters because we are the same, we are human beings and
soon we shall see that fundelmental idea everywhere which soon shall include all life.
I don’t know if you have any prior awareness of it, but it’s alligned with your train of thought. Systems thinking beyond the narrow distinctions of class, race or country. We advocate looking at the species as a single organism and considering the health of all, instead of a few.
How TZM differs from your post, is that it is anti-violence. In the vain of Martin Luther King Jr.
Why would we want to hurt the people that have hurt us? Are they not themselves victims of our society?
They are not happy. They are not healthy.
TZM advocates love for all, not most. To heal the sick, not eliminate them. We do battle with the distortions of value, not with the people that have distorted values.
People are not their sickness, but sufferers and victims of it.
Your (Kropotkin) posts remind me of two things. The first, Orwell’s Animal Farm, and the second, a quote I’ve seen elsewhere that goes along these lines: “A liberal is someone who wants to give away someone else’s property.”
Anyway, this just sounds like job-dissatisfaction. But really, we’re not defined by the work we do. Especially if it’s a shitty job. It’s the other factors in life that make it special, not some bullshit about humanity (admit it, it’s a fraud, a front), but the immediate things at hand, immediate relationships, immediate experiences, immediate goals and challenges.
Give me enough money to live on and support my family, and as much time as possible with the people I care about and respect and as much laughter as possible, and I’m content. And to hell with wealth, and all these lies about “humanity.”
You don’t believe in the integrity of those who care for humanity, that’s a reflection on you, not on me or Peter.
As for property. It’s a lie. A fabrication people invented to protect their own welfare in times of scarcity.
There’s many ‘liberals’ who dedicate huge amounts of their time to others, give away all their earnings and live on nothing. They’re not just giving away other people’s ‘property’.
Who owns the water? Who owns the air?
Is letting all people drink and breath giving away other people’s ‘property’?
My notion of “humanity” is via Max Stirner. That it’s a concept just like “church” and “state” where the individual is exploited for the purpose of the ideal and not for himself.
You’re living in a dream if you think property rights are going to change anytime soon, barring some sort of catastrophe.
Why would they give everything away and live on nothing? What good is that going to do anyone? This perfectly illustrates my first point anyway.
Well, I pay a water bill so I guess someone owns the water that comes through my tap. And I guess the state owns the air, or air-space anyway.
They do this because they appreciate the deprivation that occurs in our society and do not want to contribute to it, but rather counteract it by impacting positively the lives of others, whatever the degree.
They care about they welfare of others, and keep only what they truly need for themselves.
You pay for the mechanisms that allow water to be delivered to your home and for the sanitization of water.
No one owns the right to air. States claim the right to space, because space is scarce. Air is not.
Water isn’t scarce, that’s why we don’t pay for that either.
That’s nice of them. I hope it all works out and the beneficieries of their charity are able to get themselves out of the ditch their in.
However, the majority of society, those with money and those without, are mostly on one script, and the likes of your friends are on another. It’s an absurd reality of developed nations that despite some people being poor, they still have a large wide-screen TV to sit infront of every night.
You’ll have to explain this to me further. Are you referring to something I said?
Sighhh…I made a quip about liberals. A quip. If you want the truth from me about liberals, and conservatives, and the whole political spectrum it’s this: Fuck politics.
Your “humanity” is a political tool. So fuck that also. Although, I still think there is a grain of truth in my original quote on liberals.
Serfs with ipads bitching about how bad they have it online while they sit at Starbucks. Yeah, something needs to be done about this entitled attitude where people think they don’t have enough just because they heard somebody else has more.
Let me shed a little light on something- people who work at McDonalds, people who work at Walmart- they aren’t poor. At least, not in the “oh my God somebody help them” sense. If you want to talk about the poor, at least talk about the poor in india or the poor in africa or the poor in some place where the poor actually suffer.
What’s stopping the lower classes from open warfare is that they don’t have a good reason to. They simply aren’t in as dire straits as you pretend they are, or they would revolt, in plenty of places they DO revolt. Revolt is work. Warfare is work. You know what’s less work than warfare? Getting ahead in the American economic system. It’s the simple law of least resistance. If you’re really that pissed off about your place in society, doing something about it using the system is easier than doing something about it by fighting- the system works in other words, it can’t be denied. It won’t happen here in the U.S. unless the left really and truly manages to manipulate people to the point that they think only owning 3 internet-accessing devices, a single automobile, and having fewer bedrooms than you have residents is ‘poor’.
Socialism, leftism in America ceased to be about helping the poor ages ago. It’s just about spite against the wealthy now.
Uccisore: Serfs with ipads bitching about how bad they have it online while they sit at Starbucks. Yeah, something needs to be done about this entitled attitude where people think they don’t have enough just because they heard somebody else has more.
K: UM, missing the point. It is an understanding of what is happening to 99% of all americans.
It is not about an entitled attitude which is the common misunderstanding to this.
if people are suffering, unable to feed themselves, that is what I am talking about.
U: Let me shed a little light on something- people who work at McDonalds, people who work at Walmart- they aren’t poor. At least, not in the “oh my God somebody help them” sense. If you want to talk about the poor, at least talk about the poor in india or the poor in africa or the poor in some place where the poor actually suffer.
What’s stopping the lower classes from open warfare is that they don’t have a good reason to. They simply aren’t in as dire straits as you pretend they are, or they would revolt, in plenty of places they DO revolt. Revolt is work. Warfare is work. You know what’s less work than warfare? Getting ahead in the American economic system. It’s the simple law of least resistance. If you’re really that pissed off about your place in society, doing something about it using the system is easier than doing something about it by fighting- the system works in other words, it can’t be denied. It won’t happen here in the U.S. unless the left really and truly manages to manipulate people to the point that they think only owning 3 internet-accessing devices, a single automobile, and having fewer bedrooms than you have residents is ‘poor’.
K: Being poor as with EVERYTHING is relative. They are not only poor but they have no chance of improving their lives.,
witness the fact that Wal-mart actually had signs up asking workers to donate to other workers so they can have
a thanksgiving dinner. They are not paid enough to afford a decent thanksgiving dinner and wal-mart even acknowledge
that by their sign. The system has failed. It is as simple as that. That is enough to drive the unhappiness with society.
The fact is the upper class has been at war with the working poor and middle class for decades and they have
decided to fight back. when one side has been at war with you for decades, you finally had have enough and fight back.
U: Socialism, leftism in America ceased to be about helping the poor ages ago. It’s just about spite against the wealthy now.’
K: the wealthy is driving the war against the poor. Remove the wealthy and maybe we have a chance to return society
to a point where ever person is treated with decency and respect.
It’s not about the money. It’s about how people are TREATED. Humans aren’t slaves and no on deserves to be treated so.
A greater wrong doesn’t make a lesser wrong tolerable, or justifiable. If a man in one country beats his wife once a week, and a man in another country beats his wife ten times a week, your logic says to the first woman, ‘Shut the fuck up, you ungrateful slut. You don’t know how lucky you are.’ That is utterly distorted and ignorant. I pity you for thinking it.
My father worked his whole life in a factory where his ‘superiors’ were racist to him, abused him day in and day out, and he earned less money than had he been on welfare. If you tell me that’s how a person ought to be treated, and if they have any discontent they’re just selfish, you’re a fucking idiot and I have no respect for your opinions.
Our system perpetuates inequality and classism. Not everyone can be an astronaut. If everyone tries, only a few will be accepted and the rest will stay unemployed, not because of any deficit within them, but that there’s a limit to the amount required by our system. This same principle applies to all jobs, if there’s no demand for a job, people can’t do it. The only jobs available are those that there’s demand for, the end of the line. McDonalds, Walmart, whatever.
People are forced into a position where they can either work in something that drains them and isn’t necessary to be done by humans because it can be automated, or starve, be neglected and an outcast of the society.
There’s studies and TED talks showing how social stratification (inequality) has a direct influence on the health of the lower classes. That in all measures of health, the greater the social stratification, the more violence, disease, dissatisfaction, crime etc etc etc within that that society.
You’re creating a strawman of the issue and then attacking it to reassure yourself that everything you do is fine, and your values are fine. You’re sick and need to change.
And they aren’t. If you state people who work at Wal-Mart or McDonald’s are being treated like slaves, you’re simply being disrespectful toward slaves.
To make it clear, [i]there are actually slaves in this world.[/i] We could find somebody who spent some time in the sex-slave rings of Asia, or press-ganged child soldiers in Africa, or some other instances we don't need to go into. We could bring them before you, and have you ask them "Do you think people living in America who work for minimum wage are slaves?" What do you think they will say? Could you even ask them the question without feeling ashamed of yourself?
But on that logic, a 'wrong' is nothing more than whatever you say it is for some political end. No matter how good the poor are doing, no matter how much they have or how well they thrive, as long as somebody out there has to scrub a toilet or somebody out there has more money than somebody else, you get to cry about injustice because you've declared that degree doesn't matter, it's the principle of the thing. No. Bullshit. The justification for economic leveling can only be 1.) The poor are suffering or 2.) You object to/hate rich people on principle. You are free to have position 2 if you want, but we both know you can't sell it- the left has to pretend 1 is true in order to sell their agenda. I'm just pointing out that it's a crock.
Besides, 'tolerable' is a term specifically related to matters of degree. Yes, a lesser wrong is more tolerable than a greater wrong- that's what it means for something to BE TOLERABLE- it sucks, but you can deal with it. If no wrong of any degree is tolerable to you, and what you see as right and wrong is a function of your ideology, what does that say about you? It said you're an absolutist that needs to have every aspect of society conform to your will in every way, and nothing less than absolute conformity can be put up with. Does that sound far fetched? Well, look at how you treat people you disagree with in this thread.
That’s what you think I said because you apparently have a knee-jerk reaction to everything that isn’t socialism. Bummer. But that you have to equate the plight of the American poor person who only has 1 car and 3 internet connectivity devices to a beaten spouse in order to give the impression that you have a point sort of makes my point for me. What you’re saying doesn’t stand on the basis of reality. It only stands on a grandiose distortion of reality exaggerated to rile up emotion. I mean, in order to even interact with what I’m saying, you have to call me a stupid fucking crazy person, and portray me as swearing at and taunting an abused wife. All your credibility goes down the drain, you don’t seem to have the ability to see things as they are.
I don’t trust your opinion of what ‘racism’ is, or what ‘abuse’ is, and you just called me a fucking idiot because I expressed a mainstream political opinion that you disagree with. What’s more, you all of the sudden made the issue about your father, so if I say anything you don’t like, you can craftily accuse me of insulting your family. So what am I to do? Seriously- you think that working at Wal Mart equates to slavery. Because you chose to use that language, you have painted yourself in a corner. Who the fuck knows what you mean by ‘abused’, given what you mean by ‘slavery’?
You’re calling people ‘sick’ and ‘idiots’ because they disagree with you about a political matter. You’re calling people ‘slaves’ because they have a job that pays them somewhat less than you think it should pay them. Someday you’re going to have to take ownership for how perplexing and infuriating the world is to you.
You have no will to even consider if Peter’s position has any integrity. You came in here to shoot him down due to your own insecurities and that disgusts me.
You say we’re just cry babies who can’t make anything of ourselves, as though people in power actually did anything of integrity to earn their advantage.
I can’t tolerate having any discussion with you, and it’s so ironic that you’re a moderator of all things. Your approach in this thread in the epitome of immoderate.
But rest assured, I’m never going to exchange communication with you again.
Enjoy your life of being an ignorant fuck.
EDIT:
For good measure.
Slave - One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence - a person who works very hard without proper remuneration or appreciation - a person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something - A machine or component controlled by another machine or component.
I repeat, you are ignorant. You have no comprehension of what I’m saying.
Ucc, why is is that the convo starts off talking about how Americans are treating other Americans, and you keep running off to Africa and Asia to bring up these people who aren’t even a party to our society? I can imagine Mitt Romney and David Koch laughing and saying, “You think you’re 7.25 an hour w/ no overtime is bad? You wanna complain? Just wait until we get rid of this Obama and we’ll show you something to complain about by making your options in life as bad as those a Thai hooker might face.”
I mean, there’s an obvious binary thing going on here, and one side if their view is taken to the extreme results in some rich people and a lot of poor people. The other side, taken to the extreme would result in no poor people but probably no rich people either. If you value humanity and think that each person’s life is worth something by virtue of being a life, then well…you know where I’m going with this.
