if people are “dying on your behalf” without you asking them to do anything does that make you insensitive when you criticize them for doing so?
i say criticize for lack of a better word. not harsh criticism.
Well, I think it is very important to seperate the Military from the Government. Especially the lower rungs of the military.
I think a lot of this is part of the legacy of Viet Nam, where there was a lot of unwarrented aggression towards soldiers as well as the administration. While that rhetoric has been by-and-large removed and most of it is directed towards either the high-end brass or the Administration, people looking to shield the administration from criticism can still play the foul card due to that legacy.
When you say ‘criticize them for doing so,’ do you mean you criticize them for dying on your behalf, or you criticize them for engaging in military action that leads to their death?
I got both hate and love for my time served in the Military. I cared less.
volunteering for military action.
i dont mean vietnam either. its harder to blame them because of the draft. though i would rather go to prison than fight in a war.
im not saying hate. i dont hate the military. i just dont think youre fighting for me. and i dont like when people say that youre respsonsible for my safety or my standards of living. i simply dont agree. if this country went down the tubes id leave in a heartbeat. the ideals that create the countries environment arent responsible for the people inside it i dont think. its the same line of thinking that leads me to believe that you cant stereotype the peoples of a country based on how the leaders are acting.
to try to give you a sense of what i mean. it could be said that its like saying… your military service was more or less pointless and that the generals were responsible for defending the country. you had no part in defending anyone. in that case youd probably say fuck them.
maybe i should ask to what extent are we responsible for other peoples actions?
Unfortunately after you’re enlisted you don’t have a choice whether to fight or not. For these poor souls I feel it would be unkind to criticize them.
For those who volunteer after a conflict has been started there is just cause to be critical of them if the fight they volunteered for was unjust. However, as can be seen in the recent case with the war against Iraq, the information made available at the start of the war would have let some people think the war was just, when clearly it was predicated on a lie.
Far better I believe to reserve your criticism for the people responsible for the war, i.e. political leaders and high level military.
then how do address the accusation that theyre dying for my freedom?
tell people that no… theyre fighting an unjust war for money hungry politicians?
i can understand that… but still i still dont understand the belief that someone can die for me despite the fact that i havent voted for the leader dont support the war and would never ask someone to fight for anyone.
they die for your right to complain about the war. they don’t personally give a rat’s ass about you personally (they don’t know you exist), they don’t care about your left wing politics. most probably do not consciously think of fighting for anything but staying alive.
it’s like when you go begging to the welfare office. the left wing politicians steal money from the evil dispicable “rich” - everyone who earns a penny pays taxes- to give to those that they feel are living in poverty. does the worker give his blood, sweat, tears and hard work to that bum? hell no. but the guilt ridden left-wing politician feels so much better knowing that he has enslaved all workers against their will to “benefit” the poor…
but, but the poor don’t pay taxes! look at your paycheck. even if it is for 1 penny. you pay a percentage in taxes. it is called withholding. but, but the poor get a refund… and for the year that your money is stolen by the government, you lose interest on it. that’s double theft.
-Imp
Superman p.Imp to the rescue!
-Thirst
how can you die for a belief or idealogy. no one dies for communism or capitalism i doubt they die for rights. they die for a standard of living thats insured through a social system. they die to keep the status quo despite the fact that you can easily create another one. i can understand if theyre defending me from maurading invaders that are literally attacking everyone but i dont see how you can die for rights and liberties. theyre just pretend representations of what we live for. its like dying for god. you cant… he doesnt exist.
just like the pretend utopia communists want to die for… it doesn’t exist.
-Imp
Before I can criticize the millitary I need to know why they fight. many people enlist durring wartime because they feel a threat, and they feel the need to protect their loved ones.
Those who enlist outside of war normally do so for personal gain. Be it advanced training, schooling, or pension. But regardless they all have a reason to do so.
I find that I cannot critacize the millitary because regardless of their motives they can only follow orders. Individuals dont have a choice.
You can say that the generals have a choice, but in truth they are given tasks to acomplish and can only choose how. If they wish they can opt out but this could jepordise there ability to choose.
The polaticians are the ones assigning the primary goals to the millitary. so by conciquence they could be to blame, However even they are flawed humans with their own motives and limits.
One could question their compitince but they were not trained in war or in tactics so stupid choices are to be expected. It is their motives that Must be drawn in question, Why are They fighting, What do They gain Personally from this conflict.
This is probablly an american site so I’ll say this as a personal statement. In canada we generally see our leaders as somewhat incompident, we accept this as well as the fact that if we wish to see something in the world we must first exibit this ourselves, since our leaders will not.
In my humble oppinion anyways.
Peace
I think your response should be determined by how confrontational you want to be. Clearly from your pov the above statement is untrue. A diplomatic response might be to subtly correct them by saying, “they’re dying for my country, not my freedom.”
I’m starting to think that maybe Impenitent is a closet communist. All his whining about the left wing is starting to read like a program of propaganda misdirection.
do you pay the homeless dude that washes your window without your permission? i don’t. it was unsolicited therefore nothing should be expected. same goes for those ‘dying on your behald.’ they volunteered! the gov’t asks them too though. therefore the gov’t should thank them. and they get paid and benefits and pensions and training and cool little berets and guns. what more can they expect?!
sometimes i view the military as a ‘high risk occupation.’ kinda sounds lame at first, but how many people view the military as an occupation in the first place? not many. they see it as ‘service.’ like ‘community service.’ guess what, community service just started sending you a paycheck, putting you through school, and letting you shoot people. sweet! it IS an occupation. it also results in a lot of deaths. so it’s a high risk occupation. like coal mining used to be. lots of people die in the mines but we didn’t give them a 21 gun salute. all they got was mistaken for african americans and dead canary pets. no respect.
this isn’t even getting into the political aspect of the question about whether or not they are actually dying to defend us or dying because they are on the offensive. my attitude would be much different if we are actually in a defensive mode versus out there picking fights.
every soldier is responsible for his actions. they have every right to not follow orders. theyll be punished yes… they might discharged but when it comes to following orders saying “someone told me to do it” wont cut ever. if only i could remember the name of the war trials after wwII… damnit
fine… then im living it up for the sake of freedom. if it wasnt for me being alive in a free state there wouldnt be one… hooray for me. i saved everyones freedom.
its a standard. its subjective. it means nothing to the people living in a society. communist, islamic radicals, capitalist it could all very well mean you live the same exact way. dying for freedom is like dying for expensive chocolate cheese cake or anal sex.
that’s right. but you gotta believe in expensive cake and anal sex.
-Imp
every soldier is responsible for his actions. they have every right to not follow orders. theyll be punished yes… they might discharged but when it comes to following orders saying “someone told me to do it” wont cut ever. if only i could remember the name of the war trials after wwII… damnit
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If you are referring to the genniva convention I am well aware. that particular statement referred to the mistreatment of human rights and how each soilder was responsible for his own actions there to.
but as for regular orders like occupy this city or subdue these insurgents. to disobay orders is like standing infront of a 1/2 ton truck to protest fuel consumption, it’s just a pointless waste.
As for those who do defey human rights knowing this. I can say nothing but they accepted their fate as soon as they did so.