The human condition.....Part two

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

in working out the human condition, we must first
accept/understand that all is in flux… there is history within
the human condition… there is a road… from past to
present to the future…but like in linear time, there can be
no going back… I cannot revert to being a child, or in my
twenties or even in my fifties… the past what was…
the present is what is today… and the future is what will be or
what might be… but Kropotkin, this is rather obvious to me,
just because it is obvious doesn’t mean that it is clear
to all people…

It is hard to imagine that we live on a rock, a planet that
revolves, moving, and the planet is moving around the sun,
so, here you have two different types of movement… of
revolving and of moving around the sun… but we have
actually another movement… the sun itself moves and the planets
revolve around the sun all while moving… for the sun is moving
around the galaxy, revolving around the galaxy… and that the
galaxy itself is also moving as the earth moves, the sun moves,
the solar system moves, and the entire galaxy is moving along
with the entire universe as it moves… but from our place on earth,
can we tell that the entire universe is moving? Clearly not…
that we move on the planet earth at roughly 1000 miles an
hour… and the entire galaxy is moving around 490,000
per hour around the center of the galaxy… but for all of this
to make sense, we require some point of reference…
and a point of reference is simply context…
comparing and contrasting… the basic tools of
science and philosophy…

I have stated, time after time, that we human beings
are on a road… going from animal to becoming human…
that the road of human beings goes from being animal
to becoming human… and I have stated multiple times,
that being animal is holding onto superstitions, being
ignorant, being prejudiced, being inflexible/unchangeable…
am I calling people ‘‘subhuman’’ or less than human, not
at all…for the human body is still animal, no matter what
beliefs or values we hold to…we are all animals…
but that is not what I am talking about…

animals have instinct… programming that they cannot under
any circumstances, overcome… a dog is a dog is a dog…
it can do no other… that is animal… the inability to change
and adapt, to make choices is being human…
and by overcoming instinct, programming, we stand ever
closer to becoming human…which is not a physical state…
it is the state of changing…the question here is, what
does it mean to be human?

for me, to be human is to be free of superstitions, ignorance,
to promote reason over faith, to have autonomy, to have choices…
the path to this enlightenment is by the motto of Socrates,
the unexamined life isn’t worth living, two: to know thyself…
those two are not biological necessities… they are
epistemological in nature… the search to be human is a search
for knowledge… and the search for knowledge is the search
away from superstitions, ignorance, faith, unconsciousness,
prejudice, bigotry… I have called these traits as being animal…
which is to say, separate/apart from the pursuit of knowledge…
and none of which is biological in nature…

the fact is that human beings are a weird mix
of animal and human… of knowledge…
a man driven toward peace can also be a person
of faith… peace is a human trait… and yet, faith is
a animal trait… we can and do hold both human
and animal beliefs within us… I have called tribalism
a faith, a animal thing… and yet, some can believe in
tribalism and still hold to some aspects of being human,
of knowledge… we are not one or the other, but a mix
of both… faith can reside in the man of knowledge…
a Goethe can hold to superstitions… Gandhi can hold
to his faith in god and still be pursuing becoming human,
by his pursuit of what it means to be human…

Holding to this mix of ignorance and superstitions along
with the understanding of knowledge and following the
path to becoming human, are not mutually exclusive…
we can and are, a mix of ignorance and superstitions
and yet, we can still be pursuing the path toward being
human…

the key is the overcoming of the prejudice and ignorance/
superstitions of being human with knowledge and understanding
that being human is a path, a journey toward something…
whereas being ignorant, or superstitious, or prejudice, is
not a path to anywhere… this movement
is what it means to be human… lack of movement is animal…
for this movement toward a goal, a target is being human…
animals cannot create or establish a goal that takes them
beyond being animal…whereas the essential part of being
human is to move past ourselves… to push ourselves…
I have created my own goal of being the greatest philosopher
in the world today… whether I am or not, frankly isn’t
relevant… I have created a goal, a possibility for me to reach…
animals are unable to do that…that is what makes me
human… the ability to set goals is human… and I can
make the claim that I am further on the road to becoming
human by my goal… I am trying to accomplish something
that is just out of my reach… it is what drives me…
the seeking out of prejudice and bigotry and ignorance,
that is not seeking out a higher goal… a human goal…
and thus I reject it, and I call it being an animal…

the human condition is one where we move forward in
our understanding of the world and of ourselves…
we examine, both the world and ourselves, to seek
our knowledge and understanding in what it means to
be human…

Kropotkin

2

Of course, our biological status is one of growth and then decline, and it is not reversible. However, our mental, emotional and (dare I say) spiritual status is in flux. Humanity may have progressed from animal to homo sapiens sapiens, but our progression as individuals is that of maturation. Some people try to avoid this and dream of the bliss of a child or the excitement of teenagers and young adults.

Some have difficulty and become unstable, but most go along with their society, which gives them the norm. Going with the flow is the easiest way to cope, although it also has problems. Going against the flow can result in exclusion and, eventually, oppression. There are also those who, through their engagement with society, become neurotic because they discover that society is sick. Erich Fromm called it a “healthy neuroticism.”

I don’t think that the motion of the planet through the universe has such an effect on the human condition

Reducing it to being animals doesn’t grasp the problem. We are biological entities with a sentient mind, which gives us the feeling of duality. We have biological needs as much as we have psychological needs.

Even among the most intelligent and sympathetic people, I have yet to meet someone who is free of everything you mention here. The Delphic maxims do indeed give us direction, but it is a path that must be trodden, and we can only judge our own progress unless we engage with others and ask how their path has been. Then we can gain insight into the diversity of problems that people have in being the person they want to be.

Faith is not an animal trait. Trusting a certain narrative and devoting oneself to expressed principles is not something an animal can do. Tribalism may reflect a herd instinct, but it is more than proximity and safety in numbers. It also involves adopting norms of behaviour, rituals, and modes of communication. Goethe and Gandhi, who you name, had to revise their thoughts; Goethe encountered Schiller, who was a very different person. Gandhi, in moving from being a lawyer in South Africa, to a human right advocate in India.

It doesn’t have to do with holding a mix of ignorance and superstition but following the status quo of opinions. It is about accepting the state of the science while delving and learning more. Understanding grows, but it is always provisional, and we await the next update. This whole process is being human, not the process towards something you imagine as human but not achieved. You can’t move the goalposts. We don’t know what will be, but we are human, even if you have other expectations – which is your prejudice.

No, it is about trying to be the best person I can be today, and tomorrow trying to be better than I am today. Your imaginations lead you into a dreamworld, born out of your dissatisfaction with what you see. It remains elusive as long as it is just a dream or words on a page. It only becomes real when we try and accept that it may not be perfect or that we may fail altogether. Being human is imperfect because perfection isn’t the measure of man.

It’s like the story of the Zen monk who made his garden spotless in an attempt to make a perfect Zen Garden. His master hid, and when the gardener was out of sight, he shook the tree in the middle of the garden so that the leaves would fall. When the gardener appeared, his master said, “Now it is perfect!”

The human condition is where we are at. What you have portrayed is a delusion.

3

We could even frame the issue more positively. We have to assumes things. We all use intuition. It is part and parcel of the limitations or nature of being what we are. We cannot wait to live based solely on what has been proven (and those things that have been, have most likely been (supposedly) proven by others - we use our intuition to decide on whose supposed proofs or strong cases are actually that.) We wake up and generally have faith in our memories, though we know we can be wrong about specifics. We have all sorts of unconscious heuristics and assumptions about how to help, what the opposite sex is like, what the same sex is like, how much politics or bias or money has or has not affected the claims of expert X that we choose to believe in or not. When thinking something through there are hundreds of microinstances of using intuition - yes, my evaluation that what I just thought or wrote was a good one. I made sense and my argument is solid. There are people who think they arrive at all their beliefs just through reason, and only based on evidence, etc. I don’t think they are paying attention to what is actually happening in themselves.

[quote=“Peter_Kropotkin, post:1, topic:80484”]
and yet, faith is

a animal trait…
[/quote] he says. 1) he assumes that what he calls superstitious beliefs are all based on faith. Faith, in the sense of ‘believe without experience or evidence’ is a facet of Christianity, but there are religions and spiritualities that he seems to think are superstitious that are not based on faith. 2) how odd to attribute to animals what is uniquely human.

Exactly. And neither are the beliefs he would batch under faith, seeing, I think everything through the lens of Abrahamism vs. The Enlightenment, not understanding how empirical many spiritual systems are. He might want to hang out with, say, an indigenous shaman and try telling her that he belief is based on faith. Note: right now I am black boxing whether their belief is correct or not, but these beliefs are generally not faith-based. Christianity, yes, pushed a religion more based on faith and behavior - with many, many exceptions of course. But other religions and spiritualisties are more like technologies (of the mind/soul) and rely on training and experience to get one to a belief.

Thanks. i mean, you didn’t do this for me, but I’m grateful to see you respond in overlapping ways to how I did. He dismissed me as wrong and misrepresenting him - without really responding directly to most of what I pointed out. So, it was nice to see some similar reactions come from someone else.

4

I have called ‘‘faith’’ as being animal…

but one has to put it into context… as I have noted,
I believe the path is from animal to becoming human…
We were full blown animals millions of years ago…
no different than dogs or cats or cows…
then at some point, still unidentified, we began to
change into becoming human beings, with all that
entails… this question of being human is a question
of change… what does it mean to be human?

a dog cannot change who it is… neither can a cat or a cow…
it is what it is… what separates us from animals is this
idea of change… are we at the final point of being human?
are we complete as human beings? I say no…
we are still in the middle of becoming… of changing…
we are at some point between being animal and
becoming fully human… and that movement, and I point out
movement because that is change, development, evolution…
we human beings are on a journey… of being
literally an animal, to something else…

and I hold that the enemy of this journey, this evolution
of becoming, comes from ideas like faith…
faith is the enemy because it stands in the way of movement,
of evolution…

Faith: complete trust or confidence in someone or something…

a strong belief in god or in the doctrines of a religion, based on
spiritual apprehension rather than proof…

these are the two definitions of faith from my handy dandy dictionary…
and both of these definitions are, I believe, a danger to us human
beings… for one doesn’t have a reexamination of values, one cannot
if one has faith in, say god, or religion… if you have faith, there
is no need for a reexamination of values… if one has faith,
there cannot be an evolution of values… there is no journey
when one has faith… for there is no movement down the road where
there is faith… faith is the enemy of change and possibilities…

where their lies faith, lies contentment and satisfaction… both
of which is the enemy of evolution and change…

so, we return to this idea, of what does it mean to be human?
the path of being human lies along the path of change and
evolution… once we stop movement or change, we
become stagnant, idle, we stop the growth needed to
continue the road to becoming human… the path to
becoming human is of constant and ongoing change
and evolution…faith prevents this growth and evolution…
faith stops us from becoming, from change… As Nietzsche
might have put it…

Are human beings best served by being content, fulfilled,
gratified, pleased? No, a thousand times no…
Our road, our path is not easy, not easy at all…
once we become self-satisfied, we lose touch with
what makes us human… once we are touched by
faith, we lose touch with what makes us human…
I hold with Kazantzakis… that the road to becoming
human is filled with rocks and travels uphill and
it constantly rains and has thunder and lighting…
the path to becoming human is the hardest road to take…
there is no easy substitute or fix to becoming human…
and part of the enemy of becoming human is
faith, contentment, complacency, a sense of security,
satisfaction… for when we have these traits, we
stop moving, we stop seeking… and then we are no
better than animals… for part of being human lies in
our ongoing dissatisfaction and constant unhappiness…
and in this lies our true nature…we are never happy…
and that boys and girls, is a very good thing… for it
constantly drive us to becoming human…

but we go wrong in thinking that we can solve our
unhappiness with the trinkets of existence… money,
titles, material possession, power or fame…
a happy, contented human being is far less likely to
continue the necessary journey to becoming human…
there is no happiness or joy, there is just the journey to
becoming human… and it is the journey that counts…
and faith is the enemy of that journey…

if you seek faith, you seek the wrong goal…

seek the road… the dark and miserable road of becoming human…
where your companions are unhappiness and discontentment
and perhaps even misery… the person who first said that
the thing we seek is happiness, is the first liar of human beings…

Kropotkin

5

and look about us today… and what do you see?

I see very unhappy people and why are they unhappy?
we are told, time and time again, that we have the
highest standard of living in the history of the world,
and yet, despite that, we are not a happy group…
Perhaps having the highest standard of living of
anyone on planet earth, since the beginning of time,
that is what is making people miserable…we are seeking
out happiness and contentment, but we are not finding either
one… some of the most unhappy people around are the
religious ones… you would think finding god would bring
about peace and tranquility for these people…
but listen, truly listen to them… for they are the drivers
of the MAGA party… and the world for these people is
not a happy place… finding god certainly hasn’t stop
them from discontentment and unhappiness…

listen to the politicians and the discontentment with America
flows from the right far more than it does from the left…
the far more religious, are far more discontented…
you would think it is the opposite…
if, if finding god were to actually bring about happiness
and contentment… but that doesn’t seem to be the case,
if one listens to the right wing of America…

and as for our economic ‘‘miracle’’ the having the American
dream of owning a house, two cars in the driveway, two kids
and a dog named spot… I would say that people should be
satisfied and happy with the American dream and yet,
it is clearly not true…and where is that evidence Kropotkin?

it lies in the drug rates in America, and the use of booze
and the discontent of America lies in the violence of America…
and the ever-present malaise of American’s…
a happy contented America would have no need for drugs
or booze or violence or that malaise that surrounds
America like a deep fog… if the economic dream were enough,
we would be a far happier people and far more content…
the very discontentment of American’s suggests that the
American dream doesn’t fill our soul the way it ought to…

We have lost sight of the journey… we are stopped in
this journey of going from animal to becoming human…
and this has led to our discontent today…
as with any action, we are both engaged individually
and collectively… and in both, we are stopped on
the journey to becoming human…

or said another way, our attempts to find happiness has
backfired and we are now more unhappy than ever before…
and this must lead us to thinking that perhaps the real search
for human beings is not happiness or contentment,
but to becoming human… or to put it another way…
reach for what you cannot reach…

the path to becoming human is forever uphill… with
no end in sight, with no place to rest, with no easy
answers… and faith, happiness, contentment, satisfaction,
an enemy of the road to becoming… for we are wealthy,
spoiled with material goods of all kinds, living better than
any king of old… and yet, we are truly unhappy and miserable…
perhaps that is the understanding we need to make…
that there is no home for human nature… just the road
uphill…

Kropotkin

6

have you ever woke up in the middle of
the night and wondered, is this it?
Is this all there is to life? Is my next 30 or 40 years,
just a variation of today?

I have… and it is disconcerting to say the least…
but it is an important question…is this it?
What else do I have to look forward to in my life?
and this answers the question of why religions are
so important…I have the afterlife to quiet my
discontentment… but even the afterlife, leaves me
anyway, with discontentment… is that there is all to
eternal existence? There is no growth or change
allowed to us in the afterlife… just eternal viewing
of god’s greatness… rather boring and pointless if
you ask me… the entire point of eternal existence
is stagnation and boredom… nothing that interests me…
I prefer hell given the choice, at least in hell, there is
something to fight against… something to struggle
against… in heaven, eternal contentment…
just another variation of hell if you ask me…

the point of existence, may just well be the struggle,
the journey to becoming human… there is no final
destination or goal… just the journey…the struggle…
and I am ok with that…

for when in the middle of the night and I wonder,
what is the point of existence, I can truthfully say,
the journey to becoming is the point of existence…
and frankly, I will never reach the point of the struggle,
which is to become free of prejudice and superstitions
and false belief… I can only become less prejudice
and less superstitious…I can never eliminate it…
and that is the journey… to become less tied into
animal beliefs… which is stagnation and contentment…
the inability to change or adapt or evolve… that is what it
means to be animal… to be human is to change, to evolve
to adapt… but there is no final answer or some final change
we can become… there is only the struggle to the next
answer, not the final answer…

Kropotkin

7

and because of the idea that the point of existence
is the struggle, not the reaching of goals, we reject
metaphysics… that which is behind the physical…
of god, and heaven and hell and angels… the
struggle is not about some metaphysical understanding
of life, but about what it means to be human and that
isn’t about metaphysics… but about our place in the
material world, our place within birth and death…
any system that promises the end result being
metaphysical, must be rejected… as being incompatible with
the idea that existence is a journey to becoming human, which
is not a metaphysical journey…

to work out ethics/morality without metaphysics is the real
journey… the real struggle… to work out existence, what
it means to be human, without any reference to god, to
metaphysics, is the real journey… metaphysics
takes us away from that struggle… of becoming human…
faith takes us away from the struggle of becoming human…
the trinkets of existence takes us away from working out
what it means to be human…

Kropotkin

8

We weren’t. Something/one different from us was different from us.

Dogs can learn. I’m not saying that dogs are exactly like us, but they can learn and change.

But yes, it is true, we can change. And as homo sapiens developed the way they did, then, one of the things they changed to was the whole range of spiritual and religious states/practices/outlooks.

We’re becoming the specific kind of animal we are.

  1. not all movement is good, but then 2) religion has been moving and changing over time. Some changes good, some not so good…

Again, faith is a kind of Abrahamic idea. Faith not belief, not belief based on evidence. Having faith in any case. But many religions and approaches are extremely empirical. This doesn’t mean they are correct - in their interpretations - but it is confused and at a meme-level colonialist to project what became the European monotheisms onto all religion.

That’s simply not the case. All sorts of people have changed the way they interpreted their religions - with some this lead to changes in the religion or schisms, for example. There are also all sorts of stages and steps in certain traditions and these change the values the practitioner has. Indigenous/animist religions often have built in reformation via the visions and experiences of the practitioners, including of course the shamans.

This isn’t even true in the faith-based traditions. Here are some people whose beliefs/values/interpretations changed over time while remaining in the same religion.
Saint Augustine of Hippo
Martin Luther - and Martin Luther King for that matter
John Newton
C.S. Lewis
Mother Teresa
Many of the liberation theologists in Latin America
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Francis of Assisi
And then lots of not famous people whose beliefs, understanding and values develop while still being within Christianity.

You do realize that many religions specifically warn about becoming self-satisfied and sure of oneself. In fact, this isn’t always good, but that’s another story. Do you understand what it is for someone to desire to be Christlike or as close to being a good person in the Christian sense? You can think oneself generally finished and perfect as a secular person or a religious person, but within many religious traditions humility, avoiding hubris, self-reflection are all considered ongoing struggles that can never be perfected but one should strive to.

While critical of a number of aspects of organized religion, he revered Jesus, and was a spiritual person.

It’s ironic how much you sound Christian here, echoing many religious mystics from that and other traditions.

Thomas Merton - who definitely could have been on the earlier list.
“The truth that many people never understand is that the more you try to avoid suffering, the more you suffer because smaller and more insignificant things begin to torture you in proportion to your fear of being hurt.”

Rumi (1207–1273)
“The wound is the place where the Light enters you.”
“When you go through a hard period, When everything seems to oppose you… When you feel you cannot even bear one more minute, never give up! Because it is the time and place that the course will divert!”

Simone Weil
“The extreme greatness of Christianity lies in the fact that it does not seek a supernatural remedy for suffering but a supernatural use for it.”
“Affliction compels us to recognize as real what we do not think possible.”
Rainer Maria Rilke
“Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something helpless that wants help from us.”
“Let everything happen to you: beauty and terror. Just keep going. No feeling is final.”
Manh more such similar attitudes from beloved figures in various religions can be found. And not just, but certainly in, descriptions of the Dark Night of the Soul.

The all the wounded healer traditions in shamanism and elsewhere.

9

Peter,

I can’t see what you intend to achieve with this rambling.

When someone refers to the “human condition,” they typically ask about the fundamental aspects of human existence. This can involve exploring universal experiences such as suffering, love, mortality, the search for meaning, and the complexities of human nature. The question invites reflection on what it means to be human, encompassing both individual and collective struggles, desires, and challenges.

It’s an inquiry into the common threads that bind all people, regardless of culture, time, or place, focusing on aspects like:

  • How we deal with life’s joys and hardships
  • The inevitability of death and the search for purpose
  • The tension between freedom and responsibility
  • The complexity of human emotions and relationships

At its core, the question asks what it means to live as a human being in a world shaped by external circumstances and inner consciousness.

But that is where the problems arise. The answer to the “human condition” question is inherently multilayered, reflecting the complexity and diversity of human experience. Every individual and culture approaches it differently, depending on historical context, personal background, societal norms, and spiritual or philosophical beliefs.

For example:

  • Philosophical perspectives might focus on existential questions about meaning, purpose, and the absurdity of life, as seen in the works of thinkers like Jean-Paul Sartre or Albert Camus.
  • Psychological perspectives could explore the nature of emotions, relationships, and people’s internal struggles.
  • Spiritual or religious perspectives often delve into questions of morality, the soul, the afterlife, and our connection to something greater.
  • Sociopolitical perspectives would examine how external systems like oppression, privilege, and power dynamics shape the human condition.

No one answer can fully capture the human condition, and any attempt to do so only adds a new layer of insight from your perspective. Our experiences influence our understanding, and when combined, these insights form a mosaic of what it means to be human.

So, your perspective is one stone in that mosaic, which is uncertain of where it fits in.

10

You’re correct, Bob, all of this movement doesn’t have much of an effect on the human condition.

However (as I suggested to felix dakat in an alternate thread), it speaks volumes regarding the degree to which the general level of human consciousness has been purposely attenuated in such a way so as to prevent us from noticing how utterly strange our earthly situation truly is.

It also speaks volumes regarding the unthinkable order that is in play here, wherein a giant orb such as the earth can rotate on an axis and move laterally through space at tremendous speeds (67,000 mph around the sun) without any of its passengers having the slightest sensation of any movement taking place.

Do you not find that fascinating?