The Measuring of Religion

Philosophy Forums Religion and Spirituality
1

11.24.06.1677

Wikipedia and adherents.com both serve the purpose of this thread as measuring the state of religious belief in the world. As of 2005, major religious groups in the world are ranked according to the number of adherents. Due to the human need to categorize and label, we have Christianity up at the top. However, upon further inspection, we find that Christianity is only number one because of the generalized label placed upon what people believe. If we were to…say… break it down, we would find that measuring religion based solely on the denominations of each religion, to represent where the majority and the minority of certain beliefs are held, we would surely find that Christianity is severely over-estimated in its generalization.

So… if we measure religion, simply based on denominational sects of certain belief systems, this is how it would turn out:

(This list includes major religious groups ranking in adherents of and above 1 Million members just to keep things from going to far down the road. Of course, all these numbers are just statistical estimates… so what the hell, right?)

  1. Roman Catholic Christians: 1.05 Billion (That’s literally half of the total count of “Christians” in the world.)
  2. Sunni Muslims: 940 Million (Most likely to become number one in the next decade.)
  3. Non-Religious/Secular*: 755 Million (Rounded estimate.)
  4. Vaishna Hindus: 580 Million
  5. Agnostics/Freethinkers/Etc.: 510 Million (Rounded estimate.)
  6. Chinese Folk Religion: 394 Million
  7. Primal Indigenous/Tribal: 300 Million (Animist, Shamanist, etc.)
  8. Eastern Orthodox Christians: 240 Million
  9. Atheists/Anti-Religious/Anti-Theistic: 240 Million (Rounded estimate.)
  10. Shai Hindus: 220 Million
  11. Mahayana Buddhists: 185 Million
  12. Theravada Buddhists: 124 Million
  13. Shi’ite Muslims: 120 Million
  14. African Indigenous Christians: 110 Million (Various sects.)
  15. Pentecostal Christians: 105 Million
  16. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 Million
  17. Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United: 75 Million
  18. Anglican/Episcopal: 73 Million
  19. Baptist: 70 Million
  20. Methodist: 70 Million
  21. Lutheran: 64 Million
  22. Sikhs: 23 Million
  23. Neo-Hindus & Reform Hindus: 22 Million
  24. Vajrayana/Tibetan Buddhists: 20 Million
  25. Spiritism: 15 Million
  26. Jehovah’s Witnesses: 14.8 Million
  27. Latter-Day Saints (Mormons): 12.5 Million
  28. Adventist Christians: 12 Million
  29. Apostolic/New Apostolic Christians: 10 Million
  30. Ahmadiyya Muslims: 10 Million
  31. Veerashaiva/Lingayat Hindus: 10 million
  32. Bahá'í Faith: 7 Million
  33. Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement: 5.4 Million
  34. Conservative Jews: 4.5 Million (…and the Jews finally fall in the mix at 35th place!!)
  35. Svetambara Jains: 4 Million
  36. Shinto: 4 Million (Could possibly be 100 Million; putting it just under Pentecostal Christianity.)
  37. Cao Dai: 4 Million
  38. Reform Jews: 3.5 Million
  39. Zoarostrianists: 2.6 Million
  40. Tenrikyo: 2 Million
  41. Orthodox Jews: 2 Million
  42. New Thought: 1.5 million
  43. Brethren: 1.5 million
  44. Mennonite: 1.25 million

*=Accounts of those who most likely still do believe in the existence of a deity or deities but simply do not associate themselves with any mainstream belief system. However, certain belief systems given from person to person may account for a influence in an over-all idea of the nature of the universe. The number includes Secular Jews.

Just as an honorable mention, for FutureMan’s sake, the Quakers come in at 300,000… Another honorable mention goes to the Unitarians, who come in at 800,000… everyone else under 1 Million besides the Quakers and Unitarians are pretty much inconsequential and generally meaningless to the world (based on adherents that is)…

Dishonorable mentions go to Scientology and Rastafari; two belief systems that I don’t even consider religions. Seriously, what’s wrong with these people?

I did not include Falun Gong in this list because it really isn’t a religion in my opinion; however I don’t hold it in contempt as those in the dishonorable mention. I also did not include any Neopagan religions, not just because they all total 1 Million, but because there’s so many sub-branches (Wicca for example has 16 branches of thought, but there are believed to be many more “unregistered.”)

2

11.25.06.1682

Of course, one must ask: Dear Sagesound, what does this new list prove? Were you trying to somehow conform to our delusions that you hate Christianity and wanted to belittle it? What exactly was the point of this thread?

Well, Dear Inquisitor (or whoever you are that is reading this post)… I’ll explain…

There is the human misconception that whatever is greatest is ultimately the most superior. For our purposes of this thread, it would seem that under normal generalized statistical analysis, Christianity holds the first place trophy for having the most adherents. However, after dividing this into denominations, we still find that Roman Catholicism is still the biggest religious belief in the world. Thus, just as a KKK member may think that a white person is superior to a black, is it not that same mentality that constitutes the thinking that a person of a particular belief; especially one that ranks as the largest, that such a person is superior to others?

This mentality is grossly erroneous and should be eliminated. However, it sadly still exists due to common human psychology that determines egotistical and prideful thought (it is human nature). On this site we have people who believe that are better than others; in some cases due to the thinking of absolutism which leads to the conclusion that one must be superior to others who do not believe in what they believe in. (Ned Flanders comes to mind.)

So… if we take a moment and go under the assumption that a person who has a belief in something that is believed by the largest number of persons, that person is most superior to all other persons of differing beliefs. While this is ridiculous, bare with me for a moment.
How many Roman Catholic Christians have made themselves known and been shown to be very outspoken individuals of their belief? During my time here, I have not noticed any aside from PoR, and he shouldn’t count.
How many Sunni Muslims? I couldn’t say… I’ve seen some extremely fervent Muslims come on this site, but I don’t know know if they were Sunni.
The point is, that based on sheer numbers, (and this is the part where I’m sure to get railed by people like Ned), is that smaller denominations of a belief or an entire belief (when applied to this superiority thinking) become belittled by statistics alone. The only solution for those of a certain belief… Christianity and Islam for example… is for everyone to convert to Roman Catholicism or Sunni Islam.
We would only have Vaishna Hinduism and Mahayana Buddhism… etc.
In the end, as there would be no differing denominations, we would finally have an ingeneralized statistic, granting Christianity it’s 2.1 Billion adherents. Of course, they would all be Roman Catholic, but no one would use that term; just Christianity: as there is only one.

As a result, and the grand point that I’m getting at…
For those people who think of themselves so highly, check the list of the top 45 largest beliefs in the world and see where you fall in. Maybe you won’t feel so high and mighty anymore, or maybe you’ll call it hogwash to further preserve your delusion that you are better than everyone else.

Here’s where I get accused for hating Christians:
The rude and biased way to put it is; if you’re Christian and not a Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, you need to shut the hell up with your holier than thou attitude because as it turns out, you rank lower than the total Atheists in the world. Lower than Agnostics, Secular Non-Religious folk, Sunni Muslims, Vaishna Hindus, Chinese Folk Religious… folk…, and even the Primal Indigenous/Tribal folk…
Of course, you can choose not to use statistics as a reason for promoting your superiority, which is fine by me. Why? Because by not accepting the symbolic meaning of statistics, you accept that all are equal regardless of belief.

The measuring of religion and statistics in general is BULLSHIT.

Thank you for reading.

3

Just as a quick rebuttal to this attitude, a disciple asked Confucius if everyone in a town liked someone, can he be said to be good? Of course, Confucius responded that such a person is definately not good. Another, rather kiss-ass student then chimed in thinking he’d answered the question by exclaiming that the truly virtuous man was disliked by everybody. Confucius sorta rolled his eyes realizing that he was going to have to have yet another lecture on virtue tomorrow, putting off a very exciting verse from the Odes and says that it would be far better to say that the sort of person who is virtuous is disliked by the bad people in town and liked by the good people in town.

I think most religions have a similar philosophy. The number of believers is, in actuality, irrelevant to whether or not it is true. Heck, Calvin said that only, what, 10,000 people are getting into Heaven? The truth doesn’t care how many people believe in it, it merely is.

Now, a community is a good and worthwhile thing, so if you alone hold the key to the one true Truth, who cares? Even if you are wrong, being wrong in a group provides other meaningful things that are independent of the rightness or wrongness of one’s thoughts.

4

“Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal.”

5

Sage,

I know what you’re driving at, but it simply won’t work. The numbers work in two opposire ways: High numbers = superiority, and low numbers = superiority (exclusiveness). Xunzian pointed out that Calvanistic thinking that allows tiny groups to claim the “Truth”.

The issue is still one of us - them. Religions are, and will probably always be, exclusive. We are living in a time when the extremists in all religions are proclaiming their one-and-only Truth. The complexity behind all of this has one common denominator: fear. This isn’t going to change any time soon.

Whether here in ILP or in your neighborhood, the need to discuss all of the “how shall we live?” questions is given short shrift in favor of who’s version of God, or secular promises, or … will reduce our fear. The need to feel superior is most often driven by insecurities, and we apparently have a lot of those today.

6

11.26.06.1685

I am in full agreement with that assessment. I was going to post something about Xunzian’s and Tristan’s comment, but you’ve summed it up even further. I think what the big point I wanted to make was that there are people who think like that and whatever means can be taken to disprove their superiority over others should be taken.
As I’ve said, “this mentality is grossly erroneous and should be eliminated.” Given time, we, as human beings, may see a future where humanity has evolved to a point of conciousness where the need to outshine others becomes pointless.

I think what’s more interesting is the reversal of statistics that you’ve pointed out; that the lesser is better than the greater due to exclusivism. It is metaphorical, as trying to say that “Roman Catholicism may have the largest numbers, but that’s because they’re all sheep who don’t know what the real truth is.” Of course I’m not advocating that, but that’s how it would work out. However, this point, as you’ve adequately explained tent, is yet another point of proof that shows one cannot rely on statistics.

I should have labeled this thread: Reasons Statistics Are Bullshit When Concerning Religion, but that’s kind of long.

7

What religion are we discussing here?

8

What about the new Jedi religion trend?

9

Christianity is dying, the increasing divisions between liberals and conservatives, and the subsequent emergence of a ridiculous number of new-era sects who are trying to preserve it’s far-fetched and irrelevant belief system in a pagan-based modern-day society show that it is.

10

I doubt that humanity, as Sage very optimisically stipulated, will ever reach a point where the need to outshine others is gone. It’s in our blood. Not only is it done to Who has the power and prestige is very important in evolutionary terms and so we will always be trying to get power and lord it over others. There’s more to it than that obviously, but that’s not the topic of this thread.

I think that the ‘superiority’ Christians feel has more to do with the dominance of Western thought in the world than anything else. Although most groups of people united by religion tend to see themselves as the ‘chosen’ people who have picked the ‘right’ belief, it is particularly pronounced in Christianity becuase those from Christian backgrounds and from traditionally Christian nations that have the power in society. Why are Christians numerically superior? Because they have won the wars. If the Hindus had decided to conquer Africa and the Americas there would be a different demographic.

I don’t neccessarily think that the superiority Christians feel is all down to hot-headed arrogance. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that Western civilization thinks itself to be naturally superior to the rest of the world. And since they have the power, the ‘fact’ of superiority is reinforced.

11

11.26.06.1689

It was a gesture of wishful thinking. I am equally pessimistic as I am optimistic at times on certain things. While I would love to hold the ideal that we could one day find ourselves in a civilization that Gene Roddenberry once imagined, logic dictates this to be an improbability given that there will seem to always be those who seek power and control over others.

That is an interesting, and yet so obviously clear, observation. Just as you said with Hinduism, it really doesn’t matter which religion it is, only which one that has conquered the most. If the Japanese were allowed to occupy as much territory (or more) during WWII, perhaps we would have many more Shinto practitioners today.

Yes… and that’s the irony of it all isn’t it? :laughing:

Fluch! Ich vergaß über dieses! :laughing:

The Jedi one of course… which were you thinking we were discussing? :slight_smile:

12

I don’t know, that’s why I asked…

The Jedi one!? I guess I should probably do some research before I begin to think there’s a religion that came from the imagination of George Lucas. If so I think I’ll call TBS and see if that’s something to laugh about.

Oh just found this, “Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to sorrow.” Someone of the “jedi religion”. But they stole this line from the end of Final Fantasy 9, and I’m very upset now… :frowning:

13

11.26.06.1691

Did the zephyr of sarcasm simply swish right by your face?

Really Club, if I wanted to take the Jedi “trend belief” seriously, you would have known it a lot sooner. Now to take your question seriously, this thread is not about any one religion, although I did enough in my second post to make a point about certain kinds of “Christians” who talk of superiority. Naturally, that was merely an example to the overall point which targets persons of all beliefs. So to answer your question, we’re talking about all religions. That is, except for Scientology and Rastafari… and various others that I will not waste my fingers typing out.

14

delete, stupid double post…

15

Yep it did. I guess I’ve mistaken you sage, you’re not as out there as I thought.

Well, I need to get to bed here. But I did read some of your first two posts. I feel they could be shortened if you weren’t talking to yourself as if you were the dali lama. However, I see no point in ranking religions in any shape or form because of the masses. Islam’s are basically forced, so that’s not exactly fair. But I don’t really care. These statistics don’t mean squat actually. I don’t care if Baptist, what I am, is ranked number 1 or not. That doesn’t lesson it’s validity, and you know this, otherwise we could say Christianity as a whole is true because over 2 billion believe in it, and that’s absurd.

16

Actually, Christianity is growing faster than the current world population. Reports of it’s impending death are therefore spurious. It’s decline in western countries is more than offset by it’s growth elsewhere.

And Sage, the problem with your position is that most Christians will comfortably recognize other denominations as part of the same body of believers and they hold to the same creed. But as you’re on a quest to reduce the number of Christians, I’ll help you out a little. Catholics can be divided up into Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits. Heck you might go further, and count only the clergy since they might be considered the only true believers. But why stop there? Why not only count clergy who have red hair and were born on a Tuesday? That was you can conclusively prove that the number of real Christians is only 2,164! Does that make you feel better?

You can choose to split them up into more manageable chunks, but the truth is that they stand together. I agree with your first point that just because Christianity is popular doesn’t mean it is correct. But it’s a heck of a lot more significant to the world than agnosticism.

17

Although it can be stated that the statistical enumeration of individuals plays into the mentality of “superiority”, it cannot be summed up as necessary affirmation of truth, which others have already pointed out.

Religious membership, like any other socio-cultural activity goes through changes, along generational and political shifts.

Case in point, Taoism was once the largest “membership” religion in China, but under several of the Emperors, and later Mao, became feared for its influence upon the “masses”, and attempts were made, actively, to reduce its control. Mao Tse Tung being the most prodigious of dissentors, marched out the Red Army to burn down “any and all” Taoist “strongholds” very early in his career as owner of China.

Christianity will not perish, although likely it will change to meet new pressures. Even the church realises that adaptability is necessary for a socially organised entity such as faith.

As much as the moronic Islamists would like to believe that they can take the world stage of faith, the greater their numbers grow, the pendulum begins to swing against them. As we see the current trend with people seeking to bring down the “establishment” of Christianity, so to will all other faiths face the same problem.

As always, another indicator of the status quo.

18

11.27.06.1697

What’s that Club? You mean me being agnostic isn’t shocking enough for you? LOL!

Wow Club… that hurt, and I’m not even Buddhist. Really though, if you were going to say something about my posts, it would have been best to read all of it. Otherwise, just don’t reply to them.

Then you don’t have anything to worry about… besides, I’ll be very frank with you about something. A person’s worth in the world is not found in the strength of their faith or the validity of their belief (however credible they may think of it to be), but how that person contributes to society. Concordantly, I don’t care what religion you practice as long as you keep your eye on the ball and stay on topic on this site. However, you’ve had some problems with that when dealing with atheism but we’re not going to talk about that in this thread. Just a reminder; when you’re musing on a subject, don’t involve a topic that will pervert the discussion in a new direction. An example of this would be you going into a philosophy thread and bringing up Jesus… that takes the discussion in a whole new direction.

Just some free advice… but somehow I feel you’d hate to recieve that from someone who doesn’t believe what you believe.

Pardon, Ned? I think you’ve mistaken my position and confused the point. Besides, you left out Opus Dei. And I don’t think we have to go that far, but if that’s your cup of tea you’re welcome to it. If I didn’t know any better, I’d say you were trying to make me out as a Nazi with all that super-exclusivity crap.

Regardless, I’m sure that Christians recognize other denominations… most anyway; but there are those differences that separate you. Surely you don’t believe that you can only talk to Jesus through a priest, yes? I doubt even Club thinks so.

So before you chose to pour gas on the flames of this discussion, please keep it universal. I’d like to discuss all religions and not make this yet another one of those “Christians are being persecuted again” threads.

19

Well sage, sorry if that hurt. But you are in no position to talk about others egos. I think you know that, and I don’t think you want my advice.

I enjoy good advice like a cup of tea, it’s nice. I agree, a persons worth isn’t. But if no correct religion exists, and life has no purpose, the only worth you can have is worth to people who won’t be worth anything eventually (as on an atheistic stance). Self worth just comes and goes, depends on what kind of day your having I guess. But if you believe a God exists and that you are worth something to it, you can feel pretty good for the rest of your days, even though you may not be worth anything to anyone else.

The worth only comes from those who believe what you do is worthy.

But back to what you said I don’t care for advice, especially since I view advice as an opinion. If it helps me I’ll take it, if not I’ll discard it. I don’t care what you believe, advice is advice. I don’t know what you’ve made me out to be in your head, but it’s not a good picture. I guess I’ll need to quit being so blunt with my thoughts and water them down a bit, does that sound like good advice to myself?

I’ll try to be less blunt about my thoughts from now on. And I guess that will be nicer and less hurtful. But I do ask for the same? Is that possible? For my religion to be respected, as I have much faith in it? I’m offended all the time by misconceptions on my belief, and strawmans, etc. I just like to give people back what they dish out. I mean I truly find atheism a horrible and stupid way to live, but I’m supposed to hide this and talk about it behind your back. It’s just not my character, I’m very truthful, I’m an honest person.

20

No, I think your position came through loud and clear. But keep talking out both sides of your mouth if you find it more comfortable.

I doubt any Roman Catholics think so either. Maybe you could show me where RC doctrine says that “you can only talk to Jesus through a priest”. You should familiarize yourself with Christian denominations before you start making silly statements about them. I’m sure there will be a priest in your local church who can educate you if you are interested.

OK. In the spirit of universality, well why don’t we just make this another “Sage doesn’t know his ass from his elbow” thread? Would that be better?