Omar mentioned Marshall McLuhan in an answer to Tentative and having looked into what his objection was, I found that it could be a question we might want to debate. My translation of the thesis of McLuhan is broken down into two sentences. Have a read and tell me what you think.
This is something that we experience regularly, any time we meet someone who personifies his message, he becomes the message. This is quite true of religious figures and also to a certain degree of political figures. That is why there are high expectations made on someone who wants to change the world – even if the change is only to be implemented locally. Expectation can, however, become requirements that are pontifical and only achievable by saints. The question is, are saints only an overblown projection of an idea of perfection, or are saints real people who could, in the real world, personify their message of faith, love and hope?
This is also something that I find is commonplace. Whilst much religion is at a level described above, it seems to me that much is to be found by searching and thinking – something which Jesus and virtually all religious figures told their disciples to do. Unfortunately, this advice doesn’t seem to be followed as much as the tendency to revere the person. The reverence of Christ finally led to his being put on a pedestal so high that the idea of “following†him became ridiculous, although that is what he told people to do.
Do religious people here believe that more concentration on the content could lead us places, or is there a consensus that reverence of the person is more important?
I believe the spreading His Word is what God wants us to do first. We owe all our thanks to the Lord making these things possible. While we should have no other gods before Him, witnessing for God is our main goal as I see it. Jesus set the standard, we have to carry it out. The thing Christians forget is we have the same abilities as Jesus through God’s intervention.
I believe this very highly. But a strong faith with a concrete connection in God is necessary for this to happen. I’m sure there has been people through time who have achieved this level of spirituality to perform what could be cited as ‘miracles’. This is not to say it was done to squander God’s abilities, rather to carry out His Will. All things are possible through God.
I’m sure due to the experiences I’ve had. seeing the faces of people who have testified about the miracles they have witnessed. Seeing how The Holy Spirit has moved through people and changed their lives. For me that is ‘empirical’ evidence where God is concerned, where you would believe of the vacuum of space, even though you have never first hand experienced it. You have faith that what you have heard from whatever source you believe in that it is there.
Tortoise, would you not agree there are things in this universe you have faith in exists from books, scientists, TV or whatever that you yourself have not personally experienced? Yet, you still believe those things exist. The same thing applies for me where God is concerned. The difference is I have opened myself to the possibility to God, where you have not. Once you have experienced the things I have spiritually, you shut down any avenue of finding the things I believe in by not trying to find out for yourself. Just asking me questions and doubting what I have to say is not looking…it’s being cynical. God is a hands-on experience. Once you apply faith in truly seeking Him out, only then will you have the chance of knowing. To put it metaphorically, ‘you have to get your hands dirty to plant a seed to see the flower’.
McLuhan’s “The medium is the massage” statement was another attempt to jar people awake. We most often never question the structure, which is assumed, and mistake it for the content. There are other metaphorical statements that attempt to show the difference. The man who goes to a restaurant and eats the menu instead of the meal.
Tao Te Ching says much the same thing in chapter 53… “The way is broad and smooth, but people delight in tortuous paths.”
I agree that awareness of the message compels us to live the message and forego the packaging. Does one need to be a saint? I don’t think so, but a saint has obviously attempted to be the message.
I think it is interesting that so much discussion is about Christ is-isn’t, and so little is about our poor attempts to be Christ-like. As a hard agnostic, my views of what is religion are fairly well known, but those views in no way obscures my understanding of what Jesus of Nazareth asked of us. Granted, I am the worst example of living the message, whether of Jesus, or of any of those who brought the same message, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand it.
Perhaps the greatest gift of sentience is our ability to create symbols in the form of language. It is also possible that it is our greatest curse. We become dazzled by our symbols and look to the idols we create instead of living what they represent.
A casual look at the thread titles in this forum answers that question. It is as if the message brought is irrelevent and all that is important is proving the is-isn’t arguments.
To be instead of being as requires disciplined introspection. Looking beyond the medium and it’s idols is the first step.
Spreading the Word is right by me, but what is that Word? Is it merely the words and letters of the Bible, in whatever language or translation we choose or need? Or is the Word more, considering that in Aramaic Word, Name, Reputation, Sound etc. all come from the same root. I have had several experiences of people spreading a “Word†but not actually disseminating it like seed, or like light, or like a melody but rather spooning it to people like baby-food.
I was at a funeral today of a son of one of my employees who died of Leukaemia at the age of 32. The Parents, dear people, are members of an evangelical Church and apparently were strengthened by the support they had had from the Pastor who held the funeral service. He kept on starting at the word of the Bible but broke away on numerous occasions to tell stories of the deathbed conversions of people with this disease, including the unfortunate young man we had come to bury. It even went so far that he told the story that was behind the song “Tie a yellow ribbon around the old oak tree!†This made the loss of the family appear like a farewell before a long trip. I wonder if it really had anything to do with “the Word†that Christ came to spread.
Hi Tentative,
Yes, the by-ways and detours. Human beings seem to have a talent for deviating, making their lives difficult and “tortuous†- and then they go on to say how unfair life has been to them. I was thinking at the funeral I mentioned above whether the Pastor was listening to himself quoting Scriptures saying that God was grim and daunting, then going on to say he was friendly and loving. In reality that begs a look at what Christ said, “your Father in Heaven causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjustâ€. It is similar to the saying in the Tao te Ching saying that “Heaven and earth do not act from any wish to be benevolent†nor do they act from any wish to be unkind.
What occurred to me was how long the service was, how many words had been spoken and how little really had to be said. It is as though the many words were trying to hide that fact. Christ said that we shouldn’t babble, thinking that the more we speak the better we will be heard. I think that is as good an example of warning against “eating the menu” as you can find.
I think that saints are the message in flesh and blood, but Jesus says that they are not aware of it. When did we do this or that, they ask. It is this that Anthony de Mello points to in his book awareness (near the end) with a number of examples where people are “ruined†by well-meaning do-gooders who don’t change anything except the perception of people through their moralising issues. He gives the example from a Fellini film, where very young boys pay a whore to strip off and dance for them, whilst they giggle away at this completely new sight. A young novice comes along and runs over telling them how evil it is what the whore and they are doing. Their (Eden-like) innocence has been lost by this intervention. He asks what we are doing ourselves to make our children conditioned to certain behaviour patterns instead of being simply authentic and aware – and teaching them to be the same. That would be saintly to me.
This in actual fact agrees with what I meant above. I have said to you in the past that I wish some of the Christians I know could have the kind of understanding of the message of the Bible that you (and other “non-christiansâ€) have displayed. None of us reach the levels of sainthood (or heroism) that are often projected onto people. These people have often said themselves that they had problems with their image – because that is all it often is, an image, which is in effect an idol.
It is the ability to break away from such images and turning our hand to living the message that needs to be awakened, at least in as much as we don’t condition our children the way we were conditioned. Unfortunately, that seems to be what many people understand as being “traditionâ€. That is why we fail to get beyond those symbols and mediums and to disciplined introspection.
I believe it did have something to do with it. When I had cited ‘The Word’, I should have been less abiguous and gave better reference concerning it. I forget these posts aren’t just read by the person it was inteneded. I took it for granted that since you regard yourself as a Christian, I should have expounded on that term for the sake of others may not be.
I say this because they know it’s not a permanent separation and that the scriptures promise we will all go home to God being saved in Christ. Where we will miss the physical essence after a loved one’s death, the spiritual essence is what we long to be in the presence of.
