the government has a marketing department?

i can understand why a private enterprise has to come up with indirect, misleading, uninformative marketing techniques to get their products to sell. they have to pay a lot of money to put those advertisements out, they need to be as effective as possible, and its apparently really difficult to write laws preventing the kind of ambiguity, double speak, and subconscious cultural manipulation that take the place of useful product information (or its really easy to bribe all of the people who first made those laws? or we are supposed to be ok with uninformative, misleading advertisements for some capitalist reason?).

anyway, whatever, let those jerks be less than completely honest, they do it all the time in much worse ways.

but not the government. that thing is important. and the most important part of a government ruled indirectly by the voters is the information that reaches the voters. how can we expect people to go research the voting records of their congresspeople, or analyze the specific causes of the failures in iraq? we cant expect them to do that because a lot of them live on farms or dont yet know how to use the interweb. and on top of that they are lazy fucks.

they are, however, presented with a lot of information, and maybe 1% of it is facts that you can blindly believe when watching the biased tv ad.

what if we were talking about american idol, the tv show. and instead of singing for the judges, each singer explained exactly what their favorite parts of their own singing were, and what was wrong with their opponents. and the judges decided based solely on each contestants biased information.

wouldnt you think that was the stupidest thing youve ever seen in your life? obviously. american idol has higher standards than the most important group of people in the world. doesnt that just make you want to blow yourself up for allah?

dont you want to smash your tv everytime you see that stupid fat jerk talk about how crappy kerry was in vietnam without saying why he thinks that and without mentioning that bush didnt even go to war in vietnam at all?

how many political ads can be summed up by “The organization who paid for this ad, of which you know nothing, ambiguously feels either good or bad about policies of which you are only vaguely familiar. you should agree or else you are wrong”?

how can we even possibly consider allowing marketing to be utilized in election campaigns in lieu of naked objective facts? i mean marketing is literally described as making your facts sound better than they actually are. instead of simply saying “bush did stuff to prevent terrorism” you put a video clip of nasty looking wolves stalking you from the edge of the woods and subconsciously remind the viewers of just how scary terrorism really is.

shouldnt you be reminding viewers of how effective and comforting bush is? because those terrorists are just as scary if kerry is in charge, but its less scary to elect an incumbent, even if you dont have the slightest clue about his policies. as far as you know, he didnt totally ruin anything yet, and you dont know that kerry wont.

but you cant say that in an ad because thats retarded, its an irrational behavior that americans and probably anybody exhibit. electing the incumbent in times of war, it always happens because people are irrationally afraid of changing in mid battle. but you cant advertise directly about why it happens because its irrational. but you can subtly subconsciously play on that irrationality to make its effects bigger.

subtly and subconsciously play on the irrational feelings of trusting the incumbent. instead of saying “bush’s policies in iraq will be more succesfull than kerrys because -facts-” those people pay hundreds of millions of dollars to say “heee’s the incumbennnnnt… you muuuust re-elect the innnnncummmmbennnnnnt. you can trust bush. look at him smile. happy bush. strong, confident, stay the course, never waver, must have resolve, never admitting mistakes is a gooood thinnnng, not a bad thing. mission accomplished.”

why cant it be actual objective information? why is that so hard? is it really too hard to do? or is there some secret selfish benefit that the secret rulers of our country gain by being less than completely honest in the election campaigns? well its not that hard, i can think up a better, more accurate election campaign information system in about five minutes. so can you. so can any idiot.

it would be cheaper than the current practice of spending more money than has ever been spent on an election every time theres another one (we are up to about $250 million per candidate). and it would give our citizens the freedom to chose accurately. it would motivate pissed off anti-voters like me to give a shit. why dont they have accurate election advertisements with no spin? why doesnt anybody notice or care besides me?

im not joking when i say that its seriously, obviously a conspiracy. SIEG HEIL!

Without government spin doctors and press secretaries and so on there would be literally no faith whatsoever in government and (though I’m not certain of this) law and order would probably collapse. Mass media in general is far too suspicious and cynical for any government to survive more than a few months unless that government plays the game.

This may be a sad state of affairs but it isn’t just to blame it all on governments. I’m not accusing you of doing this, merely making the point.

It would seem to me that this argument does more to justify a totalitarian state than explain the need for spin. If a government can only function by fooling its citizens, why even bother with elections? The only decent argument for Democracy that I have encountered assumes the population of voters as being rational and making well informed choices. If you have to fool them so as to allow the government to function, something is inherently flawed within the system, or the people that help support it.

Perhaps… I’m no totalitarian. An elitist, conceivably, but not a totalitarian.

It is because we have elections that the government can only function (well, can only retain public faith in its functioning) by duping people. Otherwise the lack of consensus that liberal democracy entails would be too divisive.

People aren’t rational and well informed, on the whole. And even if they were there’s no guarantee that they’d be any more likely to reach a position of consensus.

Democracy is an inherently flawed system, as are all political systems. Personally I think that we’ll see the collapse or at least a major subversion of democracy in western countries by the middle of this century.

what evidence is there of this? what country did these fair and informed elections take place in that resulted in the irreconciliable division between the few rich and many poor? what if, in america, instead of poor shmucks being duped by obviously evil and exploitative republicans, both sides are properly informed about the good side and bad side of supply side vs demand side economics and whatever other extremely divisive issues there are.

does america know jack shit about supply side economics? or do they just know they dont want our god damn charity or our ‘manhattan liberal’, god hating, fag loving ideology? what if america’s asshole politicians didnt actively try to divide our country, do you have any clue what that would look like and if so, whats the example you are referring to?

edited

Pre-democracy people were a lot more fatalistic and settled in their position in society. Consensus, of the sort only attainable through institutionalised oppression, existed. Consensus doesn’t exist now…

Strawman, not what I said…

I don’t see this as being a realm solely populated by republicans…

There are more than 2 sides…

Who defines ‘properly informed’ - you? Well, then you run the risk of the information dictatorship, propaganda, the Orwellian state. And please, no-one come back and tell me that the present US is an Orwellian state because that’s just arrogant, patronising and almost wholly incorrect.

That you are solely concerned with America makes a dialogue impossible. That you resort to exclamations all the time makes reading your comments tiring…

dude put some effort into this. your one liners would be tiring if they werent so short.

what evidence is there of this? who are you talking about? im talking about america because its the one i know and the one thats important in world affairs. you must be referring to someone else right? who what when did democracy fail?? when did it exist? ancient greece?

i interpreted this statement as saying that if people had a democracy that was perfect, candidates who represented the poor and rich and full information provided to all voters, it would still fail because rich and poor will never agree. you could replace rich and poor with non-religious vs stupid or isolationists vs terrorists. the disagreements between these groups can never be reconciled and therefore democracy will fail unless we shadily trick a bunch of people from one side into defecting onto the other.

right? the disagreements are fundamental and can never be healed by providing full information? thats why it will fail? i was alluding to the fact that there are more poor people than rich so if they disagree, fuck the rich.

by the way, mass media in general is far too evil and manipulative. they are 100% controlled by corporations who skew and lie. the people who own the democratic party and the supposedly left wing media are not at all left wing, they are quite right wing. and yet they own the people who are supposed to represent the left but almost always do not. if you tell me that there is a left wing conspiracy in the media, im afraid ill be too upset to laugh at you.

oh wait a minute i think i totally misinterpreted what you wrote. you are saying that all governments are so crappy, and/or all people are so bitchy that there is no possible way that any government can exist in its crappiness without all the people hating it and resenting the fact that they are paying for it? and if people are ever given a free choice, they will choose to build interstate highways, a military, a space program, and various altruistic subsidies on their own or not at all? and thats the way it should be (or at least what the voters will undoubtedly believe it should be)?

i dont buy it for a second. if the rulers are truly held fully accountable for everything they do due to the amazing possibilities of modern information technology, then the only things that they will do are the things that the people want.

the correct decision is virtually always obvious when all of the information is presented. religion only exists because of magical information that isnt held to the same standards. but absolutely everything besides that can be either agreed on unanimously, or disagreed with on the basis of unfair selfishness. if people are voting on whether something should be done in the US that will selfishly hurt a smaller percentage than will be hurt, then some jerks will vote selfishly and then they will lose like they should. thats the way its supposed to be. anything that isnt that should be immediately destroyed.

siatd when you say you arent a totalitarian but conceivably an elitist, it seems as though you might be considering that the average person is much stupider than he really is. the average person probably is even more ignorant than you think he is, but thats not because hes stupid. its because there is no information being sent to them other than the awful stupidity provided by our government and its owners.

what the heck. a person like me cant suggest an objective measure of true, unbiased information, but the US is currently so free and full of unbiased, true information that it would be arrogant, patronising and almost wholly incorrect to call america an orwellian state?

do you know what political advertisements would look like if i had enough bombs to blow up washington and take control? they would be a chart of decisions that the candidates made, with comparable decisions lined up next to eachother (bob joe votes pro hating fags, joe bob votes anti hating fags). piece of cake. it took me five seconds to think of a better way to have campaign advertisements.

do you know what political speeches would sound like? they would have information in them. i mean like facts and opinions. not “we continue to fight terrorism. we are doing what needs to be done. the war will be tough, but we have the resolve to do it.” fucking white house press secretary joe mclellan!! no stonewalling allowed in my country, politicians would be encouraged to tell the truth and answer questions.

which is more orwellian? the obvious way democracy should be, or america? sure it would be stupid to say that america is exactly like 1984, but to say that there is a free discussion about our government and their decisions and the outcomes and that our questions are always satisfactorily answered in a public way, that would be much more stupid.

what are you talking about? i was using them as an example just like i used the rich vs poor split as an example. the fact that democrats exploit them almost as much is clear evidence of the awful effects of american tyranny on its own populaton.

Future Man,

Once again your exclamations are making discussion hard…

Just because you cannot understand them (something you’ve manifestly demonstrated) doesn’t mean that they are tiring. You might find them tiring…

The fact that in the last presidential election the US public could barely choose between two candidates that to most external observers were essentially very similar…

Your free associating of questions is a boring technique. Calm down or I won’t bother to respond any more. America is not ‘the one that is important in world affairs’. Your one-dimensional view is laughable…

I never mentioned the rich and poor - you stuck this arbitrary division on the end of what I said and objected to your own supplement. A classic strawman.

No, the nature of a political system whereby people vote individually rather than collectively demands in itself the lack of consensus, I’m not talking about irreconcilable differences…

No doubt you, sitting in comfort eating cheetos and arguing with someone on the other side of the Atlantic, consider yourself one of the poor…

When you are hiding from a storm in a cave, huddling round some damp wood trying to set it on fire, starving because you’ve not eaten for 2 days and weak with sickness that is incurable because your country has no medical science then I’ll worry about you. Until then your hatred of the ‘rich’ is just hypocritical arrogance.

You tell me this as though I don’t already know…

No, they aren’t. Read my comments on the propaganda thread…

No doubt you, just like every other faction of every other wing in every other political discourse, claims that you, of course, are ‘truly’ left wing…

There’s a liberal bias, but liberal doesn’t mean left wing…

Nope, you simply misinterpreted it again. I am not saying that people are inherently selfish, but that liberal democracy makes them such…

No doubt you and only those who agree with you are ‘the people’, rather than the leftwing (rightwing) democrats and the leftwing (rightwing) media and of course the rich, and anyone else who you define as ‘other than me’…

There is no ‘the people’, there is no general will…

In your tongue - What evidence do you have for this???

Next you’ll be telling me that science and reason don’t involve the exact same time of faith as religion (by which you mean, of course, institutional Christianity)…

Fascist!

Really, you are closer to being a leftwing fundamentalist that a democrat…

The information is out there to be found. People are ignorant because they are stupid, because they have no desire to find this out. It’s so easy to blame the government or media organs for their selective reporting but the fact is that lazy minded, stupid people buy these things and subscribe to what they say. I blame the people…

You can suggest it, it’s just arrogant and patronising to allege that the US is anything even close to the police state mentioned in Orwell. Why? Because you have the right to say that. If the US were Orwellian then you wouldn’t have the right to say it.

Game over. Don’t argue on this unless you can find a flaw in my reasoning, I’ll disregard all other comments.

Wow. Start a political party and get elected. You’re obviously so talented and obviously ‘the people’ agree with you so I’m sure that you’ll be very successful…

Like facts and opinions? So not facts and opinions, just ‘like facts and opinions’. You can’t even write a sentence without using ‘like’ as a rhetorical prop, you’d be an awful political speechwriter…

I thought that they’d have to say, you know, stuff, ‘like facts and opinions’…

You mean that ‘obvious’ way where you ‘destroy’ anyone who doesn’t agree? You mean that version that sounds an awful lot like the speeches you deride?

No offence, but this is tosh.

Go to a real police state and then tell me that the US is Orwellian. Or try actually reading Orwell…

For the people, on the people, by the people. Sounds pretty democratic to me…

Are you sure they are duping people? Isn’t it conceivable that the people know that political parties will deviate from their manifesto?

Personally, I don’t think that people care too much for the finer details of politics.

I think generally it does, and where it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter.

Unless I’m misinterpreting ‘stupid’ and ‘lazy’ I can’t agree. People choose not to dig too deeply because they are content with the way things are: they have a roof over their heads, a car on the driveway, a foreign holiday once a year… Why rock the boat?

Would someone really have to be this destitute for you to consider that the difference between rich and poor is unacceptable?

Now, you can’t honestly mean this.

My step-son can tell me I’m unfair and mean and controlling all he likes. Just because I let him say these things doesn’t mean I’m not (by the way, that’s an just example. I’m none of those things :^o …well, not all the time anyway)

Similarly, the fact that I can stand on a street corner and say that Blair is running a police state means neither that he is or he isn’t. Control comes in many guises.

Dear Delboy,

Not until said political parties have deviated from said manifestos, no

Nor do I. But nonetheless they cause political arguments in the name of ‘free will’ that needn’t exist at all…

Consider my example regarding the US presidential election. Hell, if we in the UK had proportional representation then we’d presently have a hung parliament…

We can’t even make our minds up as to whether we should be able to smack our own children or lop off the dogs tail, let alone whether or not we should have the Euro or something that was institionally political…

Widespread apathy and political consensus aren’t the same thing, no matter how much they might lead to the same consequences.

Because in taking that holiday one automatically engages with a dynamic which fucks more people over than it serves well. But of course, as you rightly note, people couldn’t give a toss…

By ‘stupid’ I don’t just mean ‘lacking intellectual skill’ I also mean ‘lacking intellectual determination’. Some people may not be particularly bright but strive to become smarter. I’d call these people smarter (less stupid) than someone who is bright but treats their intelligence in an apathetic fashion…

No, of course not. I was simply alluding to the fact that even the poorest in America have more, certainly more potentially, that the genuinely poor in the world and for Americans (people of the richest nation on earth) to complain about being poor seems to me to be grossly hypocritical. This isn’t to say that I don’t have a lot of problems with the existence of the super rich…

This is a specious analogy. You could be unfair and mean and controlling and he’d still be able to say that. If the UK or the US truly was a police state one wouldn’t be able to say that (certainly not on a privately owned and run but publically accessible internet forum). Do you see the flaw in your logic?

If you can stand there and say that without being bundled into the back of a van and taken to a centre for ‘reconditioning’ then I think that it’s safe to say we have sufficient freedom of speech that we do not live in a police state. It may not be ideal, but it isn’t Orwellian. I’ve read Orwell extensively, most people just read animal farm and the first 100 pages of 1984 (i.e. before it really gets going as a story) and make their minds up from that. Of course I’m willing to accept that once a word has been used a given number of times in a certain way that it starts to take on that meaning by virtue of the use-meaning ‘loop’. On the other hand I put this to you - given the choice would you rather use ‘Orwellian’ in the sense that the Socialist Worker uses it, to try to make themselves sound more well read and credible, or in the sense that I use it, to refer solely to the works of Orwell and things directly resembling them. To call the present US or UK ‘Orwellian’ is like calling EVERY lighthouse with a bunch of trees next to it ‘Turneresque’…

When a political party goes on its campaign trail and releases its manifesto we pick up a general theme to their policies. We will also look at the personalities and decide whether we could see these people running our country. But I don’t think we are fooled for a minute about all of the promises.

At the last election something like a quarter of the population voted for Labour, and yet the day after everybody continued to go to work, school, shopping or whatever rather than protesting in the streets that the government had got in despite how few had voted for them. This was not because of apathy, but because it didn’t really matter. And the reason it didn’t really matter was not because of a lack of will by the people, but because whoever got voted in would address the core concerns of the population.

And this is what I mean by a consensus generally existing and where it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. You can declare war on Iraq and we will voice our protest, even go as far as marching in the streets, but as long as we have jobs to go to, schools for our kids, hospitals for our sick parents, transport to get around and prisons for the nasty criminals we are happy. It’s not that we don’t care, it’s just that we care more about ourselves and our family. This might be selfish, but it isn’t apathy.

No. It’s about the confidence in the control. If people are wilfully acting in the manner the state wants then there is no need for overt oppression. And if I were to stand on a street corner shouting “we’re all living in a police state” and everyone that walked past said to me “if you were living in a police state you wouldn’t be allowed to say that”, it would be counter-productive for me to be taken away in a black van, demonstrating that we are in fact living in a police state. It’s only those that pose a real threat to the continued existence of the state that would face reconditioning.

Anyway, I was not arguing whether or not we live in a police state, only that you could find a better argument to prove that we don’t.

And there’s the rub - if each person is doing similar somethings for selfish reasons then it’s ludicrous to call this ‘consensus’ because they haven’t come to a consensus, they’re just too fearful about losing what they have…

Listen, this is nice and clear. You have the right to dissent. This does not exist in a police state, ergo you do not live in a police state. Nothing to do with confidence, nothing to do with ‘quiet’ forms of oppression. There is no Ministry of Truth, there is no big black van…

But there’s no bloody reconditioning going on! You keep talking hypothetically, about what Britain might be like if it were a police state when I’ve given a perfectly sound argument that proves that it isn’t.

How can there be a better argument than one that is true by definition? Every time someone says that they live in a police state and suffer no ill consequence they are lying or mistaken because if they did then they would suffer ill consequences.

Please, equivocate further if you believe that you can persuade me otherwise…

LOL, our politicians and their followers have been doing this since the beginning. This has been in the form of total mendacity, “Andrew Jackson is a mass murderer” then there were the huge barrels of whiskey provided to voters at the election sites. The game has always been afoot in any election. Geez, knowing a bit of history really makes one laugh and sigh, human nature never seems to change. Canterbury Tales comes to mind at the moment. Hey, anyone for a modern remake of this tale in the modern world. Hollyweird is ripe with actresses to play the Wife of Bath, hum who to play the othe parts. Fun thoughts. The Miller could be … Just ideas.

From a different angle you might argue that it is just that compassion lessens as it moves away from the centre.

But however you look at it, they are principles that the people of Britain agree on.

What is the intention of a police state?

No, there are behavioural norms which they collectively manifest, there’s a difference. Agreeing on principles would involve an informed dialogue, most British people can’t get through a sentence without using ‘like’ and ‘but’ instead of punctuation and starting bits of new sentences because they can’t separate premises in an argument.

To maintain strict levels of law and order and to stamp out dissent and other seditious practices, I’d imagine. I’m not sure that there’s ‘an intention’…

Yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah but…we really, like, love our NHS, or whatever.

The principle behind the NHS is very simple: we all contribute to its cost through taxes and the service is free to all at the point of use. We all know this and we all want to keep it. Consensus.

Yes, I too would imagine that it was to ensure the continuance of an ideology or system through force or oppression. The point is, is that if you are not threatening this ideology or system through your actions or behaviour and the people around you aren’t threatening this ideology or system, why would you see evidence of this force or oppression?

I wonder how ‘1984’ would have read if it had been told through the life of a compliant citizen who had compliant friends.

Right, so that’s why approaching a quarter of the voting population cast their papers for the Tories, whose manifesto included a much publicised policy of giving patients on NHS waiting lists who decided to go private for their treatment up to a third of the costs of that treatment, taking the money out of NHS budget…

Of course they’ve now dropped this policy under David Cameron (even though he wrote the manifesto) but don’t pretend that the existence of and considerable use of private medicine doesn’t invalidate your claims of consensus regarding the NHS.

Let’s see, the BBC said that the dossier on Iraq’s weapons was sexed up. Every news media organ in the country took up the story. The net result? Greg Dyke has gone back to football directorship and Andrew Gilligan lost his job. Yeah, real police state.

What else? Jon Snow suggested to the PM that such was the determination to find weapons in Iraq (post invasion) that something would be ‘codded up’. He seems to still have his job and still seems to be criticising the government on a daily basis…

Yeah, real police state. Need I go on?

The NHS is still funded out of general taxation and is still free at the point of use and is still loved by everyone. The only thing you have pointed out is that some people receive a portion of their health care through subsidised private providers.

So, they dealt with the dissent quickly and quietly, so no need for more serious repercussions. And what effect has Jon Snow’s accusations and allegations had on the government. None, except reinforcing the naïve belief that we can’t possibly live in a police state because we can say this is a police state.

What you need to pay attention to are those people that go missing in the dead of night, never to be seen again and no-one to tell their story…

…remember, they’re watching!

Dear Delboy,

i.e you missed the point entirely…

I also pointed out that people are willing to vote for a party whose manifesto included a well known policy of taking money out of the NHS (hardly loving) to pay for private medical treatment…

Try to understand the argument before you reply…

Quickly and quietly? What are you talking about!? 3 public enquiries and 18 months of press speculation? That’s ‘quickly and quietly’ dealing with something?

Are you even familiar with the events that I’m talking about or are you just making this up on the spot?

Given that you haven’t found a single flaw with my argument or presented a counterargument that has any weight I’ll ask you to refrain from calling my argument’s conclusion a ‘naive belief’. Do you remember that we had an election last year? Do you remember the result? Try straining your faculties to consider the question of why Labour’s majority was hit so hard despite the obvious failings of the alternatives. You have a little think about that. If you still don’t see the point then there’s not much point continuing this discussion because my argument remains intact. You might not like it because you want to believe something else. I’ve cited examples and knocked down your attempts at refutation. Your serve…

What you need to pay attention to are those people that go missing in the dead of night, never to be seen again and no-one to tell their story…

…remember, they’re watching!
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