Do we ever truly experience what we want from one another, love ~ the kind of love we want to feel, or are we too busy with narcissism and/or mental masturbation to truly experience the other person.
Are there exquisite moments of family, friends, lovers and other experiences, where even through the haze we do touch each other, or something of a truth is felt.
What happens to all those moments? Are they taken within the soul and become the bliss of nirvana, why are we driven to reach these moments [if driven is the right word], is this search what eventually finds that ‘the kingdom of heaven is within‘?
Is all that a metaphor, for the journey of consciousness?
On another level, does this also represent the passion of life; is it better [or is there no difference] to find a passion in life that may encompass a tragedy or even death of the lovers, or to live a mediocre life to its natural end? What’s going to happen, what is that mediocre life striving to achieve when either way it wont be living for ever.
For me, no. The most exquisite delights to me are the stars, the moon tucked into the pocket of the sky, the raging ocean and the raging wind and rain, wonderful conversations with friends, reading a book which turns one on to life and to knowledge not known before…among many others. I personally do not look on these things as a vanity.
Vanity to me comprises what is superficial - like always looking at one’s self in the mirror in total admiration of one’s self or in thinking that one is the most intelligent person, the best mother in the world. Dolrian Gray had a special kind of superfician vanity as did his sidekick - can’t remember his name. The way in which we view certain of our physical possessions is vanity to me also. …in the way in which we define WHO we are by WHAT WE HAVE. To me, THAT is vanity…but I suppose to one, their brand new shiny red car can be to them their exquisite delight…but possesions to me are not and the way in which we define ourselves and at the same time need to put others down because of that is vanity.
That would depend on the individual, don’t you think amorphos? Perhaps if we are looking for that kind of love which enriches and enhances our life, moves us, causes us to grow, that we can feel grateful for - we will experience it. I’m not so sure that we are capable of experiencing something which is not a part of us already or which we do not desire.
That would depend on the individual too. If that person is indeed narcissistic and wants only to, in all ways, satisfy his/her own needs and desires and to be served and paid attention to, then a real love kind of love cannot be known or experienced - only a selfish, egoistical kind of self-love and orgiastic experience may be felt. But who knows…these are only my musings.
Yes indeed - there are…there have to be. We are humans and as humans we have spirits…we want to be touched, to feel touched (non-physically speaking in this regard). That spiritual kind of moment of love takes over that kind of intuition which suddenly opens us up and we recognize who we are in relation to the other and that we love. It’s like we come to flow through an epiphany moment. I’m not so sure though if the pathological narcissist is capable of experiencing this…but I may be wrong.
I think that those moments become a part of who we are. They change and transform us, they inspire us, they allow us to live in gratitude for what is or what was. Yes, they do live in memory so live in the past but at the same time they are alive in the present. That might not be what you were looking for.
I suppose that it is part of the ‘kingdom of heaven’ which Christ spoke about. The kingdom of heaven is in the PRESENT MOMENTS when we love, when we care for one another, all of us, that agape kind of love, when we feel joy and gratitude for being alive and pass that on…
It’s a metaphor for the living moment which is part of the process of awaking consciousness. We are always waking up, because we may not ever be totally awake, except perhaps for certain contemplative moments…perhaps…only perhaps…
How can one experience NO difference in struggling and striving to live a passionate life, to find and to experience what for them becomes their destiny or their raison de etre - as opposed to living what in actuality may be viewed as a mediocre life? Of course, one must realize that to another that life may not be so mediocre - but to you or to me or to someone else, it is flat and uninspiring and boring. We each march to a different drummer (can’t remember who said that) and we each take the path NOT TAKEN or one which everyone takes.
Sure, I’d go with that. I was also thinking of ultimate outcomes and maybe an un-teleology which somehow produces the ‘magic’ that makes things happen.
I was wondering if maybe we relive those moments as our ‘personal bliss’ - so to say, as an experience of eternity in a moment. We’d recognise the unknown by the known and by the experienced. Something like the ‘Sahu’ [Egyptian faculty of the soul] or over-soul, where the collection of all our incarnations become one in their divine form.
In that sense the collection of joys and other experiences, would form something similar in experiential terms both for us and others.
Then of course there is the contrary question, if we only have this one life then the moments we find are the only real things we can grasp even if for a moment!
I would hate to believe in the former only to miss out on the latter, no?
…and yet here we can ask if they are connected regardless.
There is enough crap in the world and yet most religions reject most joys, considering them to be a vanity or a duality. Perhaps there is a balance to be found in holding out ones arms and embracing nature and all we are, to make utility of our minds and bodies without there being anything wrong with that. Naturally hedonism would not be that balance, but neither would chastity be so.
Agreed about possessions!
Here we disagree, I have great faith that we can find entirely new delights and experiences along with new ways to see them.
Consider the infant consciousness receiving a-priory information, is that not mostly new experiences it doesn’t have within its constitution? Surely this pertains to a magic throughout our lives irrespective of religious concerns, it’s the same from an atheist perspective, possibly even more so.
Are they? Have you never touched anything outside of your own experience, or is there nearly always a tactile element to your experience of the world. I cannot accept that we live in a bubble, that doesn’t make any sense weather or not we take the materialistic or spiritual line of inquiry. If consciousness is purely neuronal, then it is physically connected to the rest of the brain and its inputs, then to all its instruments ‘touch’.
Indeed.
As to the latter part, I had wondered about this too, an unshared love [like rape etc] is mostly or purely internal. The other party is simply being used as an instrument of masturbation ~ if you’ll excuse my terms.
Perhaps if there is anything about our experiences that continues, its that which becomes the innate elements of the soul.
I think new moments contain the greater level of awareness, or can do.
Contemplation is reliving an old moment continually refreshed perhaps, though there are many kinds. I suppose it all comes down to what we think is nirvana? Though most would say nirvana is not a subjective experience imho.
How can one experience NO difference in struggling and striving to live a passionate life, to find and to experience what for them becomes their destiny or their raison de etre - as opposed to living what in
Hmm in balance perhaps one passion should not judge another, each life is its own.
…but people have always judged a different life, sometimes rightly so because it is damaging to others, but 9x out of10 judgement is misguided. Especially with religion, because that draws a blanket philosophy, and sometimes one thing has to be lost to gain another, and there is no way to regain what is to be lost by remaining within its sphere.
I think that some relationships are good examples of this. If the purpose of the relationship is none other than the experience of it in itself in the NOW, without regard to a future or any kind of result/conclusion - then that can also produce a certain kind of magic which can make things happen. But I suppose that “the experience of it in itself” makes it teleological. How about evolution? If there really is no god who designed all of this with a purpose - then we would have to say that the whole process of creation and the universe is a random thing - no? Wow, talk about random.
I think that we LIVE those moments in the MOMENT and they ARE our personal bliss - and then remembering them, we can flow back into those blissful moments. lol - how redundant is that?! I sort of intuit that “eternity” can only be experienced in the present moment - and that is where the magic takes place.
But can we, in actuality, know all of our incarnations, that is, if we’ve lived for? Or can we only experience them in a subconscious way as a part of who we are NOW? Maybe i’m misunderstanding you here.
You’re so deep. Perhaps somewhat similar in “nature” but not totally identical. Being that we are all human beings with similar psyches - but with different experiences/personalities and depths to us - it would end in similar. Maybe you can explain this to me.
But wouldn’t you say that we all have to define what is “real” or meaningful to us individually? At least for myself, even if I could be certain that this was my only life to live, I might probably more or less live it in the same way. Why - because living it in any other way might be harmful to both myself and others - and being that these are are only moments… At the same time, my life and those who people it, would probably become more precious to me - more “real”. Many of us do not, in actuality, live lives which are so “real” - they’re more like a dream-like state.
If I’m understanding you, I think that the most important thing IS to live in the moment. Would it really matter - if we are capable of doing that - how many lives we have? If we can’t live in the present moment how “real” are the ones we miss? Did that make sense? It does to me.
Yes, there is a lot of crap in the world and there’s also a lot of meaningful things in the world.
Hmm…I don’t know much about “most religions” and perhaps many of them do reject most joys but perhaps you need to define what YOU mean by joy? Are you speaking in terms of a hedonistic life where one just goes in search of happiness for him/her self always no matter what the cost to others? Or are you speaking of “real” pure joy which can be experienced as a deep deep deep contentment - a deeper kind of inner happiness. Real joy is not a vanity - it just bubbles up like a geiser. It isn’t necessarily sought after but it can be found in a meaningful moment. That is not vanity - but I think it is above human while at the same time being fully human. Ah, let’s not get carried away here. But I think you get what I’m saying here, Amorphos.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the former. At the same time, ought we not to use reason along with our natural human emotions? Are we to make excuses for our emotions, when we’ve hurt or destroyed others in the name of our humanity?
I think that self-awareness would pawn hedonism.
Hmmm…okay, I’m wrong here, I suppose. Of course we are capable of experencing things which we haven’t before - just as long as we are open to them and ready for that experience. And I did say “desire”. I don’t know - somehow at the same time, I also think that my statement above holds as true. I think this is a case of the individual person. There are always new ways in which to “see” - its called changing our perspective. It’s very important within relationships, philosophy, the sciences. lol
You need to give me an example of the infant receiving a-priory information. I’m not seeing this. An infant?
Of course, I have. It’s called a new experience. We have many ongoing ones. At the same time, I wonder - do we really have many “new” - completely foreign and fresh and new ones or are they simply reflections of old ones - with different surroundings? Though they certainly feel like new. What I perceive and sensate through my sense of touch is capable of bringing me from the mundane to the sublime. We only live in a bubble when we are afraid to be fully human and when we are afraid to touch upon that deeper, spiritual side of ourselves waiting within to be made known to us.
I don’t know if consciousness is purely neuronal - but let’s say that it is; and the jury is still out about that. Even so, it is a mystical magical thing capable of bringing us to the heights. Look at what consciousness has caused! Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Let’s not delude ourselves here. Rape has absolutely nothing to do with “real” love. It has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of love - platonic, romantic, agape… It has only to do with seeking control and power over someone. And I do not think that I would compare rape with masturbation. Rape is capable of causing great harm and destroying a human life and the human psyche. Masturbation might lead to an addiction - anything which is “overdone” can lead to an addiction but it may also act as a catharsis. Rape, on the other hand, is a form of self-hate and extreme weakness…ad continuum.
Hmmm…and why would that be? Because we are experiencing them in the HERE AND NOW?
Isn’t the greatest level of awareness within the flowing moment when we are seeing, feeling, intuiting within the heights and the depths to which our humanity can take us?
Hmmm…I’m not so sure of that…but I may be wrong. Contemplation means “with” “time” so it is an experience within the now. Maybe you’re thinking of meditation. We can relive moments and see them fresh and new as if for the first time…but wouldn’t that be more self-awareness and wisdom?
What is nirvana - the height of an experience of heaven or something like that?
Perhaps you are right here. At the same time, one ought to judge one’s own passion, no? Be responsible for self? Be the master of one’s own passions and not its slave - though, truth to tell that is not always such an easy thing nor a fun thing. Hedonism mus be balanced or as Orson Wells said, I think, 'what we need is a new kind of hedonism". I think it was him who said that.
Why would you say that 9 out 10 times that judgment is misquided? It may be guided by wisdom and experience and a caring for others. Is that so misguided?
I do agree with you though that at times we have to sacrifice something in order to gain something else.
Well, I am not so sure of that. That would simply depend on how one views something. But maybe you’re right - but something is perhaps capable of being regained - no? Something that became lost within ourselves which must be looked at before we are capable of accepting and appreciating that which is to be gained. I think it’s called “making lemonade out of lemons” though we don’t always view things as so much lemon. lol. Okay I’m ranting here. That’s it.
Sharing and exchanging the stuff that life is made of is the most interesting thing…sharing star stuff with one another (universally speaking that is).
I think one may also find a magic in the lack of results, not just in the now but in the lack of assumed ends ~ don’t we all foresee our demise as in relationships too! Because we belong to such deterministic teleology we assume this ‘n’ that must happen, but all I see is a whirlwind where consciousness and quantum particles with a lack of spatial locations conspire to form who and what we are. In other words; its all kinda hanging in the air, nothing is formed until the folds of the paper [something else] occur, and they may not be deterministic simply because they don’t belong to the same materialistic system!
What if you throw all those particulars into infinity? Now is such a finite moment which eternity does not know.
I’d see it more as a simple combination of forms. Knowledge is irrelevant.
No I think you are onto it here, consider the entire human condition as portrayed in a void, an emptiness that contains it all. So sure we individualised entities would gather our universal attributes from that.
Good points! Either way everything is equally precious and meaningless.
Sure it makes sense, but we are creatures of past, present and future, why not embrace it all.
Oh I am getting as carried away as the geyser, . No I don’t think a hedonistic lifestyle is what I mean here, more something precious, and that cannot be found in the hedonistic lifestyle which is in the end so vacuous.
Agreed. Emotions with or without reason can become demeaning to the human condition.
I agree, what we have [as in your former statement] is composite with what we may achieve, it’s a kind of evolving cycle perhaps.
Indeed like the calf which stand upon its feet and ‘knows’ to avoid predators and to keep with its own kind. I cant see any way in which a newborn can know all that stuff within a few minutes, the a-priory info is built-in so to speak ~ evolutionary. I think we actually agree here but are using different terms.
I absolutely agree.
I thought I had already agreed with that? Please excuse my failure in communication. Though I don’t think its just about power, many aspects of relationships include such things ~ at least to the unwise.
Maybe, but isn’t there something of the unknown future with respect to the now in all of that?
Simply ‘bliss‘. not a place as such but a state of mind without duality and conflict.
Sure passion is about a balance, I wouldn’t like to place it anywhere else ~ or one gets stuck in it, right!
‘judge not for though shall be judged thyself’ ~ is what I meant. Guilt justice and iniquity are proportional!
or in thinking that one is the most intelligent person, the best mother in the world. Dolrian Gray had a special kind of superfician vanity as did his sidekick - can’t remember his name. The way in which we view certain of our physical possessions is vanity to me also. …in the way in which we define WHO we are by WHAT WE HAVE. To me, THAT is vanity…but I suppose to one, their brand new shiny red car can be to them their exquisite delight…but possesions to me are not and the way in which we define ourselves and at the same time need to put others down because of that is vanity.
Perhaps somewhat similar in “nature” but not totally identical. Being that we are all human beings with similar psyches - but with different experiences/personalities and depths to us - it would end in similar. Maybe you can explain this to me.
. No I don’t think a hedonistic lifestyle is what I mean here, more something precious, and that cannot be found in the hedonistic lifestyle which is in the end so vacuous.
Please excuse my failure in communication. Though I don’t think its just about power, many aspects of relationships include such things ~ at least to the unwise.