The Holy Spirit.

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

Seems in ever corner, there is a way to explain away something supernatural, naturally.

But of faith of the holy spirit, of those that believe. God will eventually give up on trying to move you to him. I have lost my faith, and somehow got it back somewhat… however even though I’d like to fully believe again and hand my life back to God, and believe I very well could. I still feel apathetic from foot to head to do so. In fact while some Christians see it as gaining control I feel it’s losing control of my life.

Christian explaination or secular one, thoughts of any are welcome. I’m too tired tonight to try to unravel it myself, if I could perhaps.

2

I don’t really know what you’re asking. I will say, though, that waiting for, and judging based on religious feelings isn’t very reliable.

3

Look at God as the vehicle and you the passenger. You have the steering wheel, not God. God just assists you getting to where you need to be. You have full control, not God. God just makes back seat driving suggestions if anything. does that help?

4

Pretty much, yes – which means that when ‘supernatural’ is given as an answer to a question about the universe it is either an empty concept or a synonym for ‘I don’t know the answer to that just yet.’

5

God does not make his presence known through a choir of angels running down the street proclaiming his existence. It is not the extreme that we find God, it is the everyday:

“God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is His megaphone to rouse a deaf world.” - C.S. Lewis

While we can give everything a scientific explination we cannot give everything a scientific proof. We can explain everything away to naturalism, but we cannot prove it away: for only in faith do we find God, not proof.

Instead of waiting for God to come to you try and go to God. As long as you are willing, God is there.

6

Therein lies my problem. I want to go to God, but how do I know it’s “God” and not something with my mind that happens when I believe in something so strongly I feel it comforts me? Because even if I do get back to believing in God, I’ll think to myself, what if it’s just my mind playing not tricks, but its’ regular role. The only reason I still feel God exists is that I trust other people, even though what they’ve seen may be mass halucenation, or made up for their own belief. I’ve listened to so many stories.

I once thought I felt a demonic presence once, because my friends and I were talking about spiritual things. How do we not know it being dark, our subconscious minds brought about a feeling of demonic presences? Because we all felt it we told each other, but was that natural? Other stories of my cousin and his friend waking up in the middle of the night seeing the friends mom and talking to her, however she was in another country they found out the next morning. Peoples intution? So many things seem supernatural, that could be ‘natural’ just unkown, and knowing that presents a problem for me.

I’m sure when I decide to make the choice to fully believe in God, I’ll be back on here discussing how much he changed my life, how I can’t believe so many of you don’t believe in God, etc. But maybe, just maybe, this reason is the reason why alot of people who go from christian to atheist or agnostic never return… or am I wrong?

7

No, I am sure there is a lot of truth to it. People, it seems, have become a little more adamant about certainty and thus anything that is suspect must be tossed out. Few would argue that there is truly insufficient evidence to disprove this idea of God, but for most people who do not take the idea to heart it is the skepticism which is the issue. Not “God isn’t real” but “what if God isn’t real”.

It is the paradox where your physical senses and your religious experience come into conflict with eachother. One can be indepentantly asured, the other can only be subjectivly confirmed. Where do we put our trust? The answer is literally in faith. One cannot prove that God is real from observation or argumentation, only through introspection. When you put your faith in reason Gos isn’t there, when you put your faith in yourself and keep an open mind then God can be found.

I will not assert that religion might not be a collective delusion, but that isn’t what I (or I think any religious person) believes. While you can find support in other people the quest to God is necessarily an independant one. There is a certain element of suspending your reason, which unfortunatly a lot of people cannot reconcile.

A lot of what was attributed to God was merely misunderstood and I think this caused a lot of problems. What once was a miracle is now an explainable event; so are miracles bunk or do we just need a change in perspective about them? The confusion, I think, rests on the fact that many people are still arguing forand against a conception of God that is no longer believable… but the idea of God still remains true. It is when you can find YOUR conception of God that everything comes together; disbelief will be suspended not in affront to reason but beside it.

8

So if I will the flying spaghetti monster, He will be there? Great! Now, what shall I will?..

Rather, as long as you are willing, there is a well-organised group of people with a fairly comprehensive answer to everything you need to know about your existence, right through from the creator and sustainer of it all down to how you should feel about abortion, euthanasia and sex before marriage! All you have to do is follow it wholeheartedly. (I.e. surrender mental autonomy.)

But I´d implore Club29 to remember that this Christianity lark may not necessarily be true! Scary consequences should you ignore it, yes. But in all liklihood, it ain´t gonna happen is it? Come on like. Be bold.

However you reach your metaphsical and ethical answers, just make sure they´re your own, and not rammed into your brain by fear, social pressure, violence, ignorance or any other callous mechanism used by “those who know it “”“all””“”.

9

I disagree with this comment. God parted the Red sea. God changed water into wine. God raised the dead. These are extreme events in anybody’s book, and are central to the faith of people in the OT and NT, and still are today. To discount the possibility that God can reveal himself today in exactly the same way if he choses to seems to me a gross misunderstanding of scripture.

Club said…

The truth is that you’ll never know for sure. But don’t listen to those that would simply explain away your experience.

Back to Blue Chicken…

Again I take issue with this idea that God cannot be experienced except by internal rumbling, although I agree that some degree of introspection is useful. But if the God of the universe actually exists, he should be well able to communicate to us externally. No?

Once again I don’t like this idea at all. I do not believe in a God who does nothing except give us a warm glow inside. And I fail to understand how a concept of a God like this is appealing.

The God I worship is just as capable today as he was 2000 years ago when he rose from the dead, healed the sick, and walked on water. If you remove these aspects from your faith then I think you have gutted the core out of Christianity. Who really wants to worship a God who is weak and powerless to change our hearts, our lives, and the circumstances of our world?

10

Good points. I definitely agree. I think I lost my faith because I was so caught up in proving God, It collided with the fact we still need faith. I don’t think I wanted to tell people that, I wanted to believe I could prove him, and when I felt I couldn’t anymore and had the slightest doubts I fell away from him.

11

Nietzsche actually suggested once or twice that ‘the holy spirit’ was a valid concept. However, for him it meant something dionysian.

12

Club,

You’ve read enough of my posts to know that I’m an agnostic spiritually, and a healthy skeptic of anything religious. This didn’t just happen, it was many years of study and introspection. Let me toss out a perspective that you may find useful. It is a statement of faith.

I have no belief in any God presented in religious terms. They are man-created idols used by men for all sorts of purposes, many of which are malignant. But there is that ‘something’ of which I am aware, but do not know. It isn’t an understanding or a knowing of, it is a sensing. I prefer to call it the mystery.

I have faith that for whatever reason, I am here and not somewhere else, and there is no explanation of that. I have all of the capacity and potential necessary to be as good or as evil as I choose. So does every other human, including you. Do that which is benign, avoid that which is malignant and you fulfill the potential you have.

If there is a creator (as entity) what more could be asked? There is no need to ask for anything from any God. You have all the heart and mind you will ever have. It is how you choose to use it. Judgement does not wait for a Second Coming, or the Rapture, but is presented to us every day.

The common error is that in our awareness of the mystery, we must know what it is. We ask the mystery, “God, who are you and what do you want?” Is it not enough to have awareness and all the tools we need to complete our days? When I accepted that, the search for ‘God’ ended, but not my reverence or awe of all that is the mystery.

Is this too simple? Perhaps. But it just might be that it is supposed to be simple…

13

[quote=“tentative”]
Club,

You’ve read enough of my posts to know that I’m an agnostic spiritually, and a healthy skeptic of anything religious. This didn’t just happen, it was many years of study and introspection. Let me toss out a perspective that you may find useful. It is a statement of faith.

I have no belief in any God presented in religious terms. They are man-created idols used by men for all sorts of purposes, many of which are malignant. But there is that ‘something’ of which I am aware, but do not know. It isn’t an understanding or a knowing of, it is a sensing. I prefer to call it the mystery.

I have faith that for whatever reason, I am here and not somewhere else, and there is no explanation of that. I have all of the capacity and potential necessary to be as good or as evil as I choose. So does every other human, including you. Do that which is benign, avoid that which is malignant and you fulfill the potential you have.

If there is a creator (as entity) what more could be asked? There is no need to ask for anything from any God. You have all the heart and mind you will ever have. It is how you choose to use it. Judgement does not wait for a Second Coming, or the Rapture, but is presented to us every day.

The common error is that in our awareness of the mystery, we must know what it is. We ask the mystery, “God, who are you and what do you want?” Is it not enough to have awareness and all the tools we need to complete our days? When I accepted that, the search for ‘God’ ended, but not my reverence or awe of all that is the mystery.

Is this too simple? Perhaps. But it just might be that it is supposed to be simple…[/quote

It is simple, but unorthodox? I’ve always fear i’ve done it wrong, because I’m a perfectionist. And, sometimes just wanting to believe God doesn’t exist made me more at peace. I’d hate to spend a life thinking my belief was correct, or good enough, or that I understood. Only to find I missed. How much of the bible am I supposed to take credible? How much not? If some is open to questioning… why not all? And if we eliminate the bible, what do we have in this mystery? How is someone supposed to know it’s not satan whom they please. I’ve felt all my life my choices have to go for the glory of God, or they are selfish and sinful. But to be honest, when I live my life for the glory of God I only become bitter toward those who don’t.

The simplicity in taking this sense, and using the tools this mystery gave us to better our lifes in live a fulfilled life, sounds great. However, is that the path to heaven? Or do you not believe in a hell? I’ve always been taught salvation through faith is the only way… and selfishly everyone wants to get saved and live however they want, especially protestants like myself and I suppose many catholics do as well. So does orthodoxy Go out the window? Is this what you belief? Because at this point I only become more confused, and I’d live more fearful under your tenet.

14

Hi Club,

When I think of, and use the term mystery, there is no orthodoxy. It ceases to be a question. Is there a heaven or hell? There is no answer once one steps outside religion. Mystery in the sense I use the term means just that. Mystery. Not only do I not know, but unless I’ve missed some important news flash, no one else does either. We live, and then we die. After all the myriad and beautiful (as well as horrific) explanations are done, no one has ever reported back on an afterlife. These things are conceptual constructs that have never been confirmed in any way but hopeful guessing.

What we have is what we have, and not knowing is part of that. It doesn’t remove our awareness of the mystery, but it frees us from spending our lives looking for certainty, that closed system where our “fire insurance” is guaranteed.

I realize that it feels like stepping off into nothingness, but it is the exact opposite. It is releasing the fear of gods and devils that is somethingness and accepting not knowing is the beginning of a wonderful journey. Instead of looking outwardly, we begin to look inwardly, and there one finds the measure of self and relationship with the ineffable.

Can we be right or wrong? Will we enjoy a heaven or suffer in a hell? Is there an afterlife? It all comes back to “I don’t know”, and we are left standing alone with ourselves. That is both our freedom and our responsibility as humans. What do you think Jesus of Nazareth was talking about? Not the letter of religious law, but the understanding and spirit of our humaness.

If you are a perfectionist, then the very first revelation should be that there is no such thing as perfect knowing. But we might be able to have understanding… This sounds counter-intuitive, but God is found just as soon as you let go of God.

15

And if you are one of those that God talks to externally and clearly then your relationship is not in need of any form of proof at all.

God has never spoken to me personally, so I have doubts as to the validity of this over a social scale. IF God does speak to you personally you have the one up of being convinced by external confirmation, but for most this isn’t applicable.

And more what I was aiming at (although it appears unclearly) is not that God can make God’s prescence known but that only the individual can interpret signs of this to lead them towards faith. However much you take from tradition and/or your community belief in God is a personal undertaking; while one can argue for objective proofs for the existence of God one can only have faith in God if they personally undertake the matter.

I hope that is a little clearer.

[/quote]

Do I argue for a God that is completely uninvolved in the world, unwilling to grant miracles in any situation? No. But I do think this view has been horribly abused in the past and needs a revamp.

Traditionally, a lot of the good that occured in human life (in devout cultures at least) were attributed to the supernatural. When one got over a cold, God did it. When the roast turned out extra tender, God did it. When the mail didn’t have a bill, God did it. The attribution of so much positive to God gave the idea that he controls every string (similar to a Berkelian worldview, but with material things). But I don’t think this is feasible: people get over illness, things can turn out well because we plan them to, and when we pay our bills we don’t get harassed about them. I do genuinly believe that God can and does interact with the world, and these would be considered miracles, but are not an every-second occurance. 5 people miraculously recover from terminal cancer: not all five are necessarily miracles, even if they all prayed really hard. Medical treatment may have made the difference, sometimes bodies can adapt quickly for known reason, perhaps it was an unexpected side effect of something completely unrelated: but it does not necessarily indicate a miracle.

I would never argue that God is powerless within the world, but I do accept that the world operates on it’s own accord. Miracles do happen, it is just that they are not every day.

16

I wouldn’t consider one “hearing” God when nobody else is around external confirmation. Now if a crowd of thousands heard God, I’d believe it’d be an interesting investigation to see if it could be explained through natural means.

Having faith often times means believing something for which there is no evidence, or something that is even contradictory to the evidence. I agree that it is only when one is truly convinced of something to be true, regardless of whether it is or not, does it become so in their subjective reality.

There was a story in Skeptics magazine regarding Arthur Conan Doyle and Houdini, who were friends. Despite Doyle authoring a very rational Sherlock Holmes character, he was actually a spiritualist, and believed in psychics and the like. Houdini was the exact opposite, viewing mediums as hoaxes. One winter, Houdini prepared a magic trick for Doyle, and after performing it, Doyle was absolutely convinced that Houdini had real magic powers. Houdini told Doyle it was just an illusion, and had no extraordinary powers. Doyle didn’t believe him.

What good is it to say miracles happen, but we can never known when something miraculous is because of divine intervention, and when it’s just plain coincidence?

It makes more sense to believe everything happens for a reason, that the tsunami was a punishment to Indonesia, that hurricane Katrina was punishment to New Orleans, that the pope miraculously survived a shooting (with no thanks given to the surgeons who worked on him for hours), than it does to say God only intervenes sometimes. This begs the question, “Why?” And really, the only answers that make sense are God is either not omnipotent, or he just doesn’t care sometimes.

And that’s just piling on more assumptions than I care to deal with.

17

You have to be worthy of God to feel His presence.

When you were innocent, babe-like, you were worthy - you believed without question. Then you learned about the ignorance of your fellow believers. You evolved to a higher plane of understanding, and your idea of God needed to be redefined in order to unquestioninghly believe in it again. Many have gone before you on this path, and their quests have often spanned their entire lives. For an awakened mind, the search for God is no longer just about asking and receiving, but about participating in the great work of Creation. It is in this process that the capable mind will gradually learn to understand that science and religion are not separate paths, but one and the same.

“I want to know God’s thoughts, the rest are details.” Albert Einstein

18

Can you give me a list of these worthy person’s?

When you were a babe you didn’t understand not to eat your own poop and the first words with knowledge that came out of your mouth were lies.

19

Purely in reference to the OP, I would ask “why not embrace the Christian Orthodoxy?” Now, you, me, and everybody else know that the Christian Orthodoxy is imperfect; however, everybody also recognizes that, as flawed human beings, the best we can expect is indeed imperfect.

I think that the recognition of our own fallibility is difficult for anyone, regardless of their leanings. Not the casual “Human beings are imperfect” anybody-and-everybody can admit that. Far more difficult is to look into a mirror and say, “I am imperfect” and not in the “I-need-to-lose-15-pounds”-sorta way. We need to transition beyond superficial criticisms of ourselves (which we are quite good at, as a general rule) and move towards genuine self-criticism (which we are, as a general rule, quite terrible at).

If you yearn to be a part of the Christian community, why reject it? I mean, my #1 philosophical bugaboo is anomie and I have always insisted that religion is the best means to overcome this. I’ve also lamented that I think Christianity is fundamentally flawed and unsatisfactory, but given the choice between Christianity and nothing, well, Christianity (despite its flaws) wins.