The neverending right/left civil war

Philosophy Forums Society, Government, and Economics
1

Now this is one hell of a concept (right/left wing), this is a polarizing dichotomy which causes nothing but a national “slowdown”. Once someone buys into this left wing right wing nonsense a bias is created that could very well consume the individual and blind them of all logical rational sense in favor of an ideology that ultimately is likely not even held dear in many ways to their own hearts but simply identify for the most part with a lot of the stances of either wing. What occurs however is a battle line is drawn, an enemy is provided that you can fight against and your patriotism is subtlety replaced with a cancerous ideology that you mistake for patriotism.

These Wacko wingnuts are gullible. They’re foaming at the mouth to believe anything that negatively denounces their opposition. This is simply just more fuel for their bias, which is feeding endorphins to their sacred holy war that is fighting out right in the very confines of their whole minds. Their enemy is practically completely contrived through their vision of some sort of shadowy monster that possesses human beings and rewires their brains, figuratively.

Their identities rely upon the enemy. They are the anti left wing, or anti right wing warrior. Without their opposition, they are nothing. They feed off each other, through lies and deceit, ignorance and bias. Some days they may care more than others, its exhausting to keep up with a never ending war on such a vast army that is made up in your mind. After all, these concepts are purely non existent in most if not all people as most if not all are a mixture of these ideologies. Yet certain heavy hitters in favor of either one will end up snowballing their ideological standpoint into warfare of some grandiose proportions in which their own bias blinds them into some eternal damnation of logical hell, where intelligence has forsaken them and bias consumes them, forever gnashing and weeping of teeth will be heard while they fight a war that cannot be won, when the enemy is your own contrivance.

Feel free to play the music below while reading the above. While I don’t find my post so black and white as it is portrayed, there is some truth to it, take from it what you will.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khqcjkEzShI[/youtube]

2

Not so, it is all very real:

  1. Right Wing wants Free Market, Inequality, Risk Taking, Competition, Hose the poor and weak, rising house prices. No free lunch, you have to “fight for it”, you have to “deserve it”, you have to “make a living”, you are always assumed to be “a lazy slob who wants a free ride”. But this is no longer applicable with present day technology killing ever more jobs automatically.

  2. Left wing wants Free Salaries, Cheap Rents, Equality, Collective Efforts for the common good. The free salaries are necessary because the present Technological Economy is way too rich to not give everything everyone needs for free. A Real left wing is for Technological and Scientific progress, Mind over Matter, Space colonization, changing the neural circuits of minds, Rockets to Mars, Skyscrapers on the SUN, The imagination of man as the ruling political power.

2 completely different views of the world and values.

Today there is no longer any left wing, they are all different forms of Right Wing, check out:

kunstler.com/blog/2011/03/make-no-mistake.html

especially:

"
And this blog and posters somehow are “liberal”, “left wing”. Wow, the truth is there is no longer any left, as in “progressive”, as in wanting progress. We only have 3 kinds of right wings: the real right wing in the US (which at this point is the most left, bush did give hand outs to people, the most left thing you could do today), the left of obama which is a hidden right wing, and the worst left which is this green, peak oil, overpopulation, resource scarcity left that essentially wants everyone to hate on everyone, and is therefore the most right wing.

"

Also:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174649

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174702

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174704

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174628

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174407

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174320

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174178

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174147

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=173955

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=172950

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=172704&start=0

There are many more, but you have your homework cut out for you for this weekend. Study it all very well, JHK will test you all monday morning.

3

Who is this right wing and left wing that is talked about it, is it an individual? Who? The media plays the game because it sells.

4

From:

kunstler.com/blog/2011/03/make-no-mistake.html

Anyways, back to the serious stuff, I really believe all I write, it is no joke, the joke is on all of you. Think carefully, you have all been set up and taken for a ride by resource scarcity and overpopulation myth.

It is so very easy to believe in all of that crap because it seems so linear, so logical, so simple: but there lies the deception, the current Tecnological Economy is very non-linear, with huge amplifications of production and economies of scale, that completely break down all the ideas of resource scarcity and cause and effect you experience in your everyday life, directly manipulating items with your hands and body.

In 1970, neil Young used to sing “look at mother nature on the run in the 1970”. it has always been on the run, people need to live and manipulate the environment.

  1. Left wing wants Free Salaries, Cheap Rents, Equality, Collective Efforts for the common good. The free salaries are necessary because the present Technological Economy is way too rich to not give everything everyone needs for free. A Real left wing is for Technological and Scientific progress, Mind over Matter, Space colonization, changing the neural circuits of minds, Rockets to Mars, Skyscrapers on the SUN, The imagination of man as the ruling political power.
5

I am not going to read these blogs, you’re not even addressing my points your attacking a strawman and you’re not understanding the points about this resource scarcity. The claim you’re arguing against isn’t that there is not enough food in the world to feed everyone, just that there are areas where people do not have enough food. Its not that there aren’t other resources we can utilize for fossil fuel, its that we are still highly dependent on this limited fuel source of fossil fuel and not these other resources. There is no joke on me, you’re not even arguing against my stance or their stance, whatever that is.

6

It’s not a war. It’s a contrivance.

7

Right Left dichotomy: it is mostly an “artistic” choice, an “existential” preference, an answer to boredom, the choice is essentially a choice of what religion you want to embrace, as both are essentially symbols, abstractions and man is an abstraction driven machine simply navigating pain/pleasure circuits and associating these pain pleasures very loosely with some abstractions, mostly man made pain/pleasure and assignments of abstractions that will generate said pain/pleasure (ex. laid off because you worked less than 12 hours a day which is the norm in our office, etc.):

  1. Right wing wants “Risk Taking” as an emotional roller coaster, as a way to get high, as a way to play an imaginary slot machine all day long, are you winning, are you losing, what is your status, who did you defeat today, etc. An answer to boredom, doesn’t want stability, wants constant change, constant challenges, we do need people like this to start the “startups” that will hire a few hundred here and there, they have their use. They want “incentives”, they don’t find the incentives in what they do, but in what they win, in how much they gain compared to another, the other person is always present as a comparison point, as in constant competition, competition is the constantly measuring and interacting of items between themselves so as to constantly define them, modify their behavior, the measurement is the definition of the item.

  2. Left wing wants stability, the incentive is in the simplicity in a sense, they are more geared towards collective efforts, towards large scale efforts, this is what most people really desire, we need these kinds.

Both religions think that everybody should be either one way or another, nothing further from the truth, we need both, but most people are simply naturally left wing, don’t want constant instability, risk taking, emotional narrative and roller coaster all day long, don’t get bored that easily that they need that constant high.

Now, given that a healthy economic system can use both, but the ratio is mostly 10 to 1 (or something like that), 10 stability seeking people, 1 person looking for risk taking and opening his own business. So given millions of people, it is absurd to think they can all be playing an imaginary slot machine of risk taking and incentives based on how much they gain compared to another game: it simply can’t work, there are simply not enough possibilities or opportunities for this in the real world.

A healthy economic system uses a mix of both, it can use the risk taking start up to generate new sectors, but if this doesn’t cut it, the government should start new public projects, it is that simple. There is no “one size fits all”, but the dominating economic model which is completely and totally biased towards the right wing thinks that one size fits all, either you are a risk taking, startup, your own boss and small business or you deserve to drop dead because you are not contributing to productivity or competition. This is totally false.

But the present economic model wants to pretend that everyone must be right ring, risk taking, incentive based living. This is false, also because competition in most sectors has been achieved, is saturated, you can’t really get much more competition out of most sectors, it is a diminishing return proposition, so maybe at this point the dominating mostly right wing economic model wants to propose simply slugging it out, fighting each other, war.

We have millions of now educated and connected unemployed young people in the Middle East and North Africa and also in Latin America, what are we going to do with them ? make them all go crazy and slug it out, make them start revolutions and wars ? No, we need huge large scale projects to employ millions of these, the governments worldwide must start as many as possible. Is it better to spend money on the tomahawks blowing things up in Libya or getting all those young men building apartment houses ? Is that so hard to understand ? Why do people not see this ? Is it so hard to understand that they need HOUSES and JOBs ? I never once heard anyone ever mention this in all the wars that are fought in Irak, Afghanistan and now Libya.

Another thing I was thinking is the serialized and accumulating labor processes, where the labor of many adds up into something greater than the parts. If you look at natural evolution it did just that completely by blind chance, it started out with some carbon molecules and ended up creating a thinking man, which is itself a huge accumulated and serialized effort product. A man is made up of a thousand trillion molecules all executing chemical reactions and interactions in perfect equilibrium to produce thinking minds, Mind over Matter. It is strange how an ensemble of millions of people cannot produce something greater than the parts, or has great difficulty in doing so, maybe we are still at the very beginning of the turbulent initial phase, just like natural evolution started out randomly with some carbon molecules bumping into each other.

Maybe when humanity reaches a population of thousands of trillions, just like the number of molecules in a man, and an advanced enough technology it will undergo a phase transition and know how to serialize and accumulate all labor processes to create a higher level mind, a single MIND composed of thousands of trillions of other minds.

8

This is irrelevant to the topic at hand, why are you spamming the thread with it? This isn’t about what the left wing or right wing wants.

9

Please make a Report or send me a PM if you think a Thread is being Spammed.

10

There is no two parties, there is only one party.

Ask yourself this, which party is the war party and which party is the peace party?

Neither, Barry Soetoro (AKA Barrack Obama, bought and payed for by Goldman Sachs) (or should I say the United Nations, since Soetoro signed a treaty ending National Sovereignty) invaded Pakistan (displacing millions of people), increased the war effort in Afghanistan (an additional 30 000 troops) and invaded Libya whilst winning the nobel peace prize (war is peace, freedom is slavery). The illusion of two parties is brought to you by the MSM. No matter which Republicrats you put in, WW3 between the Westerners and North Africa and the Middle East will continue.

Soetoro’s merely extrapolating tyrannical policies established during the Bush administration.

11

I like the way you think Nameta9, too abstract for an INTJ like WW3 though. You push ideas as far as they can go, to the absolute limit and beyond. You’re trying to get to the core, the essence of what it means to be a Republican and a Democrat, then mixing them with some eccentrically peculiar, idiosyncratic social brain theory. Fascinating…

12

“Keep them distracted, absorbed in our treadmill. The more they struggle, the more bread and wine we feast.”

13

Is this a conspiracy theory or an actual quote?

14

I’ll have to disagree with you on what you think was too abstract for me, it was I who provided an abstraction not easily found. Nameta’s posts are simply the parroting of typical left wing and right wing stances. Where’s the abstraction in that? This is available all over the internet.

15

Yeah you disagree, you think it was “spam” even though he only posted it once.

To be fair, I disagree too. With a lot of that rant. I don’t believe that economic model extant in the U.S. is predominantly “Right Wing.” I wish it was that partisan an institution, but I’ve never seen more than a tiny handful of politicians in office purporting to represent any wing who challenge central banking, corporate immunity, or extremely high tariffs on manufactured goods from countries in Africa and Asia that we’d rather get raw materials from so we can sell them the manufactured final products at mark-up (which, by the way, we call “free trade”). No Republicrats of either color challenge the root causes of our socio-economic disposition, they each just shout loudly about opposing approaches to treating symptoms. I never saw a party divide about buying into the reservist banking system when those banks were threatened by a flood of lawsuits, including by several state attorney’s general. I never heard a left-right dialogue about the fact that no institution in the reservist central banking system would offer us, individually or as a nation, a single scrap of paper monopoly money without extracting substantial usury and securing it against our assets to be able to foreclose and repossess at our first delay in repayment. I saw all the leading politicians from the left and right up on the dais saying confidently that it was absolutely necessary to buy a share in these banks so that they could be insulated from being sued in US courts through being partially government owned (which is the only reason half the big lenders weren’t sued into dust - all the suits were dismissed once government interest was confirmed). I didn’t hear the left-wing saying “Screw the fed and their franchise banks, they’re holding a gun to our heads over the national debt and deficit every day and displacing millions of hardworking Americans. Let them sink and we’ll buy up their assets at pennies on the dollar AFTER they fail and use those as leverage to liquidate our national debt with their parent bank.” No prominent politicians purporting to be “left” or “right” wanted to take advantage of the situation to further the interest of the average taxpaying American worker. No politician on the left or right questions whether its good fiscal policy to operate a government that claims to represent the people as a perpetual debt-servant rather than as a debt-free entity with full free will and no creditor that can quietly step in and demand national policy changes over defaults (deficits in repayment, i.e. the national deficit).

The left and right are clowns in different color clown suits keeping the public wrapped up on issues of personal interest and false dilemmas regarding treatment of symptoms of the economic policy in our society. There is no war. It’s a 3-ring-circus, and out back behind the tent the circus-master is negotiating the price for selling us all downriver.

Also, we have millions of educated connected young people unemployed in North America right now (thank you independent central banking system). I can’t fathom why “we,” by which I assume nameta9 means the U.S. or U.S. Citizens, should be “doing anything with them.” They are not pawns on our chess board. Massive projects overseas initiated for no other reason than to channel money there are wasteful. Just give them the money if that’s your point. Then explain how that addresses the millions of educated, connected young people at home who are all going to war now for lack of anything better to do and who also need houses and jobs. Although I suppose in a political environment that lends funds, originally extorted from American civilians under threat of force, to organizations actively displacing millions of those same American civilians from their homes and ancestral communities it makes perfect sense to launch a massive economic rescue program somewhere far, far away.

I enjoyed nameta9’s discussion about serialized accumulation of labor processes though. It’s relevant to the discussion, but wasn’t really explicitly tied in. It would be difficult to do so, but I think most people are able to appreciate the relevance of that train of thought to a discussion of partisan approaches to problem-solving.

16

No he posted it in his first response, as if it was relevant he posted more on what is right and what is left, which is not what the thread is about.

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18

The easiest and simplest way to improve the economic welfare of almost everyone in the USA, EU and JAPAN is to let the prices of homes and rents go as far down as possible. This would automatically increase the value of work as opposed to property owners and banks simply sponging off the weaker classes that are forced to pay to live in a place.

If rents became 400 dollars a month instead of 1,000 in the US, EU and JAPAN that would be equivalent to getting a 600 dollar a month raise. If homes cost only their real value of construction, not more than about 100,000 dollars, then mortgages would be just as cheap, etc.

But there is a deep reason why this doesn’t happen: BECAUSE WORK TODAY IS WORTHLESS, NOT NEEDED, NOT IMPORTANT, NOT NECESSARY, A DOG AND PONY SHOW, IRRELEVANT, AUTOMATED AND OPTIMIZED AWAY, IS JUST A POWER RELATIONSHIP, STATUS RELATIONSHIP.

What counts is who can force who to pay what for what basic necessity: therefore expect health care to keep on costing more, housing to keep on costing more, water and food eventually to keep on costing more, etc.

Now go on, tell me that there is a “common good”; tell me that the economists and political scientists are researching how to improve society, how to make society a better place. What a bunch of BS.

Also, the US debt is 10 trillion dollars, that would be equivalent to 1 billion future jobs paying 10,000 dollars a year. Is there that work available ? Is there that amount of labor necessary in any possible productive endeavor ? NO, NOT A CHANCE IN HELL, ESPECIALLY SINCE THE ECONOMIC SYSTEM IS TOTALLY HELL BENT ON AUTOMATING, OPTIMIZING AWAY AS MUCH WORK AS POSSIBLE, INCREASING “PRODUCTIVITY” (WHICH MEANS KILLING AS MANY JOBS AS POSSIBLE BY LETTING ONE GUY DO THE WORK OF AS MANY AS POSSIBLE), COMPETITION, INNOVATION (WHICH MEANS FINDING WAYS TO GET MORE PRODUCT AND MORE RESULTS WITH LESS EFFORT, THERE GOES OTHER THOUSANDS JOBS OUT OF THE WINDOW!).

We need huge public-private projects such as millions of skyscrapers, rockets to mars, high speed trains, you name it and Free Salaries and Cheap Rents and Hobby Factories having Free Work. Or, alternatively, get rid of all computers and get millions of people back to doing everything by hand, writing all the contents of computers and databases by hand, by pen and paper, A huge paper based internet, kill automation and get people working.

Check out:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174961

"Now, go on, say that we have overpopulation, peak oil, debts, etc. We don’t, all of these scares are not even a blip on the radar in the greater scheme of things. There is plenty of oil still left and there are and will be many work arounds for this. Why is the life style of people much better in Manhattan, surrounded by hundreds of thousands of people compared to the small town in Kansas having only 2,000 people ? Because more people is a resource, means more exchanges, means more wealth, more diversity, more possibilities, etc. There are not too many people, there are too few, the earth can host thousands of trillions, but the population will probably peak at about 15 to 20 billion which is nothing at all. If there were all of these important debts, then half the world would be in an all out depression, but the economy of the world is growing by 4 % a year, so there are no debts, only a bunch of lies and make believe constrictions and interdictions everyone buys into so the rich and capitalists can keep on hogging as much money as possible while taking away as much from the weaker classes, like laying off teachers, increasing the age of pensions, etc. All of this is totally useless and just serves a purpose for the ruling classes.

And most of all, we have millions of people idle, kept from work, bored frustrated people that would like to exercise their will power by simulating a winning game by attaching the wheels to cars in hobby factories. With all the millions of idle people worldwide, we could build all the cars in the world and a skyscraper to the moon in a day with only hobby factories and they could express their will power and satisfy their need to win this detached simulation, all for free, as in free work, no need to pay, they would pay you to spend an hour or two in a hobby factory.

Therefore, Free Salaries, Cheap Rents, and Hobby Factories having Free Work."

This also demonstrates how the system creates debt: because it can create free wealth automatically, it is a huge excess capacity system, generates wealth and production with very little labor input. It can generate debts, consumption, but it can’t generate jobs, at least not real productive jobs.

And that is the contradiction the economy is in, and people can’t see this, all of the economists can’t see through this, we no longer live in a simple cause and effect system, of linear labor, so much input so much output. False, the system is totally non linear, with huge amplifications, economies of scale, with automation, robots, optimizations, etc. Work can no longer be produced in this system but wealth and products of all kinds from all productive endeavors (even services) can be produced in ever more quantities with fewer and fewer workers.

And people just can’t wrap their heads around this, just can’t believe it, just can’t accept a simple non linearity: we get products but we don’t need labor, end of story. This is the result of a Technological Economy.

So the mathematical solution to this is simple: Free Salaries and Cheap Rents. But since no one can accept this because of some moralistic - religious stance against a “free lunch”, all the wealth, in the form of trillions of dollars is hogged up by the rich and capitalists that have been choking and vomiting on it for years now. And they have been accumulating trillions upon trillions for decades now, it is unbelievable! And they will keep on choking and vomiting on more and more trillions as everyone continues in the “punishment mode” against the weaker classes: demanding that ever more workers be layed off because they are not “productive”, raising the retirement age of people “so they can work more” (we need young people working, not old people!), hike up the prices of colleges in the UK (pure punishment mode), etc.

19

Check out:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=174961

and

kunstler.com/blog/2011/04/gaming … asses.html

JHK, as do most here and in general, has a particular Large Scale Economic model he thinks is operating: one where oil is the dominating resource that conditions all of the others and all productive endeavors, where this resource is finishing or limited and where the society and economy is destined to become a “World Made by Hand”, as if history has a precise predetermined path (just like Marx used to think that history will end up necessarily in Communism, or just like the Globalization gurus think that history will end up with a United States of the world, all countries just like New Jersey).

JHK doesn’t understand technology. Most here do not understand the real Large Scale Economic Model that is operating: this model is the Technological Economy that is constantly optimizing and becoming more efficient at producing all kinds of products, real or perceived (services, IPADS) in all possible productive endeavors.

Technology, just like work, labor, corporations, manufacturing is not a fixed entity: it is always adapting, changing, it is a process in continuous evolution and interaction. People also adapt in all kinds of ways, change, solve problems. etc. So even if oil finishes, you can be sure that there are many other solutions even if partial at hand, and they will be used, if minerals, land, food “finishes”, there are other solutions and processes at hand, cars can be recycled, food created with genetic engineering, etc. Obviously the processes are complex, difficult to follow, each sector is specialized, there are all kinds of experiments and research being done. So people are mostly unaware of all of this.

So the system will continue just as it is now, only will become richer and richer, more product more services but with one very important exception: LESS REAL PRODUCTIVE WORK AND LESS LABOR NEEDED.

And this is exactly what is creating all the problems on wall street, the subprime bubble, all kinds of bubbles, all kinds of instabilities, conflicts, etc. I could care less who robs what, who broke the rules, etc. Punishing them or changing the rules won’t do anything for anybody. It is all really irrelevant, the system just creates huge chunks of free cash that is hanging around and people try to get some.

The system creates wealth with less and less labor needed, there is more and more money in the hands of banks and rich people, this money needs to find a return on investment and creates bubbles and chaos.

The real large scale problem that is facing us is not resource limitation, or overpopulation or debts: it is how to channel the money to more and more people, even if there is no real productive labor needed and necessary anymore.

This is the problem, the solution is, as I have repeated many times, Free Salaries, Cheap Rents, Hobby Factories with Free Work, Large Public - Private projects hiring millions by letting them build millions of Skyscrapers, Rockets to Mars, High Speed Trains etc. so that all the excess capacity the Technological Economy generates does not suffocate the rich with trillions and does not degenerate in wars and fights and conflicts of everyone against everyone, in a fight amongst the poor.

20

Nameta9,

Your posts in this thread are off-topic. Please create a new thread for those posts or use one of your existing threads, you have plenty to choose from.

I’ll give you twenty-four hours to do that, and then your most recent two posts in this thread will be deleted.