K: I am glad you think I am humorous, I shall be here all week and please don’t forget to tip.
Anyway, superior perspective? hardly, just different and that is the point. No one has a perfect map?
really, I never said anyone had a perfect map, I said each person has their own map, nothing about perfect.
As far as the terrain goes, it changes, changes every day in every way, how well will your map work
if things change every day?
Kropotkin
K: nope, according to physics, hummingbirds cannot fly and yet they do. UMMMM, our map is wrong or the terrain
is wrong, your choice.
Kropotkin
K: and once again with the perfect map, words I never said, but never allow that to interfere with
a argument. Tried and true, when in doubt, simply make up words for your adversary and react to that.
How about reacting to my words, not your words. AS far as black and white thinking and your other
claims, well, you are arguing against yourself because I have never said perfect, I said different. I am
not presuming anything in regards to what people think or don’t think, I’ll let you do that. I must say,
you create your own argument which has nothing to do with me and then indict me with a phony argument,
Stay with what I have actually written, instead of making shit up.
Kropotkin
You don’t know physics. Just as with your politics, you listen only to those who say what you want to hear.
“Superior perspective” because you are telling us how wrong we are and how right you are. You are not merely saying that we are “different”, as you have claimed. You are telling us that we are wrong. How could you be so right to our wrong if not through a superior perspective?
And my “map” tells me that everything does NOT change in every way, every day. Are you still married? That didn’t change over night, did it? The Earth is still roundish, isn’t it? How many days has it been that way? When do you expect it to change? Tomorrow?
If things changed every day in every way as you proclaim, homosapian would never have existed, much less prospered. Chaos breeds only destruction.
With a strawman, you accuse me of a strawman. Why am I not surprised. You went on and on about how my thinking, my “map”, was wrongly “black and white”. Need I quote you to prevent you from lying further?
Well one of us seems to be. You and Bigus have a lot in common, a presumptuous subconscious keeping your conscious from seeing yourself by projecting, liberally painting, your own sins onto your image of others, never yourself.
You say “different”, but you presume nothing.
So what you say isn’t what you presume? Or do you presume that “different” is nothing?
You proclaim “black and white thinking”. You proclaim that physicists don’t understand hummingbirds. You proclaim all sorts of things about “right-wing” people. You seem to make an awful lot of proclamations about other people’s thinking while presuming nothing. You must be a very certain, confident guy having such “perfect” perception, needing no presumption.
Yep. You and Bigus are like two pods in the pee, so consistently accusing of what you’re so guilty.
J: “Superior perspective” because you are telling us how wrong we are and how right you are. You are not merely saying that we are “different”, as you have claimed. You are telling us that we are wrong. How could you be so right to our wrong if not through a superior perspective?
And my “map” tells me that everything does NOT change in every way, every day. Are you still married? That didn’t change over night, did it? The Earth is still roundish, isn’t it? How many days has it been that way? When do you expect it to change? Tomorrow?
If things changed every day in every way as you proclaim, homosapian would never have existed, much less prospered. Chaos breeds only destruction.
K: As I am always about the large picture, I will go from there. I am stealing straight from David Hume’s playbook
as far as to the limits of our knowledge goes, in addition, this is almost an organization vs entropy debate, almost.
You have the terrain, which is another way of saying reality. We humans have created maps to navigate
the terrain. Now maps can be anything that describes reality. We have science, philosophy, actual maps,
religion, anything that attempts to chart the location of things.
Driving from California to Chicago, which I have done several times, you have on your map, certain details. You have the road itself, you have cities,rivers, mountains, lakes, ocean, these drawings on the map represent actual physical entities. So in driving from San Francisco to Chicago, the first part of the drive is from SF to Elko or Ely Nevada. if you get daring you can try to go to Salt lake city in one shot, but that is a long, long drive. You have your map and it heads northeast for a long while. The map however doesn’t tell you about current conditions, like construction, so you hit Nevada and for some reason they are rebuilding the road and you find signs directing you into side streets. Now your map for some reason doesn’t have this rebuilding listed. Why, because it is out of date.
It was correct and accurate at the time of printing, but years later, the details on the ground have changed.
It seems they are rebuilding the road and to do so, they will build a side road that will have the traffic on it.
Your map doesn’t list this. the details on the ground has changed but the map isn’t current. This same idea
goes for ism’s and ideologies. Ism’s and ideologies are simply road maps for the terrain of our lives.
Catholicism says that the terrain on the ground has a god, angels, heaven and hell and to reach heaven,
you must drive your life this way. You must follow the ten commandments if you want to reach heaven,
the ten commandments are a map to heaven. Capitalism is a map saying that to achieve prosperity you
must travel this road. capitalism is a path of the individual, it is an individual path or road.
Communism is a map of the same terrain but it says something different, it says only by banding together can we achieve this goal of economic prosperity. Every single ism and ideology is a road map of some sort leading
to some destination. We the people in order to build a more perfect union… road map.
However just as in taking a driving trip, the terrain we live in changes.
Sometimes dramatically, sometimes not, but the one thing you can be sure of in life is change.
The assumption is that the terrain that we live in never changes and thus the road map we have
still fits the details on the ground. But we don’t challenge the idea that the road map we currently
have of the terrain or reality we live in, hasn’t changed.
Capitalism is out of date with the conditions on the ground and that is shown everyday with massive unemployment of the last several years, with the severe economic turndown of the last several years beginning in 2007 lasting until this year. The GOP road map to that reality is to cut taxes and thus the job creators will have money to create
jobs. that has been proven to be false because bush massive unpaid for tax cut of 2003 didn’t create
a single job in bush’s 8 years. First president since Hoover not to have created a single job in his
term of office. (job gains minus job losses equals total, in other words more jobs were lost than
gained in his 8 years) so the road map that the GOP uses has been proven false. It fails the basic
test of getting us to our destination of job growth. It failed to take into account the situation on the ground
which is simply tax cuts have never created jobs. that is the reality, the terrain.
That is one situation where the map and the terrain don’t match. I can list several such
situations where the map we have doesn’t fit the reality on the ground, the terrain.
Our failure of late has been dependence on maps that no longer fit the terrain
on the ground due to changes.
Now some may say, certain realities, certain terrains will stay the same regardless of what the map
says. This is wrong because everything changes. What maps we have simply have the current, present
location of reality. But the fact is even things that seem eternal are not. I can only speak of here, right now,
the population of New York is right as this second and that isn’t even true because of movement of people
in New York. You can never get an accurate total of the number of people in New York. The facts we have
that we base our maps on are just approximations. We have facts like there are 6 billion people on the earth
and we create maps of the terrain based on that number, 6 billion people. the problem is that number of 6 billion
is really nothing more than a guess because we can never get an accurate total on the population of the earth.
I have been told it is 6 billion people, but I can’t go around counting everyone on earth. I simply can’t.
so the number we have 6 billion is just a guess, an approximation of the total number of people on earth.
I can never know and you can never know the exact number because of the changes in population.
Facts are simply approximations. We create our maps of the terrain based on facts, yet the facts are really just guesses, and so we based our idea of reality, of the terrain on nothing more than an approximation, an guess.
People treat facts as written in stone whereas we must treat facts as nothing more than guesses. Every fact
upon which we base our maps on, is a guess. Every fact is subject to change, not written in stone, unchangeable.
We take facts as reality and they are not.
Kropotkin
Well, skipping past your misunderstanding of capitalism, my “map” tells me that you are talking about to different things, conflating them:
A) a map needs to be updated to track a terrain.
B) a terrain must be updated to track a map.
Maintaining a socioeconomic system is a type (B) affair wherein a chosen terrain design is suggested and activities are aimed at forming and maintaining that design, whether it be capitalistic, socialistic, communistic, or human rational. The design is “the map” being used to update the spuriously changing terrain, “maintenance”. Life itself is a maintenance system, constantly having to restore itself by attempting to compensate for spurious variations, interactions, or occurrences.
If there was no terrain, there could be no design for a terrain. There could be no socioeconomic model to be maintaining. If there was no terrain, there could be no map to update to match said terrain.
The issue of which and how much of each of those is better to be involved in (the entire world of human conflict) is an admission that both a terrain and maps exist and are constantly being changed and updated.
Oh, you meant according to our model of physics. You said ‘according to physics’ which to me isn’t the same thing as ‘according to our model of physics’. This is why it’s important to be clear when you’re talking about the map or the territory.
Well I can guarantee you that our map is wrong, in numerous ways, and there aren’t many physicists who would disagree with that (none who are remotely intelligent).
But I’ve not seen that it’s wrong in that way. It might be that we don’t know all of the relevant physics of how humming birds fly, but you’re saying that the current model(s) of physics completely disallow it – I don’t think that’s the case. I’d like to see a source.
K: you know what’s great about being old, you totally forget you make a statement until someone reminds
you and you go, Oh, yah, I did say that, didn’t I. So I did say that, didn’t I? anyway, I read it on some
science site and for some reason I really can’t remember why, but it seem to be a logical place in the
the conversation to bring this point up. OK, so I read it somewhere. Who, what, where, when, why or how
I couldn’t tell you to save my life. As I said, its great to be old and senile.
Kropotkin
As I said, you in particular, hold onto what you want(ed) to believe, then espouse the great truth of it.
K: a piece of advice from an old man, get a sense of humor. it will help you on those long dark nights when
existence scares the hell out of you. We all, all of us, believe in something and we all, all of us,
espouse the great truth of it. the question is not that, the question is really is that great truth we believe
in relative or absolute? I say it is relative and you say absolute. It is a world view question. The map is not
an accurate representation of reality and you say the map is an accurate representation.
world view, that is all this conversation is about, different world views. in 40 plus years of looking, I have
yet found anything to be absolute. There is no belief or reality that is absolute. It is all how we look at it.
Kropotkin