The loss of ART, why?

Philosophy Forums Philosophy
1

We have to wonder why we moderns have lost ART?
Name me a great painter over the last 50 years?
I googled it and the name that came up was Gerhard Richter…
whom I have never heard of… not only that, when do we
hear any news about ART? When an ART piece sells for millions
of dollars…and that isn’t about the ART but about money…

Now I have also noted that we human beings have been devalued,
dehumanized over the last 200 years…I must wonder if there
is a connection between the creation of ART and the ongoing
dehumanization/devaluing of human beings?

That human beings are fractured and alienated and disconnected
from each other cannot be denied…but we are also fractured,
alienated and disconnected from who we are, and I suspect
therein lies the inability to create great ART…

Let us look at an Artist who created great ART and seemed to
be alienated, disconnected from himself and the society…
Vincent van Gogh…What we can take away from Van Gogh life
is the fact he was mentally ill…is it possible that the only way
to create ART in the modern age is to be mentally ill?

Kropotkin, that is an awfully broad brush you are making with
ART and artists… but in this day and age of conformity
and the societies drive to homogenized everyone into
fixed boxes and set boundaries… leads us to think
that the ensuing failure to create ART, comes from
this devaluation of human beings into numbers
and the dehumanization of us…

so to prove my point, do as I have done recently and
called my work, the union, the state and each of them
will not talk to me until I provide them with the correct
number proving I am who I say I am… call the bureaucracy
and try to engage with them as a human being? You can’t…
you are scientifically examined… measured, weighed, timed…
your context of being human is found in the many ways that
society/the state holds us as numbers and measurements…

I wonder how anyone can create ART when the society/ the state
only see’s us as our birthdate, our social security number, my work number,
my union number, my disability number…

Heaven forbids that I forget my numbers…
how would the state/the society be able to identify me
without my various numbers?

we have been devalued, dehumanized, turned into numbers
by faceless bureaucrats, who themselves are identified
by their numbers by other faceless bureaucrats…
and it goes on, into infinity…

How do we celebrate our own individual uniqueness given
that we are no longer seen as being human or unique…
I live in a number building, with a number on my condo,
with a many numbers identifying who I am and where I live…
my zip code is 940… … Try to communicate to someone without
a zip code? You can’t…

If I am not a unique person, with my own value, exactly how
am I to create unique ART? I can’t…

If I am just another number in the midst of millions of numbers,
how do I even know what my value is? is the number 125,269 unique?
and how is that number unique given that it is one of millions of
numbers? and so we can no longer claim to be individuals, an unique
individual, given all I am is just a number in the machine?

Had Kierkegaard lived in our age, he would have to bow down
to the fact that we are no longer considered individuals, unique
or otherwise… we are numbers given to us by the all encompassing
bureaucracy…

is the solution simply to burn down the system and start over?
This is one of the Anarchist answers and I have rejected that as
being far too detrimental to all concerned…
but must it come back into play? Perhaps… perhaps…

and as for ART… we bow our heads and offer up prayers
to the end of ART… until we can become unique individuals
once again…

Kropotkin

2

_
Why do you think your word is always gospel and final?

The loss of Art? Do you go to galleries to see current art?

3

It can be said that all history, political science, psychology,
philosophy can be a working out of the two (there are more forces
but we shall only engage in these today) forces… that of
repression and freedom…

we can look at history right now and see that we are heading into
a time frame where the forces of history are in favor of repression,
control, oppression and restraint… that is one of the two go to
in our human history… and the other aspect is freedom, liberty…

the go to of historical forces has been in repression and
restraint… the Greeks were about freedom and liberty,
the Renaissance was about freedom and liberty…

and the Romans were about repression, restraint, control,
the Medieval period was about restraint and control…
and the last hundred years has been about repression
and control…

or we can think about it this way, in periods of repression
and control were historical periods of fear and danger…
historical periods of freedom and liberty were historical periods
of happiness and openness…

to be honest, human beings are afraid of who they are
and what is possible for them… I know people who are
quite proud of the fact that they never get out of control…
they brag about it… and yet, I can and have been out of control,
for me personally, it isn’t about restraint or control…

I am in control because I have been out of control in the past…
as Nietzsche has put it, I did it and now I am beyond the need to
control or repress… I am free… for I control my nature be it
the control need or the freedom need…

I overcame my need for repression and control… for I am strong
enough to contain my liberty and freedom… I am in control
of my actions and my state of mind…

conservatives are afraid to contain who they are and thus they
need to control and repress…look at their understanding of
human nature… they follow Machiavelli in thinking that human
beings are who they were born as… a person born out of control can
never learn to control themselves…once born a criminal, always
a criminal… there is no possibility of change in who one is…
they have a negative understanding of human beings…
and for that reason, conservatives hold to repression and restraint,
not to liberty or freedom…because as it is human nature to be out
of control, we cannot allow them a chance to get out of control,
the society/ the state to survive must control and repress its
citizens… to allow freedom and liberty, can lead to possible
loss of control…

and as I am not afraid of this loss of control, thus I
favor adults, to have access to drugs, porn, hookers…
I am not afraid that people will make bad choices, thus I
am in favor of abortions… to allow people the freedom
of choice… to allow freedom, liberty to the point of
the possibility of chaos and disorder…something a conservative
will never allow because of their fear of a loss of control…

I have no need to control to restrain and control
other people…

and how does this relate to ART?
ART is created in the pursuit of freedom
and liberty, not in control and repression…

so as long as conservatives are in control,
we will not see great ART…for ART can only happen
in times of freedom, liberty…

Kropotkin

4

K: I have been in museums all over,
both America and in Europe…
So, who is a great Artist of the last 50 years and why
this person?

Kropotkin

5

There is more art now than at anytime in history.

People have more time to do it; more time to find it; more money to buy it; and more time to enjoy it.

If you want abstract, realism, hyperrealism, allegorical, conceptual it is all there.

You can find art in sculpture, painting, theatre, film, tv architecture, and literature.

We are overwhelmed with art and it reaches into every home.

I was watching A Netflix series today “Shadow and Bone”, the production values are magnificant. All those props are made by artists and designers.

Do you live in a BOX? Look around you. Everything in your living space is designed with art.

Open your damn eyes you are a total philistine.

6

K: with mass produced ART made in factories with workers, not
Artists… you talk about a TV show with “magnificent” production values…
but is that ART? Is it something I can hang on my wall and examine,
or is it something that I can see in a museum? Does it have
permanence?

Such ART as you mentioned is but shadows… written in clouds
and sunshine…it is not permanent, or lasting… just as a well
written TV show cannot be considered to be ART… because it has
no lasting value… will future generations be able to see or understand
the nature of that TV show with its “magnificent” production values?

Think of the performance ART of the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s…
is that really ART given no one can recall or remember any of it?

And all of this leads us to what exactly is ART? Is ART something
to make our living space beautiful? or is ART something
else altogether… what is the value of ART?

I think that the point of ART is to say something about our existence,
too say something timeless about what it means to be human…
When we look at ART, it should say something about what it means
to be human… look at the painting by Edvard Munch, “The Scream”
it is ART because it says something about the human condition…
Now we might not understand what it says about the human condition,
but it says something and we should take the time to understand
what it says…whereas I have art on the wall or on my bookcase,
but does it say anything about the human condition? No, not at all…
Great ART forces us to think or rethink about what it means to
be human or the human condition…

or think about the Beatles… why do we think about them as
being the greatest rock band of all time? what separates them
from say, Poco or Van Halen? Most of, most of the Beatles songs
say something timeless about the human condition… Take, “Hey Jude”
for example, why is that a great song? Because it says something
about what it means to be human… it is timeless…
whereas take the song, “Maxwell’s silver hammer” does that song
say anything about what it means to be human? NO, not at all…

you have to consider what ART means before you can claim
I am wrong…

and so, what is ART?

Kropotkin

7

I disagree that Vincent Van Gogh and the Beatles are great artists. I also disagree that “The Scream” is a great painting (I can’t even say it’s good.)

But I do agree that art is dead. Of course, that’s not to say that great art no longer exists, merely that it isn’t sufficiently popular.

Modern art is technically strong but spiritually it’s pretty weak.

8

let us try this… name some great poets working
right now…

I came across this list as posted by the “Harvard Crimson”
the paper by Harvard University…

Ocean Vuong
Ada Limon
Richard Silken
Warsan Shire
Maggie Nelson

and this is a slightly different list;
Louise Glucky
Dorthea Lasky
Eileen Myles…

and anyone here honestly say they have read any of these people?
or about ever heard of them…I can’t say I have…
and I think that poetry is dead because in our “modern” age,
there is no point in exploring timeless issues within poetry…
who is going to read it?

ART to be ART must be seen, heard, touch, smelled or tasted…
it must impact the senses in some fashion and it must
be timeless in its impact…we see the poem in question
as giving us a timeless understanding of the human condition…

and what poets/poems today, give us an timeless understanding
of the human condition…

Now, let us be clear, I think the loss of poetry and ART is
a grave loss for us… it diminishes us as human beings…
to reclaim our human legacy, we must reengage with ART,
be it painting, poetry or music…we must reengage with who
we are in a timeless manner and ART is best suited for us to do so…

Kropotkin

9

and when I explore ART, it is exploring another aspect of
the human condition, just as I have explored philosophy,
history, psychology, science… ART is just another
aspect of what it means to be human…and ART has as much
value as science, philosophy, history, psychology in explaining
the human condition…

You want to know what it means to be human, we can find
that just as easily in ART as we can find it in the other disciplines,
such as history and philosophy, among others…

ART has as much value and worth as history, psychology, philosophy,
and science… we just need to listen to it… and try to understand it,
not just dismiss it… as we do today…

Kropotkin

10

_
Art -like music- was borne from need of survival… like all things human-derived.

I’m not overly-critical of Art per se, only of excessively bad Art, of which ‘bad’ is usually very evident.

NFTs are evidence that Art is not lost, and might even encourage more, creative, Art.

11

MagsJ: _
Art -like music- was borne from need of survival… like all things human-derived.

K: ART and Music I don’t believe derive from the “need of survival”,
I hold that ART and Music and history and philosophy and social sciences,
all derive from the act of expression…to be honest, we don’t need ART or
music or literature to survive… we do need food, love, shelter,
education… to survive but not ART…
ART and Music for example flow from an abundance of strength,
not from weakness…

M: I’m not overly-critical of Art per se, only of excessively bad Art, of which ‘bad’ is usually very evident.

K: and one person’s “bad ART” is another person act of beauty… Personally,
I despise RAP, as CRAP, but to others, RAP is the highest ART form… it is beyond
bad to me… but I hold that the band “The WHO” is one of the great rock bands
of all time and to others, (I just don’t how) but to others “The WHO” is a crap
band…and who is right? I can’t tell…

M: NFTs are evidence that Art is not lost, and might even encourage more, creative, Art.

K: I had to look up what NFTs are…as far as I can tell, (and I may be seriously wrong)
but as far as I can tell, NFT don’t seem to be much more than a Ponzi scheme
done on computers…and I can’t tell where exactly is the “created ART” part is…
but again, the failure could very well be me…

Kropotkin

12

_
I’m talking from a historical/anthropological angle Peter, before Human need, changed… the evolution of [all] things, over time.

And… what Sculptor said, which correlates with the above ^^^.

13

K: and I suspect (but can’t prove) Sculptor is simply wrong…to call
a painting on the wall of a doctor’s office as ART is frankly rather insulting
to ART…the ART Sculptor refers to is the background noise to our
lives… and we have all seen the paintings on doctors walls,
is that really ART? No, no it isn’t… for that schlock painting
tells us nothing about the human condition or what is beauty
or how we should live our lives… it is simply something on
a wall to keep that wall from looking blank… nothing more…
at best, at best that crappy painting deserves to be burned
as an affront to anyone who actually values ART…may as
well have a picture of dogs playing poker…for the value
that “ART” on the doctor’s wall counts for…

Kropotkin

14

_
If? IF!

…and take up the latter with Sculptor!

15

Even if it is mass produced it still has to be originally made by an artist.
Even the greatest Sculptors such as Rodin reproduced several versions of his famous sculptures.
I doubt you think art by ordinary plebs gets to qualify as art, but yo have only to look at fan art, and art that is shared over the Internet to know that there is more art being done than at any time in history. Art which is PURE.
ART which is made without a single thought of making a living from it, or even selling any of it.

Your poor attempts at poetry would not achieve publication, but even that is almost art.

You have shot yourself in the foot there.
There is no definition of art which requires it to be remembered.
What of the performance art of the 50s, 40s, 30, 20s, 10, 00s, 1890s… ad infinitem.
What if that is remembered? Why does it matter?
But since you ask… Yes I remember many great examples of performance art.
60s… “IF”, “Doctor Strangelove”, “2001 a Space Odyssey”, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Miles Davis.
70s. “Apocalypse Now”, “Quadrophenia”, “The Godfather”, “The Deer Hunter”, Led Zep, Pink FLoyd, Yes, Genesis.
80s. “Full Metal Jacket”, “The Meaning of Life”, “Ghandi”, etc…

Speaking as an artist to a non artist. If you don’t know what art is then you have no business starting this thread.

16

Resident Jesus freak here.

VG says art will never be dead because Love will never not be a Thing we aspire to … materialize.

So let’s get that going.

We didn’t start the fire. We just spread it.

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73189DA5-F62E-41CA-902A-D44755866FDB.jpeg496×604 76 KB

17

And then before trying to figure out what art is, can an attempt to fix that work of figuring out how to do things work , including working out things that include how to do that?
How to do things including how to do art may come before trying to figure what it is.

That taking color and mixing it comes before trying to put it in canvas

There are at least consensus as how colors are.made to fit in different patterns to show points of view, depth of what the art shows to mean, and if that criteria was not followed art would be lost to it’s minimal value .

The absurd art is still art but there is a difference between absurdity and absolute incomprehensibility.
Even the absurd strung together has some reason behind it, for it’s exhibition , it creates a feeling of wanting to impress or express something outside the box of colorful oil that are used to somehow match that outside on a canvas with those forms of material

what it is secondary to how to work it ’ out’ , ?

Some people can never work out the way to remove the material needed to form any sort of things that can be put together in order to see what it is that is supposed to represent at all , and they give up trying to duplicate what way to transfer, with the use of what’s in the box mixed with the medium of how to do it, and ending up with separating the ‘how to’ from what it represents.

18

What came first:

the impulse for beauty
the need to reproduce it
the need to add to it
[ insert your own ]

The Word. …Love.

The greatest of these is beautiful.

The Good/Great without Love is The Ugly (misses the mark… makes a mark that does not signify the unbounded real…)

Too close.

/rambling

19

At first there was no comprehension to loose. Everything was beyond comprehension. And then comparisons could be made, and when one was lost the the other retained, it was kept and acquired meaning and value. That was the beginning if how to work it, and to do it . The need to work. became primary. Lived of it followed.

Which came first, and there is no reason for saying this: the love of art, or
the art of love?
The incomparable before the comparable?
Perhaps that is where the absurd kicks in it’s newly borne teeth but looses it to permanance soon enough.

20

This is at the root of understanding consciousness. All science can do is reverse engineer. This is philosophy. Science can only tell you the phenomenal is. You need philosophy to get at the good and beautiful over & below the phenomenal.

Spit out that tasteless reduction.

The golden rule & the impulse for beauty is transcultural because there is love and beauty that satisfies. You don’t evolve or develop a taste for something that isn’t there.